ASB/WI: WWII - Germany Declares War on Japan After Pearl Harbor

Simple:

What if Hitler, through a random stroke of sanity, saw the writing on the wall regarding the true war production potential of the US, and in an effort to appease the US public, decides to declare war on Japan in an act of tacit solidarity.

Would this have subsequently prevented a war between the USA and Germany?

Could Germany bargin for some minor/major L-L in a war with the common enemy of Japan?

Thoughts?
 
Kudos for a very original thought here on this forum. ASB-ish territory though. Tripartite stuff had already been worked out between the Axis powers...not that Hitler was known for being good to his word or anything...
 
If I recall correctly, there was a thread on here a while ago postulating the same idea.
In short, it'd of done Hitler no favors as the US by that point was unofficially at war with them as it was and only looking for a reason to make it official.
 
The POD you need is for the Japanese-German alliance to never happen and for them to continue supporting the Nationalist Chinese. The unofficial war probably still becomes hot, but there's then no guilt by association like there was with Pearl Harbor.
 
The POD you need is for the Japanese-German alliance to never happen and for them to continue supporting the Nationalist Chinese. The unofficial war probably still becomes hot, but there's then no guilt by association like there was with Pearl Harbor.

Why?

Germany at time treated alliances and agreements like trash.
Why would Hitler, who was always the pragmatist, feel obligated to honor anything that didn't suit his needs at any given time.

With the violation of the Munich agreement, and the violation of the Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, would it be totally ASB for Hitler to violate the Triparte Agreement and again pull a diplomatic coup, at least with the US public?
 
"Gee, thanks Mr. Hitler. Are you also going to stop sinking American ships and destroying American property now? And do you think it's ok if we sell this stuff to Britain? No? Aww, well that's unfortunate."
 
Simple:

What if Hitler, through a random stroke of sanity, saw the writing on the wall regarding the true war production potential of the US, and in an effort to appease the US public, decides to declare war on Japan in an act of tacit solidarity.

Would this have subsequently prevented a war between the USA and Germany?

Could Germany bargin for some minor/major L-L in a war with the common enemy of Japan?

Thoughts?

Why would they do this? Hitler hated the US (unlike the British, for whom he had a grudging respect for), and Germany had spent the last few years building Japan up as an ally. Him declaring war on Japan isn't a "sudden bout of sanity", it's him being even more crazy.

On top of that, how is Germany going to fight Japan? Germany has no colonies in the region, the Kriegsmarine is rapidly on its way to enjoying its new home on the bottom of the Atlantic, and there's no way in hell that even if the Germans did this, the British or the Americans would give them Lend-Lease support. If anything, this would accelerate the July 20 plotters, since anyone with half a brain would see that Hitler DOW'ing on one of Germany's closest allies to curry favor with a de facto adversary would demonstrate even more that he was a fucking lunatic driving Germany over the edge.
 
Why would they do this? Hitler hated the US (unlike the British, for whom he had a grudging respect for), and Germany had spent the last few years building Japan up as an ally. Him declaring war on Japan isn't a "sudden bout of sanity", it's him being even more crazy.

Fair.

But Devils Advocate:

The exact same could be said of Hitler's relation to the USSR with Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, in addition to the trade agreements. German officers even trained with the Red Army throughout the 1930s, yet Hitler hated Bolshevism more than any other political ideology.

And are you really arguing that Hitler DOWing on Japan RATHER THAN the US is more crazy?


On top of that, how is Germany going to fight Japan? Germany has no colonies in the region, the Kriegsmarine is rapidly on its way to enjoying its new home on the bottom of the Atlantic, and there's no way in hell that even if the Germans did this, the British or the Americans would give them Lend-Lease support. If anything, this would accelerate the July 20 plotters, since anyone with half a brain would see that Hitler DOW'ing on one of Germany's closest allies to curry favor with a de facto adversary would demonstrate even more that he was a fucking lunatic driving Germany over the edge.

the Op talked about tacit solidarity, similar to the way Ecuador DOW'd on Germany in last few months of WWII.

Now as far as more involved assistance, one could postulate whether germany could reposition subs from the Atlantic help US shipping in the pacific, or whether US officers could train in Germany. Totally ASB territory (Hence it being in the title) but that's why I asked what others thought.
 
You need to stop posting these ASB/WI in this forum. If you put that something is ASB then it should go in the ASB forum, pure and simple.
 
There has been some discussion of this odd possibility. What good is a declaration of war unless Germany can follow that up with real military efforts when it is half a world away from Japan and completely surrounded by enemies? My own take is that the US government and people would react favorably to this only if Germany also took concrete steps to couple this proposed alliance against Japan with and to the European War, including the full restoration of French sovereignty, withdrawal from the Soviet Union, and establishment of an independent Poland. How likely is that?

The above would be necessary, since a Germany fighting Britain and the USSR is in no position to assist the US in any way in a war against Japan. It would be interpreted as a cynical and meaningless gesture.

Absent an end of the European War, the US would just ignore the German action, reject any proposed alliance against Japan, and wait for events to play out in Europe that eventually provide justification for declaring war on Germany.

Now wouldn't that be a hoot. Now Germany would be at war with Japan as well as everyone else. Interesting to imagine how Herr Goebbels would try to spin all this
 
Fair.

But Devils Advocate:

The exact same could be said of Hitler's relation to the USSR with Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, in addition to the trade agreements. German officers even trained with the Red Army throughout the 1930s, yet Hitler hated Bolshevism more than any other political ideology.

And are you really arguing that Hitler DOWing on Japan RATHER THAN the US is more crazy?

