Extended Maginot Line

Suppose the French had built the Maginot Line along France's border with Belgium and Luxembourg in addition to Germany.
 
Nope. Marshy soil, not enough money, no reason to cut Belgium off. Also impossible because of negative influence on infrastructure and industry of the region.
 

Lateknight

Banned
Nope. Marshy soil, not enough money, no reason to cut Belgium off. Also impossible because of negative influence on infrastructure and industry of the region.

What's the point of building fortifications everywhere except where you got attacked the last time around?
 
I would agree that extending the Maginot Line to the Channel would be very difficult. The region tend to flood and is most marshy Thus making any effort to build fortifications very expensive. In addition a lot of Frances industry is located in this region which would be disrupted by any effort to fortify it.
However some additional work should hadve been done. Also in view of the fact that Germany swept through the area in the First World War someone should have question the wisdom od having so much of France's industry that close to the border.
 
The French figured they'd fight in Belgium, of course. The Belgians had some pretty nifty forts to block the germans.

While eventually it proved to not-work, it wasn't a terrible idea to not extend the Maginot line and presume you'd just fight from behind the Belgian forts instead (sadly those missed the idea of paratroopers/gliders AND the Ardennes route).
 
I would agree that extending the Maginot Line to the Channel would be very difficult. The region tend to flood and is most marshy Thus making any effort to build fortifications very expensive. In addition a lot of Frances industry is located in this region which would be disrupted by any effort to fortify it.
However some additional work should hadve been done. Also in view of the fact that Germany swept through the area in the First World War someone should have question the wisdom od having so much of France's industry that close to the border.

Industry is a lot harder to move than borders are. Transport infrastructure, local resources, workforce etc. all are deciding factors and the right combination is tricky. You can't control where the coal and steel are deposited.

Meanwhile the French plan was always to prevent a re-run of WWI being fought on French soil so the French army would instead fight in Belgium counting on their fortifications to direct the Germans to attack somewhere else...it worked.
 
What the french failed to do was have there armies be more mobile so when the attack happened they could get to where they needed to be to stop advances.
 
What's the point of building fortifications everywhere except where you got attacked the last time around?
Because they won last time around, but lost the Franco-Prussian war? Forcing the Germans to come via Belgium means that the British are going to join the war on the French side - by no means guaranteed if the Germans come straight across the Rhine like they did in 1870.

However some additional work should hadve been done. Also in view of the fact that Germany swept through the area in the First World War someone should have question the wisdom od having so much of France's industry that close to the border.
Not a lot you can do about that - the industry is there because that's where the coal and iron ore was. They certainly encouraged growth elsewhere, but there is only so much you can do and uprooting industry wholesale makes the Maginot line look cheap.

What the french failed to do was have there armies be more mobile so when the attack happened they could get to where they needed to be to stop advances.
That's what the DLMs were there for. The issue is that they were committed in the far north by the Dyle-Breda plan. The French fought the Germans more or less to a halt at Gembloux with their mobile forces - the problem is that they were committed in the wrong place, and had to withdraw to avoid being cut off. The real problem for the French was that the battle moved much faster than their command system could keep up with.
 
The area in NOT floody and the area is NOT full of marshes. I know the area quite well, I just have to look from my window!

The main feature of the whole area is: flat, flat, flat.

Have a look at a map. You can split the area in three parts
- Dunkerque to Maubeuge: flat area. Hightest hill: 147m.
- Maubeuge to Sedan: hills, forests, some deep ravines, few roads. Quite easy to defend

To defend the area between Maubeuge and Sedan you don't need that a huge investement as you can use the Meuse as a natural AT line. You just need entrenched artillery (the fact is that a single working battery from the line can stop any attack). As for the maginot line don't forget that the forts themselves were top of the art in 1939 with crack troops. A single 75mm turred was able to stop any attack (up to 30 shells per minute per turret during days).

The problem was to not have linked the French and Belgium forts. A strong line along the Meuse on the Sedan - Namur - Liege line would have been an excellent choice.
 
Is it true that the French decided to extend the line to the English Channel after Belgium officially declared its neutrality IIRC in 1936?

If that is true could the French have the Line completed by the spring of 1940 if they had tried harder?

