WI. No House of Habsburg?

Tin Time.

This maybe the biggest WI in the history of Europe, but I can't recall it being brought up before. So lets say the family dies off, or never got to the heights it did OTL. Easy enough before 1200 and less so as time goes by.
What are the pros and cons if this family never gained big time power?

How big will the butterflies get, would we even be living in a world anything like the one we know today?

It's a big one to think about, however type about this for a while!

The Habsburg (castle) was build around 1020/1030 by Radbot. Perhaps he chooses a different name for this castle. The Habsburgs probably descended from a branch of the Etichonen.

Not having Rudolf of Habsburg being elected as king of the Romans, would prevent the Habsburgs from gaining the duchies of Austria & Styria and a foothold in the eastern alpine region. It probably doesn't prevent the TTL king of the Romans to get into conflict with Ottokar II of Bohemia (his election by the other electors IMHO stays unlikely, since they were weary of the expansion of his powerbase).

At that time they were already a strong regional power, so like the in this period still counts of Württemberg, they might be able to become a duke (like Württemberg IOTL), but they won't be a major power in imperial politics.

As for the region initially other houses like the Zähringer and Kyburger were more important and others were initially of similar importance like the Lenzburgs. So one of these is likely to replace them in their regional role.

Hurr durr this is OTL, muh Pragmatic Sanction, etc.

In fact, this all depends on when the Habsburgs shuffle off their mortal coil. For instance, if we go really late, we could have Karl II, Archduke of Inner Austria, die without surviving sons. ITTL, the Austrian Habsurgs probably die out c.1621, and the Spaniards inherit Austria (except probably not, because of the whole Thirty Years War thing, plus the fact that nobody wants a united Habsburg empire). Zygmunt Waza is probably the best opponent to Philip IV, genealogically speaking, and that pushes the Thirty Years War into overdrive, exacerbating the religious conflict and expanding the theatre of war to a European scale. Then the Spanish Habsburgs incest themselves to death within a couple of generations.

If the PoD is 'King Rudolf I' dies young' or something of that era then obviously there's a very different sequence of events that has been fleshed out by Janprimus.

Just two replies?

It changes everything. The Habsburgs ruled both the HRE and the Spanish Empirre for centuries. If you remove them, everything will be different. France probably won't feel as encircled, the development of the HRE would be different, there'd be no Burgundian inheritance for Spain and therefore no Netherlands, etc, etc.. The differences just keep on coming. Removing one of the most influential houses in European history is going to produce immense amounts of butterflies.

The encirclement of France during that period was deliberate policy, the dynastic union wasn't. France during that period was the pre-eminent power in Western Europe and Castille-Aragon and Austria-Burgundy both had their disputes with France, they basically bundled forces to equal the balance. The dynastic union and not just an alliance made it easier to hold together.

Now everything depends on the PoD, however once France manages to establish itself as the pre-eminent western European power an occasional encirclement, depending on their foreign policy, does seem likely.

Also it was more like a Spanish inheritance for Burgundy. Whether or not there won't be a Netherlands/Low Countries in the first place depends on the house of Valois-Burgundy, which again in turn depends on the PoD.

So basically yes an immense amount of butterflies.

tallthinkev said:

Just two replies?

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The problem you have Tall Thin Kev, is that the House of Habsburg has been too wide spread to even say what the world would be like.

There has been at least one Habsburg to claim the title of:

• Holy Roman Emperor
• Emperor of Mexico
• King of the Romans
• King of Germany
• King of Italy
• King of Spain
• King of Sicily
• King of Naples
• King of Hungary
• King of BohemiaKing of Croatia
• King of Portugal
• King of Galicia and Lodomeria
• King of England
• King of Ireland
• King of France
• Grand Prince of Transylvania
• Archduke of Austria
• Duke of Burgundy
• Duke of Parma
• Count of Habsburg

So killing off Guntram "the Rich" whom most historians agree is the progenitor of the House of Habsburg in around 930 AD, would have major butterflies that would affect the next 1085 years, as it is not just people born in the Habsburg family you have to think of but also the daughters, who married into other families.

For example, King Albert II of Germany, Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia was an ancestor of Catherine the Great of Russia, so without Habsburg, the Russian royal family would be completely different.

Jonathan said:

• King of France

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Which one? (While Felipe II claimed England + Ireland jure uxoris and all other regions in your list have been ruled by Habsburgs, I fail to see which one claimed France. There were, however, a lot of Habsburg queens of France).

Circonflexe said:

Which one? (While Felipe II claimed England + Ireland jure uxoris and all other regions in your list have been ruled by Habsburgs, I fail to see which one claimed France. There were, however, a lot of Habsburg queens of France).

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Marie Louise of Austria, was married to Napoleon I with whom she, produced, Napoleon II, who was Emperor of France from 22 June 1815 – 7 July 1815, and is hailed as both from the House of Bonaparte and House of Habsburg.
A very brief ruler of France but a ruler all the same

but not King. It's Emperor.
There's a difference, Emperor means wars won, then wars lost.

Jonathan said:

Marie Louise of Austria, was married to Napoleon I with whom she, produced, Napoleon II, who was Emperor of France from 22 June 1815 – 7 July 1815, and is hailed as both from the House of Bonaparte and House of Habsburg.
A very brief ruler of France but a ruler all the same

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No. Napoleon II is a Bonaparte, just like Mary I is a Tudor, not a Trastamara.

It'd be interesting if Mary of Burgundy marries someone else.

A middle European empire is really likely even without the Habsburgs. Hungary would choose a foreign king because of the ottomans, these might be the alternate rulers of Austria, or the rulers of Bohemia or Poland.

Tibi088 said:

A middle European empire is really likely even without the Habsburgs. Hungary would choose a foreign king because of the ottomans, these might be the alternate rulers of Austria, or the rulers of Bohemia or Poland.

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When the Ottomans will arise (again depending on the PoD), then Poland, Bohemia and Austria will all be interested in supporting Hungary, not only in exchange for the right rewards, but also since otherwise they will be next.