What if Alsace-Lorraine was awarded to a German State after Waterloo?

stubear1012

One thing that I have wondered was what if Alsace-Lorraine was awarded to a German state after the Battle of Waterloo? The POD is that the British suffer more in the battle and the arrival of the Prussian become more critical. After the battle, the Germans ask for Alsace-Lorraine as a barrier to another French invasion. The Allies agree and award Alsace-Lorraine to a German state. The two with the best claim would be Prussia due to their part in the Battle of Waterloo and Baden due to the fact that they are on the other side of the Rhine.

Which German state would end up with Alsace-Lorraine? Would France still be as embittered over losing Alsace-Lorraine?

I did use the search feature and I did not see a thread on this. If there is one, please let me know.

Thank you

Stubear1012
 

LeCHVCK

Alsace would go to Baden and Lorraine to Bavaria. Even during the german unification there were plans to do this but Bismarck decided to make it a Reichsland something likea territory in the US.
However I don't think that France would have to cede so much land. The Lorraine in Alsace-Lorraine is very small and was only annexed because the military wanted Metz a strategically important city. If France has to give something up it would be Alsace. An independent Alsace-Lorraine doesn't work because the legitimate ruler would be the Austrian Emperor and Vienna doesn't want it. Prussia can't get Alsace because there's no land connection and no interest in more Catholic Rhineland in Berlin.
 

Vanity 6

LeCHVCK said:
Alsace would go to Baden and Lorraine to Bavaria. .
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I really like that idea. I think this would make Bavaria and Baden strong Prussian allies. Perhaps this helps accelerate unifications, as in, these two states and others are more enthused about the Erfurt Union.
 

Westphalian

Vanity 6 said:
I really like that idea. I think this would make Bavaria and Baden strong Prussian allies. Perhaps this helps accelerate unifications, as in, these two states and others are more enthused about the Erfurt Union.
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But don't forget that Bavaria and Baden were really not friendly to each other and nearly came to blows in the first decades after 1815.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

The main problem with the PoD was the big principle of the Congress of Vienna : turning back as much as possible to the pre-revolutionnary situation, and try to find an ideal geopolitical balance that would be much hard to reach with weakening France too much.

Prussia wanted a more harsh treaty, but their wishes on that matter were mostly irrelevant at Vienna : Britain, Austria and Russia wanted, before all things, to stabilize the European situation while affirming their own spheres of influence; and giving the poor importance of Prussia in Napoleonic Wars...
 

walmart

Historyman 14 said:
Why would they get something if they just lost a war?
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France did not lose the war Napoloen did . The allies were fighting to restore the house of bourbon. Any territory taken from pre 1791 borders had to be compensated or restoration of the bourbons would threaten
 

Matteo

stubear1012 said:
One thing that I have wondered was what if Alsace-Lorraine was awarded to a German state after the Battle of Waterloo? The POD is that the British suffer more in the battle and the arrival of the Prussian become more critical. After the battle, the Germans ask for Alsace-Lorraine as a barrier to another French invasion. The Allies agree and award Alsace-Lorraine to a German state. The two with the best claim would be Prussia due to their part in the Battle of Waterloo and Baden due to the fact that they are on the other side of the Rhine.

Which German state would end up with Alsace-Lorraine? Would France still be as embittered over losing Alsace-Lorraine?

I did use the search feature and I did not see a thread on this. If there is one, please let me know.

Thank you

Stubear1012
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It would have required a much longer war. The fact is that France quickly cut its loss at Waterloo by dumping Napoleon. And what you are forgetting is that Davout had set-up a big army and he had probably become a better commander than Napoleon on the field.

No body except Prussia wanted to weaken France too much because they knew France was exhausted.
 

Emperor Constantine

Yeah no. None of the German states named are likely. Bavaria and Baden were allied to Napoleon and I can't see the Allies deciding to reward them for their Napoleonic connection. Prussia could try to gain French territory, but 1815 Prussia was in no real position to effectively govern Alsace-Lorraine. As for a revived Duchy of Lorraine, that could be interesting and potentially possible. Have Franz I cede his Lorrainer rights to one of his brothers, probably Archduke Karl, and you could have a revived Lorraine as a buffer zone between France and the Rhine.

