Graf Spee sunk by French

As a spin off from the other Graf Spee thread I was looking into what other forces that were hunting the Graf Spee.

What if the Graf Spee avoided force G but ran into and was sunk by one of the predominantly French Forces . All of which seem to have a British contingent. So after this French led victory and stunning example of inter allied cooperation. What does this mean for the future......

The French nation and forces get a huge morale boost. Does Operation Catapult go ahead and if so are there different or worse repercussions.
 
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plenka

Banned
It is quite possible that this butterflies away the tragedy thet was Mers-el-Kebir, if the British side is more patient and more willing to negotiate with the Vichy French fleet. If Sommerville met personally with the French commander it could all be resolved peacefully, with those who wished to continue the fight joining them, others being interned in the USA. Maybe even French Africa joins the allies which would butterfly away the entire North African front? And from then, that influences the amount of forces being sent to Pacific, which will completely screw with the Japanese planning.
 
As a spin off from the other Graf Spee thread I was looking into what other forces that were hunting the Graf Spee.

What if the Graf So we avoided force G but ran into and was sunk by one of the predominantly French Forces . All of which seem to have a British contingent. So after this French led victory and stunning example of inter allied cooperation. What does this mean for the future......

The French nation and forces get a huge morale boost. Does Operation Catapult go ahead and if so are there different or worse repercussions.

Let's say that Graf Spee runs into Force X. The planes from Hermes damage her and then the Allied cruisers close in and finish her off. Allied morale goes up a tick as does inter-Allied confidence. As for Operation Catapult... I think that it's still going to happen in some form, just perhaps with a lot less bloodshed if the French Navy decide to trust their British opposite numbers just a little more.
 
Let's say that Graf Spee runs into Force X. The planes from Hermes damage her and then the Allied cruisers close in and finish her off. Allied morale goes up a tick as does inter-Allied confidence. As for Operation Catapult... I think that it's still going to happen in some form, just perhaps with a lot less bloodshed if the French Navy decide to trust their British opposite numbers just a little more.

I just wrote a 1000+ word 2 hour story about how Force L (Dunkerque, Bearn (w/ 29 AC), and 3 Cruisers found her off French Guiana on Christmas Day 1939 - only to accidentally close the website and lose the lot - you'd have thought that after all these years I would have learned to write these things in Word first....:mad:

I'm off to cry myself to sleep
 
I just wrote a 1000+ word 2 hour story about how Force L (Dunkerque, Bearn (w/ 29 AC), and 3 Cruisers found her off French Guiana on Christmas Day 1939 - only to accidentally close the website and lose the lot - you'd have thought that after all these years I would have learned to write these things in Word first....:mad:

I'm off to cry myself to sleep

Don't do that, I just got a lesson about Dunkerque being on convoy escort on December 27th (convoy from Halifax starting on the 20th), so she couldn't have been part of it.
 
As a spin off from the other Graf Spee thread I was looking into what other forces that were hunting the Graf Spee.

What if the Graf Spee avoided force G but ran into and was sunk by one of the predominantly French Forces . All of which seem to have a British contingent. So after this French led victory and stunning example of inter allied cooperation. What does this mean for the future......

The French nation and forces get a huge morale boost. Does Operation Catapult go ahead and if so are there different or worse repercussions.

I am glad to see we all accept Graf Spee can escape the first trap. As the forces patrolling the 3 degrees North had a mixed contingent, a interception including French participation could easily have happened (and it could not have happened).
Maybe the British closes in first (RN style) and comes in serious trouble and are then rescued by the French that sinks Graf Spee.
 
Don't do that, I just got a lesson about Dunkerque being on convoy escort on December 27th (convoy from Halifax starting on the 20th), so she couldn't have been part of it.

I'm assuming that if Cryhavoc was writing about a 25th December scenario then it means that Graf Spee has'nt been sunk OTL - which would mean that the hunting groups have'nt been dispersed to other duties

So the fact the Dunkerque in OTL was on convoy duty after GS was scuttled has no bearing on his writing
 
Don't do that, I just got a lesson about Dunkerque being on convoy escort on December 27th (convoy from Halifax starting on the 20th), so she couldn't have been part of it.

