WI: Columbus sails under a Genoese flag?

Meshakhad · Nov 25, 2015

The POD is that in 1486, when Christopher Columbus proposed his "sail to the West to reach the East" plan to the leaders of his own home city of Genoa, they decide to go for it. Columbus arrives in the New World in December of 1486, and plants a Genoese flag.

How would the Italian merchant republics have colonized the New World? Would Spain have still gotten involved? Probably. Could Venice or the Hansa have turned their eyes to the west? Maybe. And if the Genoese were the ones to conquer the Aztecs and Incas, would Spain have been able to fund its wars with the Ottomans?

RiseofBubblez · Nov 25, 2015

Sorry but I don't see Genoa being in any position to fund Columbus when you look at them. In the 15th Century they came out of French domination and then lost Corsica to a revolt, Sardinia was taken by Aragon and they eventually lost pretty much all of their Eastern colonies to the Ottomans and it wasn't really until the early 16th Century that they started real economic recovery.

Amelikite · Nov 25, 2015

They might be short of ships capable of crossing the atlantic too.

Prince of Orange · Nov 25, 2015

Even if the Genoese managed to fund and supply a succesful expedition, their geographical position for exploration and colonisation of the Americas is horrible. The Spanish or Portugese can easily cut their access to the Atlantic by blockading the straits of Gibraltar.

Reader347 · Nov 25, 2015

Prince of Orange said:
Even if the Genoese managed to fund and supply a succesful expedition, their geographical position for exploration and colonisation of the Americas is horrible. The Spanish or Portugese can easily cut their access to the Atlantic by blockading the straits of Gibraltar.

Wouldn't have to be the straits, the Genoese didn't have many harbors. And I thinks those were silting.

Amelikite · Nov 25, 2015

The Genoese might have been in a horrible position to explore, but I don't think you can expect the Portuguese or Spanish to blockade the Genoa on speculation that they might send a geographically challenged explorer, off in what should have been a suicide mission, to China and Japan.

Prince of Orange · Nov 25, 2015

Amelikite said:
The Genoese might have been in a horrible position to explore, but I don't think you can expect the Portuguese or Spanish to blockade the Genoa on speculation that they might send a geographically challenged explorer, off in what should have been a suicide mission, to China and Japan.

True. The point I tried to make was that more powerful nations as Spain and Portugal would prevent the Italian citystates from profiting from such an expedition. They might laugh at the illfated attempt to try and reach China by sailing the wrong way, but would jump at the chanceto profit from the discovery.

Amelikite · Nov 25, 2015

Prince of Orange said:
True. The point I tried to make was that more powerful nations as Spain and Portugal would prevent the Italian citystates from profiting from such an expedition. They might laugh at the illfated attempt to try and reach China by sailing the wrong way, but would jump at the chanceto profit from the discovery.

Yes it did occur to me that you meant tha, but the thread was about Columbus sailing from Genoa so I thought I'd stick my oar in.
Besides which after Philip II had done with them, the Genoese would struggle to profit from the discovery of America anyway.

Dathi THorfinnsson · Dec 1, 2015

If Columbus set sail from Genoa,
1) where does he get Atlantic capable ships from?
2) where does he stock up supplies?
2a) If he tries sailing from Genoa to 'China', he's going to run out of supplies before he gets there. Even starting from Spain, he was running out fast when they sighted land.
2b) if he docks in e.g. Lisbon to revictual, are THEY going to let him go? Spain and Portugal don't have to blockade Genoa - they just need to prevent Columbus from using their ports.

I suspect that if he TRIED sailing for Genoa, he'd have failed.

Meshakhad · Dec 1, 2015

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
If Columbus set sail from Genoa,
1) where does he get Atlantic capable ships from?
2) where does he stock up supplies?
2a) If he tries sailing from Genoa to 'China', he's going to run out of supplies before he gets there. Even starting from Spain, he was running out fast when they sighted land.
2b) if he docks in e.g. Lisbon to revictual, are THEY going to let him go? Spain and Portugal don't have to blockade Genoa - they just need to prevent Columbus from using their ports.

I suspect that if he TRIED sailing for Genoa, he'd have failed.

Don't know about the first one, but would the Spanish or Portuguese really stop him? Was it routine to prevent foreign ships from docking? Especially if he stops not at Lisbon, but at another Spanish or Portuguese port so the crown might not even know right away.

Kevin Renner · Dec 2, 2015

Why does everyone always assume that the ships of the Med couldn't take the Atlantic. In my mind I would think the Med might have smaller waves but but the frequency is higher. Kind of like the difference between the North Atlantic and the Great Lakes. From the guys I've talked to off of freighters back in the day when we had a functioning port they hated coming into the Lakes. In heavy weather the high wave frequency pounded the hell out of them.