Yes, it is that crazy. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was an agreement both sides knew was just some stopgap before they tried to kill each other, Hitler was just faster than Stalin on the draw.

The Triparite Pact (to which Japan was a member of) was a major military and strategic alliance, breaking that would be bugfuck crazy, even for Hitler.

the Op talked about tacit solidarity, similar to the way Ecuador DOW'd on Germany in last few months of WWII.

Now as far as more involved assistance, one could postulate whether germany could reposition subs from the Atlantic help US shipping in the pacific, or whether US officers could train in Germany. Totally ASB territory (Hence it being in the title) but that's why I asked what others thought.

But the Americans are currently shipping millions of tons of arms to Great Britain, who is currently at war with Germany. Asking Germany to reposition it's sub force is asking them to concede the Battle of the Atlantic and their U-Boat campaign against the US, which is essentially asking them to leave Great Britian alone while they bomb German (and Vichy French) ports and factories. No way in hell will the Nazi's accept.

And I have to echo what Napoleon said, if you know this is ASB, post it in the ASB forum.

There has been some discussion of this odd possibility. What good is a declaration of war unless Germany can follow that up with real military efforts when it is half a world away from Japan and completely surrounded by enemies? My own take is that the US government and people would react favorably to this only if Germany also took concrete steps to couple this proposed alliance against Japan with and to the European War, including the full restoration of French sovereignty, withdrawal from the Soviet Union, and establishment of an independent Poland. How likely is that?

The above would be necessary, since a Germany fighting Britain and the USSR is in no position to assist the US in any way in a war against Japan. It would be interpreted as a cynical and meaningless gesture.

Absent an end of the European War, the US would just ignore the German action, reject any proposed alliance against Japan, and wait for events to play out in Europe that eventually provide justification for declaring war on Germany.

Now wouldn't that be a hoot. Now Germany would be at war with Japan as well as everyone else. Interesting to imagine how Herr Goebbels would try to spin all this

Exactly. Germany gains nothing and risks losing even more by DOW'ing Japan. It's absolutely nonsensical.
 
You need to stop posting these ASB/WI in this forum. If you put that something is ASB then it should go in the ASB forum, pure and simple.

All he should have done is not said "ASB/WI". Although very implausible, Hitler doing this does not require the intervention of gods or space aliens and it does present some interesting questions.
 
It is not just the USA that is affected. What about the UK/Empire and the Dutch? They are also at war with Japan.

If Germany does this, does Italy do so as well? How about the other EuroAxis countries?

Germany can offer the USA nothing in a war against Japan. I suppose U-boats could operate against Japan, but where will they base out of? India? Australia? And what happens if a British ship or plane encounters a U-boat in the Far East?
 
Germany can offer the USA nothing in a war against Japan.

This is the key here. Why would Germany take this, admittedly symbolic, gesture of solidarity with their potential (actual?) foe against one of limited number of their friend(lish) country.

Beside Hitler would not want to declare war in which Germany is a passive side. It was not in his nature. And he was glad to have Japan drawing attention from Europe.
 
This is the key here. Why would Germany take this, admittedly symbolic, gesture of solidarity with their potential (actual?) foe against one of limited number of their friend(lish) country.

Beside Hitler would not want to declare war in which Germany is a passive side. It was not in his nature. And he was glad to have Japan drawing attention from Europe.

Well my question would be regarding the reaction of the US public at large.

While top people clearly saw that war with Hitler would be the only way stop him, the masses still saw Hitler and the war in Europe through neutralitist eyes, i.e,most didn't care to much (or enough to fight) over the war with the UK and USSR

If Hitler in turn decided to DOW symbolically only, the US public might have viewed him in an even more positive light.

I'd argue this alone could have absolutely affected the chances of the US entering into a hot war with Germany, most likely negating it as a possibility for a number of years.

And while Germany had little offer materially, they absolutely could offer strategic/tactical Intel into the troop training and military technology of the IJA as the Nazis assisted in the development of both.
 
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shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
Germany sides with China over the Second Sino-Japanese War, souring relations between Japan and Germany. When war is declared, hoping to keep America off their back (Let's say Hitler had a brief moment of lucidity), Hitler declares War on Japan. Given how far away Japan is, Hitler won't actually have to commit anything, although this can get messy for China.
 
Germany sides with China over the Second Sino-Japanese War, souring relations between Japan and Germany. When war is declared, hoping to keep America off their back (Let's say Hitler had a brief moment of lucidity), Hitler declares War on Japan. Given how far away Japan is, Hitler won't actually have to commit anything, although this can get messy for China.

But America is already on his back. Land-Lease, undeclared war, neutrality patrol, western hemisphere exclusion zone, etc, etc. American tanks, guns and airplanes in British hands, American oil in British tanks.
 
Hitler sends SS-units to fight alongside the marines at Tarawa. The USA find out that they dont have to send marines anywere, they cand send SS-troops.

SS fanaticals meet IJN/IJA troops that also ar fanatical.
 
how about this: instead of a DOW on japan after pearl, the germans on way or another learn about the japanese plans and decide the americans of what is coming towards them?
could this result in the european war becoming far less important to the us, and a japan first policy(or in this case a japan only)?
the moment the us thinks it will need all the war materials themselves the british might far less support.
 
how about this: instead of a DOW on japan after pearl, the germans on way or another learn about the japanese plans and decide the americans of what is coming towards them?
could this result in the european war becoming far less important to the us, and a japan first policy(or in this case a japan only)?
the moment the us thinks it will need all the war materials themselves the british might far less support.

How about the Germans offer a trade.

U-Boats, SS expeditionary forces, and Intel, cease fire with UK for LL to stop going to USSR.
 
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