Alternate Republic of China Navy- ideas and discussion

abc123

Banned
OK, this is thread about alternate RoC Navy. It is settled in alternate world where with big US support for Nationalist Government in China during the Civil war, they don't loose the war, but don't win it either. After 1948, the front lines are stabilised ( like in OTL Korean Peninsula ) so that Beijing and Manchuria are under PRC/Communist rule while the rest of China is under Kuomintang rule.

Link for map:

http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=dz9i0zogf4uhw6y2upyv.png

As I said, US sent rather large aid to the RoC, but that was mostly army and air force equipment, but let's say that the US sent them dozen of old destroyers and frigates after the WW2 ( they had ****load of them ).

So, with all of that in your mind, what you think about the development of this alternate RoC Navy?
 

abc123

Banned
So let's say that the US sent them 6 Rudderow-class destroyer escorts, 6 Gleaves-class destroyers in 1946/47 and 12 Tacoma-class frigates.
For good measure, let's add there another 6 Salmon-class submarines and say, 6 LSM-1-class landing ship medium.

These are all old ships that were decomissioned from the USN in 1945-47.

So, that's your starting point. That's the fleet you have in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSM-1-class_landing_ship_medium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudderow-class_destroyer_escort

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma-class_frigate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleaves-class_destroyer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon-class_submarine
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
My first question is can the Chinese competently crew these ships, or are there US advisors basically acting as officers of the RoC?

My next question is, if they are going to send these ships why not send some escort carriers? They have no life or purpose now, and having the ability to aerially outflank the Communists could be vital.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

abc123

Banned
My first question is can the Chinese competently crew these ships, or are there US advisors basically acting as officers of the RoC?

My next question is, if they are going to send these ships why not send some escort carriers? They have no life or purpose now, and having the ability to aerially outflank the Communists could be vital.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf


Well, I don't see why Chinese could not man these few ships, if not right away, than in year or two. It's not that they lack the manpower... It only needs about 6000 people to man them... Also, US Navy sent there their advisors to help with training of Chinese officers.

But I do think that any sort of carrier is too much for China in 1946-48 period...

RoC Naval Academy was (re)founded in Shangai in 1946, so it's entirely plausible that US Navy will send them several their advisors to act as instructors...
 
Last edited:

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Well, I don't see why Chinese could not man these few ships, if not right away, than in year or two. It's not that they lack the manpower... It only needs about 6000 people to man them... Also, US Navy sent there their advisors to help with training of Chinese officers.

Oh, I'm not saying they can't find the crews, I just wondered about the level of competency in using them. Were there enough trained naval engineers, officers etc who could step up from whatever the RoC had in naval forces and take charge in a destroyer?

Or are we thinking that US naval officers are basically seconded in a "training" or "advisory" role to the RoC navy?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

abc123

Banned
Oh, I'm not saying they can't find the crews, I just wondered about the level of competency in using them. Were there enough trained naval engineers, officers etc who could step up from whatever the RoC had in naval forces and take charge in a destroyer?

Or are we thinking that US naval officers are basically seconded in a "training" or "advisory" role to the RoC navy?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Yes, I know what you meant, of course that their level of competency will be pretty low for a few years, but, as I said, that's the beginning and every start is hard.

Yes, USN will be seconded to RoC Naval Academy, and maybe even to ships themselves for a few years...

Also, I presume that several Chinese cadets could be sent to US Naval Academy to be educated there- is that realistic ( I mean because of racism there )?
 
Last edited:

abc123

Banned
1948

This year brought the end of Chinese Civil War, or better to say, a armistice. Armistice was signed in Ulan Bator, in Mongolia, with United States and USSR as mediators. Both mediators had strong leverage, United Stated nuclear bomb and Soviets world's largest army, Soviets threatned to directly help Chinese Communists if RoC forces continue with their push toward Beijing. United States on the other hand sent a squadron of B-29 Superfortress nuclear bombers to Okinawa. That forced both sides to talks and after some diplomatic wrangling the armistice was signed. Both sides basicly kept what they had at the moment, agreed to exchange prisoners of war and to respect demilitarized zone between them observed by foreign observers from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Ireland and Switzerland.