Of course - in OTL - this probably would have been different if the Graf Spee was not engaged on the 13th by Force H and later turned into a navigation Hazard off of Montevideo on the 18th - So effectively in OTL on the 14th Dec onwards the other hunting groups know where she is so they can be relased for other tasks.

No Battle of River plate on the 13th and the Hunting groups keep hunting!

Butterfly's and Hurricanes
 
I'm assuming that if Cryhavoc was writing about a 25th December scenario then it means that Graf Spee has'nt been sunk OTL - which would mean that the hunting groups have'nt been dispersed to other duties

So the fact the Dunkerque in OTL was on convoy duty after GS was scuttled has no bearing on his writing

Exactly - What scotty just wrote!
 
“The Battle for Christmas Day” Part one – ATL Sink the Admiral Graf Spee – 24th/25th

“The Battle for Christmas Day” Part one – ATL Sink the Admiral Graf Spee – 24th/25th December 1939

(Note: I appreciate that Entente and Panzerschiff where no longer in useage and WW1 and pre war terms but what the hell - Artistic licence....)

On the 12th Dec 1939 the Admiral Graf Spee was heading towards the coast of South America where she intended to ‘pick’ up allied shipping for a few days before heading back towards the Indian Ocean.

The intention was make the ‘Entente’ believe that 2 Panzerschiff where operating in the southern Hemisphere and not just one.

A sharp cry from one of the lookouts warned of a possible aircraft sighting to the south west.

The ship went to action stations while Officers and other lookouts scoured the sky’s looking for the offending aircraft but no one else saw anything and the general consensus was that the tired spotter had seen an albatross and much ribbing ensued

After 20 minutes the crews were stood down but Langsdorff was now worried

Was the spotter seeing things or was it a British or French Spotter plane and even now one of the hunting groups was descending on his position?
Reluctantly the Captain ordered his ship to come about and headed off at flank speed, to the North East.

The Heavy Armored Cruiser was in dire need of an engine overhaul and a hull scrape and therefore flank speed was now not much better than 24 knots.
In the mean time he had a decision to make.

A quick conference between his senior officers and he was decided

Had they been spotted then shipping around South America would be seriously disrupted and no doubt one of the Entente hunting groups would be after them
Having operated off the Horn of Africa recently that to may also very likely have additional ships and aircraft out looking for them and slim pickings was expected as a result

So it was decided. They would head back into the mid South Atlantic for a week before steaming north and ‘Dip their toes’ into the West Indies before heading back south and into the Indian Ocean

(Langsdorff wasn’t to know it but his decision had prevented his likely discovery by Force H)

At sun down they reduced speed to night time cruising and changed course to head due east

Here they waited for several days before on the morning of the 18th Dec headed North intending to cut into the North Atlantic keeping 400 miles off the coast of French Guiana the ship doing its best impression of a USN Heavy Cruiser.

It was approximately Midday on the 24th that again a lookout reported an Aircraft to the North.

This time it wasn’t the imaginings of a tired sailor

The plane one of 9 quite obsolete Levasseur PL.10 Carrier-borne reconnaissance aircraft from the French Navies only Aircraft Carrier Bearn was not fooled by the Graf Spees disguise and identified the ship almost immediately and sent a signal back to the carrier.

The carrier Bearn was part of Force L comprising, in addition to herself 3 light cruisers and the Modern Battle Cruiser Dunkerque.

Force L was currently just over 160 miles North North-West of Graf Spees position having been conducting anti raider ptrols for a long and very boring month
The report galvanised the Admiral in charge and he immediately ordered the Dunkerque and 2 of the Cruisers to go to flank speed and set course to intercept the German Raider.

The remaining Cruiser was to remain with the carrier who could just about make 21 knots on a good day –although they too cranked on as much speed as they could.

The Commander of the Carriers air group immediately ordered a fresh spotter aircraft to take off in order to relieve the current one and then began to plan a strike with his 8 Serviceable Levasseur PL.7 torpedo planes.

Back at the German Panzerschiff her Captain quickly realized that the game was up and that – given the type of aircraft shadowing him he was probably facing a French Carrier and spoke to his 2 Arado pilots.

