DBWI: Kandahar Not Carpet-Bombed

In the wake of the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA detention programs, perhaps it is time to also re-visit what happened on Day One of the War in Afghanistan:

The carpet-bombing of Kandahar. Pretty much, the first day of the war featured a massive raid by 60 B-52s and 60 B-1s, dropping dumb bombs, cluster bombs, and napalm.

So, what would have happened had Kandahar not been carpet-bombed? Would Saddam Hussein still have decided to fold when questions about his WMD programs came up in 2002? Would Qaddafi still have decided to comply when he was told to halt his WMD programs?
 
Well, without the vicious murder of tens of thousands of civilians, the United States wouldn't necessarily have transformed into the international pariah that they are today. Who knows, maybe even NATO would still exist.
 
In the wake of the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA detention programs, perhaps it is time to also re-visit what happened on Day One of the War in Afghanistan:

The carpet-bombing of Kandahar. Pretty much, the first day of the war featured a massive raid by 60 B-52s and 60 B-1s, dropping dumb bombs, cluster bombs, and napalm.

So, what would have happened had Kandahar not been carpet-bombed? Would Saddam Hussein still have decided to fold when questions about his WMD programs came up in 2002? Would Qaddafi still have decided to comply when he was told to halt his WMD programs?

Well, half a million people would still be alive, so there's probably a heckuva lot of butterflies from there. The goodwill that America had on 9/12 might have stayed with it longer than a few weeks, too - who knows what Bush could have done with that kind of international political capital?

Heh, an effective Bush. It's almost funny, but then you remember how much damage he did to his country, and the world, in just four years. This might be the only non-ASB POD that gets him re-elected, however.
 
Well, without the vicious murder of tens of thousands of civilians, the United States wouldn't necessarily have transformed into the international pariah that they are today. Who knows, maybe even NATO would still exist.

NATO was a US-fanclub. It was only a question of time before we Europeans saw the light and joined our one an only true European superpower. What is the USA today compared to the Eurasian union?

"Canadaified"

Just. Taste. That. Word.
 
The silver lining is that all these annoying courtroom dramas have folded. Even routine sessions of the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan in the Hague draw Saturday football ratings.
 
NATO was a US-fanclub. It was only a question of time before we Europeans saw the light and joined our one an only true European superpower. What is the USA today compared to the Eurasian union?

Well, the US still has the world's biggest navy - between them, the EDC can amass what, six carriers? Next to America's considerably larger amount... Though their global influence has gone right down. How many countries are still willing to host US bases?

Plus, speaking as an Irishman, the EDC hasn't been exactly great. We used to be neutral, now our Defence Forces get routinely deployed with EDC battlegroups. Like in Libya in 2012... More than a few of our men got killed taking Benghazi. And the Army Rangers got dragooned into anti-piracy operations. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's stuff that needed doing against less than pleasant people, but I really don't like Irish soldiers dying or being wounded on orders from Brussels...
 
NATO was a US-fanclub. It was only a question of time before we Europeans saw the light and joined our one an only true European superpower. What is the USA today compared to the Eurasian union?

"Canadaified"

Just. Taste. That. Word.

Considering that Canada is working with the Europeans more and more these days (and they are importing quite a lot of minerals and energy from us these days) and has a couple carriers from European designs, I'd say that Canadaified might not mean helpless. Besides, we all know what they dickhead Cheney said about us and the Europeans being cowards. Maybe so, Dick, but there's a reason your murderous ass is waiting on a prison sentence in The Hague.
 
OOC: Okay I have to ask, what possible reason would the US have to do something like this? Unless the government has become moustache twirling villains the only thing I can really think of is that the creation of laser-guided bombs have somehow been butterflied away, and that requires a point of divergence back in the late 1950s or 1960s.
 

jahenders

Banned
Sadly, your facts appear all wrong. Kandahar was bombed on day 1, but only 25 F/A-18s and a mix of 15 bombers were used. It was NOT carpet-bombing, but pretty precise strikes on AAA, command and control, and Taliban strongpoints. There WERE a few hundred civilian casualties (since the Taliban were hiding military targets near civilians), but not thousands.

So, a much better WI would be, "What if Kandahar were brutally carpet-bombed on day one of the war?"

In the wake of the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA detention programs, perhaps it is time to also re-visit what happened on Day One of the War in Afghanistan:

The carpet-bombing of Kandahar. Pretty much, the first day of the war featured a massive raid by 60 B-52s and 60 B-1s, dropping dumb bombs, cluster bombs, and napalm.

So, what would have happened had Kandahar not been carpet-bombed? Would Saddam Hussein still have decided to fold when questions about his WMD programs came up in 2002? Would Qaddafi still have decided to comply when he was told to halt his WMD programs?
 
Sadly, your facts appear all wrong. Kandahar was bombed on day 1, but only 25 F/A-18s and a mix of 15 bombers were used. It was NOT carpet-bombing, but pretty precise strikes on AAA, command and control, and Taliban strongpoints. There WERE a few hundred civilian casualties (since the Taliban were hiding military targets near civilians), but not thousands.

So, a much better WI would be, "What if Kandahar were brutally carpet-bombed on day one of the war?"

DBWI = "what if something that happened happened, or something that didn't happen, didn't happen", speaking from an alternate timeline where it is vice versa.

Here, the US apparently went psycho and removed a cityful of kebab.
 
Maybe so, Dick, but there's a reason your murderous ass is waiting on a prison sentence in The Hague.
If the US would finally extradite him along the rest of the Bush regime, which the current US administration unfortunately still refuses to do. These criminals have to be punished, and unless this happens there will never be a chance at reconciliation between America and Europe.