Or were they going as fast as they could in the first place? I.e. they didn't have enough spare raw materials and labour to do that, so accelerating the completion of the line would have meant slowing down something else.
 
IIRC the entire point of the line was to force the Germans into Belgium, where the French army could meet them halfway, with the resulting confrontation hopefully causing the destruction of Belgium rather than northern France. Of course, that plan didn't work out..
 
Nope. Marshy soil, not enough money, no reason to cut Belgium off. Also impossible because of negative influence on infrastructure and industry of the region.
No reason to cut Belgium off from what? Why would there be negative influence on infrastructure and industry of the region?
 
No reason to cut Belgium off from what? Why would there be negative influence on infrastructure and industry of the region?

Cut them off in the sense of 'You are left to fend off for yourself. You are welcome to retreat behind our fortifications if you lose, but no French army will come to your rescue, as we have our perfect fortification and will not sally out.'

Digging to the extent of Maginot line will necessarily cause displacement of industry, economic activity and infrastructure in densely populated region of Northeast France.

As for the soil, to respond to this, I read somewhere (was it Alistair Horne?) that the ground in the region was not able to withstand the fortification of the kind built in the Maginot line. I cannot quote the source right now, but I seem to remember that. That was one of the reason the French did not extend the line further north. However, there is also an issue of money.
 
The area in NOT floody and the area is NOT full of marshes. I know the area quite well, I just have to look from my window!

The main feature of the whole area is: flat, flat, flat.

Have a look at a map. You can split the area in three parts
- Dunkerque to Maubeuge: flat area. Hightest hill: 147m.
- Maubeuge to Sedan: hills, forests, some deep ravines, few roads. Quite easy to defend

To defend the area between Maubeuge and Sedan you don't need that a huge investement as you can use the Meuse as a natural AT line. You just need entrenched artillery (the fact is that a single working battery from the line can stop any attack). As for the maginot line don't forget that the forts themselves were top of the art in 1939 with crack troops. A single 75mm turred was able to stop any attack (up to 30 shells per minute per turret during days).

The problem was to not have linked the French and Belgium forts. A strong line along the Meuse on the Sedan - Namur - Liege line would have been an excellent choice.
Yet the only serious attack on the line was a German success.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Yet the only serious attack on the line was a German success.

When did that take place is the first question.
Did the interval divisions get involved is another.
It's one thing to be under attack and resist when you're the front line, another when France is collapsing behind you...
 
Yet the only serious attack on the line was a German success.

Simply not true, the lines held until AFTER the armistice. It was also shown the bigger forts could have withstand an atomic blast, those were amazing examples of architecture.

The problem, as far as I remember, was that building a line of forts alongside the Belgium frontier would have been interpreted as a belligerant move by the Belgians. The Belgians then said they would build a line of forts in case but were too trusting in their neutrality and botched the job.

Concerning the price, the Maginot line was only a tiny part of the French military budget, the problem was political and diplomatic


EDIT: I found a figure, Maginot line was (supposedly) 5.5% of French military budget every year of its construction. So, an effort yes, but nothing that bad it will bleed out the militaries.
 
Last edited:
Digging to the extent of Maginot line will necessarily cause displacement of industry, economic activity and infrastructure in densely populated region of Northeast France.

No. There is no such activity close to the border. The critical are is the coal region in Pas de Calais 60-80km from the border.

As for the soil, to respond to this, I read somewhere (was it Alistair Horne?) that the ground in the region was not able to withstand the fortification of the kind built in the Maginot line.

Just google "forts de Maubeuge". "forts de Lille". This is nonsense as the whole area is full of bunkers, forts, fortresses... The whole area is full of coal mines with deep (500-800m) wells. What is true is that a deep (50m) galery is more complicated to do as the water table is higher. The only swampy area is close to Dunkerque-Saint Omer (20km from the sea).

Simply not true, the lines held until AFTER the armistice. It was also shown the bigger forts could have withstand an atomic blast, those were amazing examples of architecture.

Right. The single attack occured on... the last of the last blockhouse on the west, the only one without artillery support. Men stayed in the blockhouse and died there. Nobody dared attack the forts themselves.
 
Top