After consulting various intelligence guides both pilots agreed that the Aircraft was very likely an obsolete Levasseur Scout plane and that their own Arado AR 196 float plane, was both considerably superior in performance as well as armament.

Langsdorff quickly decided his next somewhat desperate throw of the dice and ordered the ready Aircraft to launch and intercept the scout plane.

After a short argument in which rank was pulled the senior pilot and observer boarded the Arado starting its engine and its 2 man crew awaited the order to launch.

Pausing only for the French Aircraft to momentarily disappear into a cloud the Catapult accelerated the float plane off the ship and it started to climb hard under full military power.

Unfortunately for the 3 man French Crew they had missed the launch and 3 minutes later the single engine scout was shredded by 20mm cannon fire and the scout on fire plunged into the ocean.

Pausing only to recover the Arado the Graf Spee Changed course and headed off again at ‘flank speed’ to the East hoping to avoid further discovery until nightfall – some 5 hours away.

TBC
 
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Of course - in OTL - this probably would have been different if the Graf Spee was not engaged on the 13th by Force H and later turned into a navigation Hazard off of Montevideo on the 18th - So effectively in OTL on the 14th Dec onwards the other hunting groups know where she is so they can be relased for other tasks.

No Battle of River plate on the 13th and the Hunting groups keep hunting!

Butterfly's and Hurricanes

IOTL dunkerque sailed from Brest for Halifax on December 11th and arrived on the 17th.
Her cargo were cases of gold for the Bank of France!!!
As this transport started before Graf Spee was spotted, and considering her cargo she's got to be in Halifax on the 17th. Maybe not impossible, but not the most likely ship to appear ITTL.
Agreed, she might not appear in TC2.
 
IOTL dunkerque sailed from Brest for Halifax on December 11th and arrived on the 17th.
Her cargo were cases of gold for the Bank of France!!!
As this transport started before Graf Spee was spotted, and considering her cargo she's got to be in Halifax on the 17th. Maybe not impossible, but not the most likely ship to appear ITTL.
Agreed, she might not appear in TC2.

I guess the Gloire gets to deliver the gold on her own!
 

Saphroneth

Banned
IOTL dunkerque sailed from Brest for Halifax on December 11th and arrived on the 17th.
Her cargo were cases of gold for the Bank of France!!!
As this transport started before Graf Spee was spotted, and considering her cargo she's got to be in Halifax on the 17th. Maybe not impossible, but not the most likely ship to appear ITTL.
Agreed, she might not appear in TC2.
Perhaps all that's needed as a PoD is that the hunting groups are shuffled around a bit? That would mean the presence of Dunkerque can be the "allowable" PoD.
 

The Arado had broken down on the 11th and was thrown overboard. Nice start none the less.

Just keep in mind that Langsdorff cared for his crew and that the "fight to the last shell" order was not given until after the Spee scuttled herself.

„Ich lasse uns doch dort draußen auf See nicht von einer Übermacht zusammenschießen. Mir sind 1000 junge lebende Menschen lieber als 1000 tote Helden“ Taken from the German wiki.
Should be roughly, "I won't let us be shot to pieces from a superior force out there. I prefer 1000 young, living men over 1000 dead heroes.

So a final stand like Bismarck or Scharnhorst against overwhleming odds with no hope of victory would be rather out of character. He wouldn't hand over his ship, of course, but the lives of his man would come before some honor nonsense.
 
“The Battle for Christmas Day” Part Two – ATL Sink the Admiral Graf Spee – 24th/25th

Using dead reckoning and some guess work the 2nd Levasseur PL.10 reached the area of the expected rendezvous with the Aircraft they were supposed to relieve only to find more empty ocean - the crew wasted another 15 minutes running a search pattern before sending a report back to Force L that both the scout plane and the enemy heavy Cruiser where gone.

The French Admiral immediately ordered all available scout planes to blanket the area and the Bearn launched all 5 available PL.10s as well as 4 of the Dewoitine 371 fighter planes - all 3 Cruisers as well as the Dunkerque launched 5 more float planes between them

The Air group commander held his 8 serviceable PL7s and their crews back intending to use them as the core of a strike on the Enemy raider once she was found.