OOC: Okay I have to ask, what possible reason would the US have to do something like this?
OOC: None, thankfully. But hey, it's the premise of this thread, so let's play along. ;)
 
If the US would finally extradite him along the rest of the Bush regime, which the current US administration unfortunately still refuses to do. These criminals have to be punished, and unless this happens there will never be a chance at reconciliation between America and Europe.

I think the current US government is too divided and weak to act decisively. Its authority has effectively collapsed outside the Mid-Atlantic and New England. So the fact it *has* handed over Cheney and a dozen other politicians and military officers is no mean feat.

Things are looking up in the loyalist-controlled area of the US at least. Thanks to the Euro worth 5 US Dollars, the streets of New York and Boston are filled with European shoppers this time of year.

(OOC: After crippling UN-backed sanctions, the US economy went south, and the nation rapidly disintegrated to resemble 1920s China).
 

jahenders

Banned
Ah, then, in the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna, "Oh, never mind." Sorry. I thought it seemed odd that several folks appeared misinformed, but hadn't seen anything else explaining he DBWI concept.
DBWI = "what if something that happened happened, or something that didn't happen, didn't happen", speaking from an alternate timeline where it is vice versa.

Here, the US apparently went psycho and removed a cityful of kebab.
 
I think the current US government is too divided and weak to act decisively. Its authority has effectively collapsed outside the Mid-Atlantic and New England. So the fact it *has* handed over Cheney and a dozen other politicians and military officers is no mean feat.

Things are looking up in the loyalist-controlled area of the US at least. Thanks to the Euro worth 5 US Dollars, the streets of New York and Boston are filled with European shoppers this time of year.

(OOC: After crippling UN-backed sanctions, the US economy went south, and the nation rapidly disintegrated to resemble 1920s China).

OOC: Something tells me that the United States, which holds a permanent seat, isn't going to allow the UN to pass sanctions against it. Also, sanctions against the US would cause most of the other world economies to collapse as well.
 
The crazy thing is, the bombing of Kandahar was meant to be a propaganda exercise. Bush intended it as something big and showy to give the folks back home and say 'America has vengeance', and to tell the rest of the world 'Don't f*** with the United States'. But it ended up being more damaging to his country than the WTC attack could ever have been. Image-wise, at least.

One thing I'd say we definitely wouldn't have without the aftermath of Kandahar would be Gran Colombia. I'd say that Chavez would have ended up assassinated if not for America turning into a pariah nation. As things are, he managed to pull Colombia and Ecuador into a federal union with Venezuela...and the Chinese are investing there damn heavily. To say nothing of their military aid packages...
 
Cheney's reaction *after* Kandahar was very revealing. His first reaction after protests erupted was to send FBI to spy on them, and send thugs to harass them. This of course only increased opposition, which led to his attempts to usurp the states' National Guard to disperse the protests. Then of course there was the beating death of Father Alex Kelly in his rectory (OOC: fictional character). Finally, and thankfully, his attempt to go Tiananmen Square to crush the protest at the Mall resulted in his and Bush's arrest by US Marshals. It's sad the United States collapsed USSR-style afterwards.

OOC: This vaguely resembles Ukraine over the past year, minus Putin's stealth annexations. Did *anyone* expect Ukraine to balkanize a year ago?

OOC: Something tells me that the United States, which holds a permanent seat, isn't going to allow the UN to pass sanctions against it. Also, sanctions against the US would cause most of the other world economies to collapse as well.

OOC: let's say Bush simply walked out of the UN and dared it to actually pass the sanctions. They called his bluff. The Arab countries and Venezuela also embargoed oil exports to the US mostly out of fear they would be next.
 
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(OOC: After crippling UN-backed sanctions, the US economy went south, and the nation rapidly disintegrated to resemble 1920s China).

OOC: Something tells me that the United States, which holds a permanent seat, isn't going to allow the UN to pass sanctions against it. Also, sanctions against the US would cause most of the other world economies to collapse as well.

OOC: let's say Bush simply walked out of the UN and dared it to actually pass the sanctions. They called his bluff. The Arab countries and Venezuela also embargoed oil exports to the US mostly out of fear they would be next.

OOC: No offence meant to you, EternalCynic, but I'm skeptical about this too. I think a loss of US influence - countries having US bases removed from their soil, more vocal anti-Americanism, and the American public being disgusted to the point of major internal political change being affected (maybe) - together with economic problems is highly likely, but I'm not sure about a complete collapse... Again, no offence meant, and I'm probably wrong - and a wrecked America is a fun sandbox to play in regardless, I'm just not 100% sure if bombing Kandahar= The Balkanised States of America. Mind you, I'm the fella who in one DBWI reckoned Sino-Soviet War in 1969 led to America going neo-isolationist, kind of.
 
Cheney's reaction *after* Kandahar was very revealing. His first reaction after protests erupted was to send FBI to spy on them, and send thugs to harass them. This of course only increased opposition, which led to his attempts to usurp the states' National Guard to disperse the protests. Then of course there was the beating death of Father Alex Kelly in his rectory (OOC: fictional character). Finally, and thankfully, his attempt to go Tiananmen Square to crush the protest at the Mall resulted in his and Bush's arrest by US Marshals. It's sad the United States collapsed USSR-style afterwards.

OOC: Ah-ha. This only flashed up after I posted... Sorry, shouldn't have posted without the full story.
 
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