AHC. Henry VIII joins the Eastern Orthodox Church.

tallthinkev · Dec 18, 2014

Kind of tin time.

What were the chances, if any, of Henry joining the Eastern Church after his excommunication by the Pope.

Of you go.

Darth_Kiryan · Dec 18, 2014

why and what exactly is in it for him?

Lalli · Dec 18, 2014

I don't see there much point. Orthodoxes might accept divorcing but not re-marriage. And why even Henry would think that?

Redhand · Dec 18, 2014

He is ousted from the throne and leaves England for Calais to try to get support, only for his ship to be attacked by pirates and taken prisoner and is taken on a roundabout trip through the Mediterranean before being banished to Corfu after the pirates start infighting and he escapes on a rowboat. There, he joins a monastery and learns Greek through his already sketchy knowledge of Latin, and becomes an Orthodox Monk, and nobody ever hears from him again.

This was an odd challenge.

funnyhat · Dec 18, 2014

Lalli said:
I don't see there much point. Orthodoxes might accept divorcing but not re-marriage. And why even Henry would think that?

Keep in mind, he never sought a divorce but an annulment, which is quite different. He wanted to have it decreed that his marriage to Catherine of Aragon was never lawful before God (because she had been his brother's widow) and thus, that it never existed.

Under different circumstances the Catholic Church could have granted this. It had annulled royal marriages before. It was more for political reasons that it could not do it for Henry.

Dathi THorfinnsson · Dec 24, 2014

Lalli said:
I don't see there much point. Orthodoxes might accept divorcing but not re-marriage. And why even Henry would think that?

1) The Orthodox Church does allow re-marriage - you just can't have more than 4 total, whether you lose them by death or divorce.

2) What's in it for Henry? He wants an autonomous, autocephalous church that doesn't to follow the orders of anyone outside England. Well, that's what the various national churches of Orthodoxy are. If he wants 'respectability' of being in a greater church, without interfering orders from outside, it would be a reasonable choice. The theological differences are pretty minor, and Henry would rather be Orthodox than Lutheran, say. (Of course, he got to have his cake and eat it, too, by inventing his own 'English Catholicism'.) As for things like married clergy and services in the 'vernacular', well those were allowed by the Orthodox (although, at the time, the 'vernacular' in all Slavic nations might have been Old Church Slavonic. I don't know when the Russian Orthodox church started using Russian.)
OT3H, from the Orthodox end, the deal is less good. Henry is clearly only going to make minimal concessions, and if they want to vet his priests for properly orthodox (i.e. Orthodox

) theology, Henry's not going to be very happy. And if he DOESN'T let them do it, England would end up with a highly unOrthodox Orthodoxy.
OT4H, the chance to stick it to the Pope, and have an official Orthodox Church in the west, might be too much for the Patriarch of Constantinople, who might get swayed by the politics of it.

Remitonov · Dec 25, 2014

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
1) The Orthodox Church does allow re-marriage - you just can't have more than 4 total, whether you lose them by death or divorce.

2) What's in it for Henry? He wants an autonomous, autocephalous church that doesn't to follow the orders of anyone outside England. Well, that's what the various national churches of Orthodoxy are. If he wants 'respectability' of being in a greater church, without interfering orders from outside, it would be a reasonable choice. The theological differences are pretty minor, and Henry would rather be Orthodox than Lutheran, say. (Of course, he got to have his cake and eat it, too, by inventing his own 'English Catholicism'.) As for things like married clergy and services in the 'vernacular', well those were allowed by the Orthodox (although, at the time, the 'vernacular' in all Slavic nations might have been Old Church Slavonic. I don't know when the Russian Orthodox church started using Russian.)
OT3H, from the Orthodox end, the deal is less good. Henry is clearly only going to make minimal concessions, and if they want to vet his priests for properly orthodox (i.e. Orthodox) theology, Henry's not going to be very happy. And if he DOESN'T let them do it, England would end up with a highly unOrthodox Orthodoxy.
OT4H, the chance to stick it to the Pope, and have an official Orthodox Church in the west, might be too much for the Patriarch of Constantinople, who might get swayed by the politics of it.

There is such a thing called Western Rite Orthodoxy (a relatively new concept compared to the timeline required here), which is basically an Eastern Orthodox church following the Latin Rite or other Western liturgies. A reverse Eastern Catholic church, basically. A simple name change from Anglican to Western Rite Orthodoxy might give Henry VIII exactly what he needs of his church while getting an Orthodox one. However, there is debate over whether a Western Orthodox church can be considered part of Eastern Orthodoxy in the first place.

meries · Dec 25, 2014

I thought many times about if Henry would of found Orthodox Christianity an attractive alternative to both Catholicism and potentially opening up England to Protestantism (which his break initially did until he pulled things back).