800px-Korea_DMZ_sentry.jpg


Chinese Demilitarized Zone near Beijing
 

abc123

Banned
1948- RoC Navy

Armistice did not brought a real peace along the border of two China's. PRC/Manchurian spies and sabouters frequently used Yellow Sea to infiltrate into RoC. That was the reason why China decided to form Coastal Patrol Division. At first they were equipped with old junks and such ships, but China asked US to send them old WW2 patrol boats. US happily obliged and sent them 12 old Admirable-class minesweepers to be used as patrol boats.

Also, RoC and United States agreed that in the future five Chinese cadets could be sent to US Naval Academy in Annapolis and 20 more will be sent each 4 months to Officers Candidates School in Pensacola.

US naval advisors in China were grouped in US Naval Advisory Group, that consisted of about 250 officers in operational units and about 50 officers and midshipmens in RoC Naval Academy ( in meanwhile relocated from Shangai to Ningbo ).

110225701.jpg


Admirable class minesweeper
 
Last edited:

abc123

Banned
1949

This year shipyard in Jiangan ( Shangai ) was taken over and nationalised into RoC Naval Shipyard. It's main task was mainteinance of naval ships.
Also, RoC Navy decided to form Naval Aviation Service. United States agreed to send them instructors and 50 old PBY Catalina flying boats.
First naval air station was formed same year, near Ningbo- to traon naval aviators. Next year operational air stations were formed in Weihai, Taipei ( Taiwan ) and Sanya ( Hainan ).

300px-PBY_Catalina_landing.jpg


Consolidated PBY Catalina, first aircraft of RoC Navy Aviation Service
 

abc123

Banned
1950

This year brought first generation of post-war graduates from RoC Naval Academy commissioned into the Navy as first liutenants. Also first graduates from US Officer Candidates School were brought back into service. General staff of RoC Navy predicted that in about 2-3 years they will be able to have their ships operated without US naval advisors.
On the other hand, American naval advisors were brought and RoC Navy Officer Candidates School was formed in Qingdao.
 

abc123

Banned
So, to continue with this TL, I really need your help about Korean War...

Would Stalin and Mao and Kim Il Sung decide to attack South Korea as OTL, when they have strong RoC around? My own opinion, no.
 
Last edited:
So, to continue with this TL, I really need your help about Korean War...

Would Stalin and Mao and Kim Il Sung decide to attack South Korea as OTL, when they have strong RoC around? My own opinion, no.

Agreed,
I think they would (should) be worried that a Korean war will mean a general war in Asia, then the world, SIOP style ..... (Ok its not 61 yet)
 

abc123

Banned
Agreed,
I think they would (should) be worried that a Korean war will mean a general war in Asia, then the world, SIOP style ..... (Ok its not 61 yet)

Also, with huge RoC Army there, sitting on border with PRC ( aka Manchuria ) Chinese Communists would not be so free to send a million of soldiers in Korea... And without that, would Stalin and Kim dare to act?
 
It depends on Stalin and what his preconditions would be for North Korea's planned invasion maybe. It is very possible imo that it would still occur.
 
The concern I have with this TL is that it takes years to train a naval officer. From my personal experience it would be reasonable to expect that it would take between 12 - 24 months before a junior officer could stand his own watches in company with other vessels. This is also ignoring the requirements ashore to sustain a navy, which is substantial.

A POD that you could use would be for the ROC to utilise coastal submarines during WW 2, I briefly looked into this for a TL I was drafting. This provides them the experience and expertise to possibly be in a position to operate a fleet boat with assistance post war.

When the US enters the war, have a couple of ROC crew several destroyers / de's and post war you could use them as a the core of the ROCN.
 

abc123

Banned
The concern I have with this TL is that it takes years to train a naval officer. From my personal experience it would be reasonable to expect that it would take between 12 - 24 months before a junior officer could stand his own watches in company with other vessels. This is also ignoring the requirements ashore to sustain a navy, which is substantial.

.

No question about that, but Chinese navy isn't very proficient now, and, admittedly- will not be for some time yet. But, out of political considerations, they decided to push for independent Navy, even with some things lacking and thinking that they will allready sort them out...
So, this six submarines, are more of training submarines than real- operational ships. And you can see that, with exception of this 12 minesweepers, China didn't get any new ship from 1947 to 1950- just because, they simply have no trained crews for them. Or, indeed, a compelling need for a strong navy either.
 
Last edited:
Top