However, considering Franz's personality, I doubt it. The man was completely mediocre in everything he did and it really showed at the Congress of Vienna.
 

freivolk

Actually the Prussian had some ideas for this case. Hardenberg wrote that Bavaria should get Alsace and Prussia should get Ansbach-Bayreuth back in Exchange. I´m not sure who should get Lorraine, but I´m sure there would be a prussian garrison in Metz.
 

ranoncles

Noscoper said:
France did not lose the war Napoloen did . The allies were fighting to restore the house of bourbon. Any territory taken from pre 1791 borders had to be compensated or restoration of the bourbons would threaten
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Your sentence doesn't make any sense... Restoration of the Bourbons would threaten :confused::confused::confused:?
 

ranoncles

Matteo said:
It would have required a much longer war. The fact is that France quickly cut its loss at Waterloo by dumping Napoleon. And what you are forgetting is that Davout had set-up a big army and he had probably become a better commander than Napoleon on the field.

No body except Prussia wanted to weaken France too much because they knew France was exhausted.
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First you claim France has a big army waiting to take the field under Davout but then you claim the allies knew France was exhausted.

Leaving aside the quality of the freshly raised levies under Davout, I don't see how a country can be exhausted yet still have a large, viable army.

Could you perhaps explain in greater detail?
 

Emperor Constantine

ranoncles said:
Your sentence doesn't make any sense... Restoration of the Bourbons would threaten :confused::confused::confused:?
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Noscoper probably meant that the Bourbons would be threatened. The congress of Vienna was designed to create a lasting peace, not a short truce. Take core French territories and you create a situation in which Paris will want to reclaim them, not unlike what happened after 1871, when France lost Alsace-Lorraine. Take to little and France remains a threat to Europe. Take to much and France will definitely threaten the peace of Europe. It was a delicate balance that had to be maintained.
 

Matteo

ranoncles said:
First you claim France has a big army waiting to take the field under Davout but then you claim the allies knew France was exhausted.

Leaving aside the quality of the freshly raised levies under Davout, I don't see how a country can be exhausted yet still have a large, viable army.

Could you perhaps explain in greater detail?
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Yes. Having a big army and being exhausted is not paradoxical. The first even reinforces the second.

France had raised 500.000 men. It was fed-up with war. Its finances were in shambles, like those of most other european powers.

The allies were perfectly aware that they had the capacity to contain France. They drew the new frontiers of Europe in order to consolidate this new balance of powers.

Now, consider diplomacy.

Austria wanted Germany to remain divided. It did not want regional powers to emerge in Germany nor Prussia to become stronger.
And the Habsburgs-Lorraine had forfeited their dynastic rights on the duchy of Lorraine some eighty years earlier at the end of the war of polish succession. They had traded it against italian duchies.

Britain and Austria needed France's support to contain Russia's expansionism westward.

Britain, Russia and Austria all had long agreed that they wanted to bring France back to its 1792 frontiers. That was the keystone of their alliance. Without it, the alliance would not have held.
And Prussia was only a junior partner compared with these 3 major powers. Only Prussia wanted to weaken France more than Britain, Russia and Austria did and it had absolutely no means to have her wish prevail.

All were forces to compromise because all had conflicting ambitions.
 

ranoncles

Matteo said:
Yes. Having a big army and being exhausted is not paradoxical. The first even reinforces the second.

France had raised 500.000 men. It was fed-up with war. Its finances were in shambles, like those of most other european powers.

The allies were perfectly aware that they had the capacity to contain France. They drew the new frontiers of Europe in order to consolidate this new balance of powers.

Now, consider diplomacy.

Austria wanted Germany to remain divided. It did not want regional powers to emerge in Germany nor Prussia to become stronger.
And the Habsburgs-Lorraine had forfeited their dynastic rights on the duchy of Lorraine some eighty years earlier at the end of the war of polish succession. They had traded it against italian duchies.

Britain and Austria needed France's support to contain Russia's expansionism westward.

Britain, Russia and Austria all had long agreed that they wanted to bring France back to its 1792 frontiers. That was the keystone of their alliance. Without it, the alliance would not have held.
And Prussia was only a junior partner compared with these 3 major powers. Only Prussia wanted to weaken France more than Britain, Russia and Austria did and it had absolutely no means to have her wish prevail.

All were forces to compromise because all had conflicting ambitions.
Click to expand...


Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.
 

walmart

ranoncles said:
Your sentence doesn't make any sense... Restoration of the Bourbons would threaten :confused::confused::confused:?
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The house of bourbon would look like weak rulers who had sold france to foreign powers and wouldn't care what happened to france as long as they ruled .
 
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