PC: Irealand as "Lesser Britain?"

PoeFacedKilla

PoeFacedKilla

Banned
I was reading a book on Patricius of Bretton (St. Patrick) (the book is called How the Irish Saved the World) and in it Ireland is referred to as Lesser Britain and what we know as Britain is Greater Britain (obviously, where the term "Great Britain" comes from.)

So I guess my question is, when did Ireland stop being known as Lesser Britain and develop its own national identity?

Is it possible to keep them both known as "the Britain's?" and perhaps keep them as an actual united kingdom instead of Britain occupying Ireland?
 
Zorqal

Zorqal

PoeFacedKilla said:
I was reading a book on Patricius of Bretton (St. Patrick) (the book is called How the Irish Saved the World) and in it Ireland is referred to as Lesser Britain and what we know as Britain is Greater Britain (obviously, where the term "Great Britain" comes from.)

So I guess my question is, when did Ireland stop being known as Lesser Britain and develop its own national identity?

Is it possible to keep them both known as "the Britain's?" and perhaps keep them as an actual united kingdom instead of Britain occupying Ireland?
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I would think that it would have to have a more similar cultural identity to the English, either by having Anglo-Saxons move there as well, or have some mass migration of English, early enough that Ireland is ingrained, and enough of them to displace enough Irish that the English are dominant.
 

alex costa

Where is Irealand? I can't find it on the map:p

Joking aside I am pretty sure Ireland used to be called Hibernia not Lesser Britain.
 
PoeFacedKilla

PoeFacedKilla

Banned
Ran said:
I think so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany

That's where "Great Britain" and "Lesser Britain" really came from. I'm afraid the OP's book was simply wrong.
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it may have been, it was more of a cultural than historical book; I never knew where the phrase came from.

But the question still stands, is it possible to have the two (Ireland and Britain culturally similar enough at an early date that they could be one kingdom instead of the OTL relationship?
WanderingWanderer said:
Oooooh, I'm sure the Irish are proud and grateful to have Ireland be refered to as LESSER Britain!11!!hundred!!

:)
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Indeed I thought the same thing, but in an alt-TL where they've always just been the smaller of two Islands that were "British" things would be different.

Plus the term Lesser means smaller in size, not that the people are "lesser"
 
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'Ezana

OP's source is kind of right. Ptolemy referred to the larger island as great Britain (megale Britannia) and to Ireland as little Britain (mikra Brettania) in Almagest. But "little Britain" switched to Brittany by the Middle Ages.
 

Urcea

'Ezana said:
OP's source is kind of right. Ptolemy referred to the larger island as great Britain (megale Britannia) and to Ireland as little Britain (mikra Brettania) in Almagest. But "little Britain" switched to Brittany by the Middle Ages.
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Yeah, this. It was almost never used - it's a technical geographical term, little more.
 

The Ubbergeek

PoeFacedKilla said:
it may have been, it was more of a cultural than historical book; I never knew where the phrase came from.

But the question still stands, is it possible to have the two (Ireland and Britain culturally similar enough at an early date that they could be one kingdom instead of the OTL relationship?

Indeed I thought the same thing, but in an alt-TL where they've always just been the smaller of two Islands that were "British" things would be different.

Plus the term Lesser means smaller in size, not that the people are "lesser"
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Do take note (again) that the Bretons are more closely related to the 'old britishes' as Welshes than Irishes, culturally and linguistically; two different branches of the Insular Celtic subfamilly, Brythonic and Gaelic, and as Wikipedia said, Britanny was settled after the fall of Rome by brythonic sailors and warriors and settlers, so... It's a better fit than Ireland and Britain perhaps, unless somehow maybe the gaelic speakers would have been Brythonified in the past...
 
PoeFacedKilla

PoeFacedKilla

Banned
'Ezana said:
OP's source is kind of right. Ptolemy referred to the larger island as great Britain (megale Britannia) and to Ireland as little Britain (mikra Brettania) in Almagest. But "little Britain" switched to Brittany by the Middle Ages.
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well, at least i don't have to feel like a total idiot; what with spelling Ireland wrong :eek:
 

Socrates

Tyr said:
Yeah.
British nationalists in 19th century Ireland occasionally liked to use this term.
To this day in modern Ireland 'West Brits' is used as a joking insult for people from the posh part of Dublin.
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Famous British nationalists like Daniel O'Connell?

"The people of Ireland are ready to become a portion of the Empire, provided they be made so in reality and not in name alone; they are ready to become a kind of West Briton if made so in benefits and justice; but if not, we are Irishmen again."
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

"Briton", "Britain", etc. are cognate with "Brythonic", the 'p' Celtic language of Britain, surviving as Welsh and Breton.

The Irish are 'q' Celtic speakers, "Goidelic" or "Gaels".

For the Irish to self-identify as any kind of 'Briton' would be highly unlikely,

Note that the source offered for Ireland as 'lesser Britain' is Greek. It's entirely possible that ignorant foreigners could refer to Ireland that way, but not the Irish. IMO. (Perhaps in the same way ignorant foreigners insist on referring to the UK as 'England', or the Netherlands as 'Holland'.)
 

Tyr

"Briton", "Britain", etc. are cognate with "Brythonic", the 'p' Celtic language of Britain, surviving as Welsh and Breton.

The Irish are 'q' Celtic speakers, "Goidelic" or "Gaels".

For the Irish to self-identify as any kind of 'Briton' would be highly unlikely,

Note that the source offered for Ireland as 'lesser Britain' is Greek. It's entirely possible that ignorant foreigners could refer to Ireland that way, but not the Irish. IMO. (Perhaps in the same way ignorant foreigners insist on referring to the UK as 'England', or the Netherlands as 'Holland'.)
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Not many people are aware of that. Even celtic culture lovers tend to see the whole thing as one.
Gaelic Scots are perfectly fine with being Brits. As are the non-celtic English and Scots. Meanings of words change.



Socrates said:
Famous British nationalists like Daniel O'Connell?

"The people of Ireland are ready to become a portion of the Empire, provided they be made so in reality and not in name alone; they are ready to become a kind of West Briton if made so in benefits and justice; but if not, we are Irishmen again."
Click to expand...

Hurray for wikipedia.
 

Bee

Pytheas of Massalia, who sailed around Britain approximately 325 B.C., called Britain and Ireland the Pretanic Islands.
 
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