Dathi Thorfinnson basically makes all the points I was going to make. However, the biggest stumbling block for me personally is figuring out how to get Orthodox Christian thought into England for Henry know about it to make it a viable option to him, whether as Remitonov suggests a Western Rite Orthodox Chruch or a full-fledged Orthodox Church.

Blurgle · Dec 25, 2014

tallthinkev said:
Kind of tin time.

What were the chances, if any, of Henry joining the Eastern Church after his excommunication by the Pope.

Of you go.

He would have known of the existence of the Orthodox Church, but that's about it.

Just a Rube · Dec 25, 2014

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
1) The Orthodox Church does allow re-marriage - you just can't have more than 4 total, whether you lose them by death or divorce.

2) What's in it for Henry? He wants an autonomous, autocephalous church that doesn't to follow the orders of anyone outside England. Well, that's what the various national churches of Orthodoxy are. If he wants 'respectability' of being in a greater church, without interfering orders from outside, it would be a reasonable choice. The theological differences are pretty minor, and Henry would rather be Orthodox than Lutheran, say. (Of course, he got to have his cake and eat it, too, by inventing his own 'English Catholicism'.) As for things like married clergy and services in the 'vernacular', well those were allowed by the Orthodox (although, at the time, the 'vernacular' in all Slavic nations might have been Old Church Slavonic. I don't know when the Russian Orthodox church started using Russian.)
OT3H, from the Orthodox end, the deal is less good. Henry is clearly only going to make minimal concessions, and if they want to vet his priests for properly orthodox (i.e. Orthodox) theology, Henry's not going to be very happy. And if he DOESN'T let them do it, England would end up with a highly unOrthodox Orthodoxy.
OT4H, the chance to stick it to the Pope, and have an official Orthodox Church in the west, might be too much for the Patriarch of Constantinople, who might get swayed by the politics of it.

-Protestantism already has a major English constituency (who will be pleased by the conversion to Protestantism, and help support it). Orthodoxy does not, and would thus offend both the Protestants and Catholics, without winning any friends.

-Related to the above, there were already plenty of Protestants (or at least Protestant-sympathizers) in position to become priests (including various bishops, most notably the Archbishop of Canterbury himself). On the other hand, if he went Orthodox he'd have to recreate the hierarchy to a degree himself (he might get some opportunists to go along, but none of the true believers who help propel the conversion).

-Protestantism also gives him at least as much control over the church as Orthodoxy does (since he would be essentially creating it, and Lutheran theology in particular is already extremely deferential to the State).

-By this point, Protestant states are already popping up all over Europe, so a monarch becoming Protestant is a normal, respectable choice. Foreign nations might not like it, but it wouldn't be particularly novel. A monarch becoming Eastern Orthodox would be far more bizarre, while still being offensive to Catholic powers.

-England has essentially no contact with Eastern Orthodox nations, so they get no diplomatic benefits. Even traveling to Muscovy (the only Orthodox power of any note) was so dangerous as to be essentially unheard of at this point, much less establishing an alliance. On the other hand, Protestant nations are all around, and easy to communicate with, as well as providing valuable strategic allies.

So no, there is nothing in it for him whatsoever, and plenty to lose.

Dathi THorfinnsson · Dec 25, 2014

Just a Rube said:
-Protestantism already has a major English constituency (who will be pleased by the conversion to Protestantism, and help support it). Orthodoxy does not, and would thus offend both the Protestants and Catholics, without winning any friends.

-Related to the above, there were already plenty of Protestants (or at least Protestant-sympathizers) in position to become priests (including various bishops, most notably the Archbishop of Canterbury himself). On the other hand, if he went Orthodox he'd have to recreate the hierarchy to a degree himself (he might get some opportunists to go along, but none of the true believers who help propel the conversion).

-Protestantism also gives him at least as much control over the church as Orthodoxy does (since he would be essentially creating it, and Lutheran theology in particular is already extremely deferential to the State).

-By this point, Protestant states are already popping up all over Europe, so a monarch becoming Protestant is a normal, respectable choice. Foreign nations might not like it, but it wouldn't be particularly novel. A monarch becoming Eastern Orthodox would be far more bizarre, while still being offensive to Catholic powers.

-England has essentially no contact with Eastern Orthodox nations, so they get no diplomatic benefits. Even traveling to Muscovy (the only Orthodox power of any note) was so dangerous as to be essentially unheard of at this point, much less establishing an alliance. On the other hand, Protestant nations are all around, and easy to communicate with, as well as providing valuable strategic allies.

So no, there is nothing in it for him whatsoever, and plenty to lose.

Except that you keep talking about Protestantism. Whatever Anglicanism became later, it was NOT anything you could call Protestant under Henry.

