How does US history change with a smaller State of Texas?

Nofix · May 22, 2015

Bit of an unwieldy title, but I hope it gets the point across.

Light Green was everything the Republic (and for a bit the state) of Texas claimed. The Dark Green was what it actually controlled and populated. The Light Green territories were cut back to the modern borders as part of the Compromise of 1850.

How would American history change if the Texas border was scaled back to the dark green section? What states would be formed out of the remaining land ceded to the Government? How would this impact the Civil War and Texas's relationship with the Federal Government?

Codae · May 22, 2015

Would the US really cut Texas back from the Rio Grande? It was a pretty powerful symbolic line marking the extremity of the annexed Texan territory, and I doubt anyone would ever consider the strip between there and the Nueces big enough to constitute a full-fledged state.

irishparadox · May 23, 2015

Codae said:
Would the US really cut Texas back from the Rio Grande? It was a pretty powerful symbolic line marking the extremity of the annexed Texan territory, and I doubt anyone would ever consider the strip between there and the Nueces big enough to constitute a full-fledged state.

Was basically going to say this. The area between the Nueces and the Rio Grande is going to end up being part of Texas. Otherwise, what the heck was the point of the Mexican War?

But still, a Texas without its western appendages has fewer oil fields, cowboys, and wide-open spaces. It would likely be whiter, poorer, and perhaps less unique in American culture.

Nofix · May 23, 2015

Good point, both of you...hm...how about something like this then?

A little crude but you see what I mean right?

David T · May 23, 2015

Henry Clay's *original* version of the Compromise of 1850, if taken literally, would have put Dallas in New Mexico! I know it sounds unbelievable, but read my post at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/-b5Epg4oRUc/KH06luAEsBcJ

100Fathoms · May 23, 2015

There was a lot of talk Antebellum of carving up all that green into 5 States in order to stuff 10 Slavocrat Senators where before there was but two.

I can only imagine what such a map would look like, or the Alternate Names of all the mini Texases.

Nofix · May 23, 2015

David T said:
Henry Clay's *original* version of the Compromise of 1850, if taken literally, would have put Dallas in New Mexico! I know it sounds unbelievable, but read my post at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/-b5Epg4oRUc/KH06luAEsBcJ

That would have been...interesting to say the least.

Now I want a map of that.

100Fathoms said:
There was a lot of talk Antebellum of carving up all that green into 5 States in order to stuff 10 Slavocrat Senators where before there was but two. I can only imagine what such a map would look like, or the Alternate Names of all the mini Texases.

Ay Dios mio!

They would have needed to bring in, like, every mildly populated Northern Territory for that to happen.

Driftless · May 23, 2015

Nofix said:
Ay Dios mio! They would have needed to bring in, like, every mildly populated Northern Territory for that to happen.

West Iowa anyone? Or the State of Yellowstone?

David T · May 23, 2015

Nofix said:
That would have been...interesting to say the least.

Now I want a map of that.

Here it is: The line running from El Paso (32 degrees) eastward straight through to the Sabine is what Clay proposed--assuming that he understood the "southern line of New Mexico" correctly. The line further north (the 34 degree line) is what some people think Clay "must have meant " It would deprive Texas of the Panhandle but give it what is today southeastern New Mexico.

Nofix · May 24, 2015

Driftless said:
West Iowa anyone? Or the State of Yellowstone?

They would have had to rush in Wisconsin, Michigan, maybe even lop of a piece of Virginia to justify that.

David T said:
Here it is: The line running from El Paso (32 degrees) eastward straight through to the Sabine is what Clay proposed--assuming that he understood the "southern line of New Mexico" correctly. The line further north (the 34 degree line) is what some people think Clay "must have meant " It would deprive Texas of the Panhandle but give it what is today southwestern New Mexico.

Interesting. I'm wondering how that would have interacted with the then largely unorganized Indian territory. You have the state of Texas, New Mexico Territory with some muscles, and Indian Territory all altered this early on.

Nofix · May 26, 2015

So I'm approximating Giga New Mexico, with the 32 degrees adjustment, would have looked something like this:

Yay or nay?

jahenders · May 26, 2015

In a political sense, one could posit a whole WI based on all states after the original 13 were limited in terms of some combination of size/population. That is if TX was 3-5 states, CA 2-3 states, FL 2-3 states, etc.

It would create a significantly different dynamic in congress and in elections.