It is here that the French Commanders very nearly lost their quarry

The assumption was that the Panzerschiff had headed south or South West towards the Coast of Brazil.

Accordingly the aircraft fanned out flying to the furthest point that they calculated the Graf spee could have sailed - from the 2 o'clock position tot he 9 o'clock from here last recorded location and then flying a patrol pattern back towards her last reported position.

Only the Officer commanding the small group of Amphibian Aircraft on board the Battle Cruiser Dunkerque disagreed and subsequently abandoned his assigned arc and turned his Loire 130 to the east instead.

So it was something of a surprise when the Senior officers of Force L were given a sighting report some 55 miles east of the Graf Spee's last known location.



It became quickly apparent that with the Graf Spee's estimated speed of 24 knots the Dunkerque and 2 Cruisers would not catch the enemy ship before nightfall - being almost 100 miles north West of her and the only chance Force L had now of catching her before she disappeared into the night was vested in 8 obsolete torpedo planes currently being staged on the Béarn's flight deck.

With less than 2 hours left before sun down the French Carrier put on as much power as she could and turned into the wind.

1 by 1 her somewhat meagre strike group of 8 PL7s, 2 PL10s and 4 of the Dewoitine 373 fighter planes launched in to the Afternoon sky and headed South East.

Back on board the Graf Spee Captain Langsdorff and his crew were feeling increasingly more confident as the ship fled further to the East and the Sun dropped ever closer to the Western Horizon

They were completely unaware that a single Loire 130 was shadowing them - keeping below the horizon some 15 miles astern and only 'popping up' every 3 or 4 minutes to confirm the Cruisers location.

As the sun dipped ever further towards the sea the crew of the shadowing aircraft started to increasingly worry that the strike was late, or it had missed the rendezvous completely.

Less than 40 minutes of day light remained

TBC

pl7t2b2_160.jpg
 
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The Arado had broken down on the 11th and was thrown overboard. Nice start none the less.

Just keep in mind that Langsdorff cared for his crew and that the "fight to the last shell" order was not given until after the Spee scuttled herself.

„Ich lasse uns doch dort draußen auf See nicht von einer Übermacht zusammenschießen. Mir sind 1000 junge lebende Menschen lieber als 1000 tote Helden“ Taken from the German wiki.
Should be roughly, "I won't let us be shot to pieces from a superior force out there. I prefer 1000 young, living men over 1000 dead heroes.

So a final stand like Bismarck or Scharnhorst against overwhleming odds with no hope of victory would be rather out of character. He wouldn't hand over his ship, of course, but the lives of his man would come before some honor nonsense.

Other than being an "enemy of my country" - I have a great deal of respect for the German Captain. He seemed to embody the best traits of a Sailor and a Gentleman.

I do wish that he had not taken his own life - Germany needed men like him after the war.

As for the Arado - So it did!

Did she not carry a pair of aircraft?

She is listed as carrying 2 Float planes with 1 Catapult - although I appreciate that there was many occasions where warships did not carry their full complement of float planes I would have thought that a raider operating away from a home base would do so.
 
Other than being an "enemy of my country" - I have a great deal of respect for the German Captain. He seemed to embody the best traits of a Sailor and a Gentleman.

I do wish that he had not taken his own life - Germany needed men like him after the war.

As for the Arado - So it did!

Did she not carry a pair of aircraft?

She is listed as carrying 2 Float planes with 1 Catapult - although I appreciate that there was many occasions where warships did not carry their full complement of float planes I would have thought that a raider operating away from a home base would do so.

Alright, I was just worried that this would take the "the German captain/admiral makes his final stand and 95% of the crew end up dead" route.

To the best of my knowledge she only caried one. Whitley also mentions in "Deutsche Großkampfschiffe" that the Arado broke down ones in November, severly hurting Spee's ability to find any pry but that that damage could still be fixed, no such luck in December. He also states that only after her November damage was repaired Spee had a scout flying around and generally it gives the impression of there being only one.

I think there was something similar with the Bismarcks, having room for six planes but only carrying four.
 
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