Velasco · Dec 25, 2014

Ferdinand and Isabella the Catholic inherited/purchased a series of pretensions to the Eastern empire. Your best truly plausible bet is for Ferdinand to have more remarkable successes securing Naples and dealing blows to Ottoman Mediterranean dominance, taking enough of Aragon's old Greek properties as to give his Byzantine pretensions some actual substance. That accomplished, all you need is for him to enjoy some substantial squabble with Rome - perhaps touching the inheritance of Navarre, or Castille, potentially easier to achieve if Gaston Phoebus and Philip the Handsome both/either survive - leading him to put in place a certain type of Orthodoxy (or claim, as the eastern Caesar, prerogatives to head his own church lead by an Aragonese Patriarch of Constantinople) which would then enter England's orbit with Henry VIII's - Catherine of Aragon union.

LordKalvert · Dec 25, 2014

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
1) The Orthodox Church does allow re-marriage - you just can't have more than 4 total, whether you lose them by death or divorce.

2) What's in it for Henry? He wants an autonomous, autocephalous church that doesn't to follow the orders of anyone outside England. Well, that's what the various national churches of Orthodoxy are. If he wants 'respectability' of being in a greater church, without interfering orders from outside, it would be a reasonable choice. The theological differences are pretty minor, and Henry would rather be Orthodox than Lutheran, say. (Of course, he got to have his cake and eat it, too, by inventing his own 'English Catholicism'.) As for things like married clergy and services in the 'vernacular', well those were allowed by the Orthodox (although, at the time, the 'vernacular' in all Slavic nations might have been Old Church Slavonic. I don't know when the Russian Orthodox church started using Russian.)
OT3H, from the Orthodox end, the deal is less good. Henry is clearly only going to make minimal concessions, and if they want to vet his priests for properly orthodox (i.e. Orthodox) theology, Henry's not going to be very happy. And if he DOESN'T let them do it, England would end up with a highly unOrthodox Orthodoxy.
OT4H, the chance to stick it to the Pope, and have an official Orthodox Church in the west, might be too much for the Patriarch of Constantinople, who might get swayed by the politics of it.

The Russian Church still uses Slavonic

Rich Rostrom · Dec 26, 2014

tallthinkev said:
Kind of tin time.

What were the chances, if any, of Henry joining the Eastern Church after his excommunication by the Pope.

None, really.

There is no single "Eastern Church" for Henry to affiliate England with. Each of the Eastern Churches is basically autonomous; they share theological principles which are not shared by anyone in England at this time.

What you're asking is: what is the chance of Henry causing the Church in England to adopt the doctrines of the Eastern churches (on the filio que clause and the Assumption of Mary, for instance) and thus be in conformity with the Eastern Churches? And IMO the answer is: none. He'd provoke general rebellion, for nothing.

The Professor · Dec 26, 2014

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
1) The Orthodox Church does allow re-marriage - you just can't have more than 4 total, whether you lose them by death or divorce.

2) What's in it for Henry? He wants an autonomous, autocephalous church that doesn't to follow the orders of anyone outside England. Well, that's what the various national churches of Orthodoxy are. If he wants 'respectability' of being in a greater church, without interfering orders from outside, it would be a reasonable choice. The theological differences are pretty minor, and Henry would rather be Orthodox than Lutheran, say. (Of course, he got to have his cake and eat it, too, by inventing his own 'English Catholicism'.) As for things like married clergy and services in the 'vernacular', well those were allowed by the Orthodox (although, at the time, the 'vernacular' in all Slavic nations might have been Old Church Slavonic. I don't know when the Russian Orthodox church started using Russian.)
OT3H, from the Orthodox end, the deal is less good. Henry is clearly only going to make minimal concessions, and if they want to vet his priests for properly orthodox (i.e. Orthodox) theology, Henry's not going to be very happy. And if he DOESN'T let them do it, England would end up with a highly unOrthodox Orthodoxy.
OT4H, the chance to stick it to the Pope, and have an official Orthodox Church in the west, might be too much for the Patriarch of Constantinople, who might get swayed by the politics of it.

Remitonov said:
There is such a thing called Western Rite Orthodoxy (a relatively new concept compared to the timeline required here), which is basically an Eastern Orthodox church following the Latin Rite or other Western liturgies. A reverse Eastern Catholic church, basically. A simple name change from Anglican to Western Rite Orthodoxy might give Henry VIII exactly what he needs of his church while getting an Orthodox one. However, there is debate over whether a Western Orthodox church can be considered part of Eastern Orthodoxy in the first place.

Theoretically Henry had already done this with Anglicanism: an autonomous Latin Rite Church with increased vernacular masses/bibles.