Alternately, you could have some constitutional mechanism where any state (original or otherwise) could split if their population exceeded a certain percentage of the total US population. So, NY could split, CA, IL, TX, FL, OH, etc. There's a benefit to states splitting in that they get more senate representation, but there are also huge costs involved.

phx1138 · May 26, 2015

100Fathoms said:
There was a lot of talk Antebellum of carving up all that green into 5 States in order to stuff 10 Slavocrat Senators where before there was but two. I can only imagine what such a map would look like, or the Alternate Names of all the mini Texases.

Well, let's see... Brazos? Sinaloa? Cimarron? Balcones? [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Llano? [/FONT]Tejas?

David T said:
Here it is: The line running from El Paso (32 degrees) eastward straight through to the Sabine is what Clay proposed

Which puts Dallas in Oklahoma, doesn't it?

Does that also move Oklahoma's northern border south by about 140mi?

Dorozhand · May 27, 2015

Here's something interesting I doodled a while back. The northern part of Tamaulipas annexed is made into a state of Nueces, the region northeast of the Brazos is made a state, and the region around Houston is made into a state, all of them entering the union as slave states. In opposition, the north admits more free states out of the Mexican Cession, namely North California, South California, and New Mexico, which is made a state immediately out of the same borders as the Mexican territory.

Hierophant · May 27, 2015

I read Taylor wanted New Mexico adimitted or at least organized immediately. So I could see Texas losing all the lands it gained from New Mexico, but nothing else.

To loose the Rio Grande, it would require either the Mexicans keeping it, or the Republic of the Rio Grande succeeding.

phx1138 · May 27, 2015

Dorozhand said:
View attachment 255745

The Houston enclave, & Brazos & Neuces, look pretty small to be states...
It would seem to make more sense to split "Houston" in two (or three) between Nueces & Brazos &/or *Texas.

You might also move the borders & create *North & *South Louisiana, no?

Chris S · May 27, 2015

Nofix said:
Bit of an unwieldy title, but I hope it gets the point across.

Light Green was everything the Republic (and for a bit the state) of Texas claimed. The Dark Green was what it actually controlled and populated. The Light Green territories were cut back to the modern borders as part of the Compromise of 1850.

How would American history change if the Texas border was scaled back to the dark green section? What states would be formed out of the remaining land ceded to the Government? How would this impact the Civil War and Texas's relationship with the Federal Government?

Nofix said:
Good point, both of you...hm...how about something like this then?

A little crude but you see what I mean right?

I would imagine that this would be more likely:

Texas including all of the old province of Texas plus all of the areas claimed by Texas up to the Rio Grande but excluding Mexico's New Mexico Territory (so everything east and south of the line in red would be Texas):

JErosion · May 28, 2015

During the same time period there was also the short lived (from Jan 1840 to Nov of that year) Republic of the Rio Grande, It consisted of Coahuila, Nuevo Leon and Tamaulipas and the area of Texas stretching from the Rio Grande to Nuecus River.

Mexico was a huge mess at the time.

Zorqal · May 28, 2015

100Fathoms said:
There was a lot of talk Antebellum of carving up all that green into 5 States in order to stuff 10 Slavocrat Senators where before there was but two. I can only imagine what such a map would look like, or the Alternate Names of all the mini Texases.

Officially Texas still has the right to break up into five separate states, at any time it wishes. It's in the state's constitution. Now, whether they would ever do it or not, well, that's different. While technically in place to give the Texans more power in the central government, it would really just give five different states, each one looking out for itself so pretty much any real 'Texan' identity between Governors and representatives would probably be gone within governor or two. The regions are too varied to work together if they were different states. Hell, the state that ends up with the major cities (multiple would be in one state, they are so close together), would probably go Democrat, or at least a swing state, changing the politics of the whole country.

One division, proposed to congress after the Civil War, was the state of Lincoln, and it looked like this-

Mr. BoJangles · May 28, 2015

So a long while ago, I had toyed around with Texas and it's size. and a good compromise between the Republic and the Rio is the below.

Note that I made this in only five minutes just to show what I am trying to get across. Essentially, Texas had petitioned for annexation by the United States in the 1840's at the same time that they were stirring up tensions with Mexico. On the day that the United States accepted Texan annexation, Texas declared war with Mexico.

The scenario ended up with more of Mexico being lost to the US. But the Whig Party demanded that Texas be punished for their actions. and essentially limited Texas to the OTL Republic, but jumping the Nueces River to expand the border to the Rio Grande. Everything else west of that was considered "new territory"