Isle after Isle: Greek Discovery of America

Hello, I thought of a subject for a new TL/Story line but I'm going to write it a bit differently than from my Vinland TL which was trying to be a Hard Realistic History Book point of view, But this story Is going to be more like a work of Fiction where there are characters and such.

Now that may not be as "realistic" as the writing style of the Vinland TL and I'm not sure how well this will pan out. So what I'm trying to say this is an attempt to make something but also an experiment to see if I can write differently, and some editing will occur.

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"It's been nothing but Waves the size of Hills! If it weren't for that Damn Prostitute...".

"Quit crying Olorus. You acted all so proud about being a seaman in Massalia but the second you come out here in the Ocean out by Britannia where Possiden likes to screw his women and you act like it's the worst thing ever".

The man who complained earlier gives a look that could be considered spiteful or humorous: "If it weren't for the money and getting away from all the posh to the south I would have never come with you crazy men, I still don't get how you can take these Northern waters Diogenes".

The man called Diogenes stares back at him and laughs, "Navigating these enormous waves and stormy Oceans is like Pleasuring your Mother, it takes strong arms and experience".

"If you were anyone else I would have knocked you overboard for saying that, anyways are you still sure about the Thule people Cimon said about going around the Northern top of the globe or whatever? I'd hate to be stranded in an ocean like this or something".

As Diogenes was about to reply a man seemingly of importance, replied first: "Yes, I had been on crew with Pytheas. We had met these Thule and found many Grassy Isles to the North of which kept appearing with no number to the west."

"How do you even know the Earth is round old man? Even is it isn't we haven't been making good time."

The Captain known as Cimon answered, "I told you, in Athens the 'oh so smarter than the commoner' people had tested it by having a long bronze pole with fire on it at night go out far away from shore and it disappeared."

Olorus mumbled in agony of the bile ready to leave his stomach, "That's because it was so small because it was far away obviously, how can the smart people be so blind".

Diogenes said with a sigh; "Well if it's round or not we'll never know, but I do know on the Island's up North there are these enormous sea fish with large teeth than paddle onto land to bask in the sun, probably could make some money selling probably make some money by sellin' the teeth of their's."

Cimon then replied with a smirk, "They have no Gills and breathe air so they aren't really fish more like dolphins with fat faces, you helped me gut on no?"

"Anything that swims n water is a fish in my opinion, now can we-" Olorus was interrupted.

"Boss, there's some land up that a way!" !ne of the crewmen yelled.

"There it is Boys! The great Island of Thule, not too many trees but there are Seals and Big toothed Animals aplenty!".

"Finally, might not have a tavern on it but land would be great" Olorus said.

"My word Olorus your like a Child, keep this up and we'll leave you on the Island" Said a crewman obviously displeased with Olorus' whining.

When the Ship had landed on the Island the men had spread out with Bows and Harpoons looking for game.

At the end of the day the men of the crew had three campfires going, feasting on the Large animal who had enormous fangs.

"I tell you what this meat ain't half bad unlike last time were it tasted like rotting fish, anyways Cimon tell us again about the Land to even further west of here?" The middle aged Diogenes blurted out in between eating the Walrus meat.

"It was about ten years ago, when Pytheas had to do some political rubbish in Masallia and I was left to try and see about the Thule people", Everyone stared in interest which had made Cimon chuckle.

"I was here on this very Island where I tried to go south, but it wasn't the fate Posiden had in mind and I was blown off to a land of Ice", The people listening.

"How does this have to do with finding the Eastern Coast of Asia." one of the men said.

"Oy shut up you, I'm getting to that. Anyways, the land had many Inlets and the Caribou didn't even care if walked up to them. I had judged it worth further exploration but when I tried to move along the coast just a wee bit Posiden had whipped me in a storm and sent the ship further south to a Land that had trees."

"And just because you saw stinkin' trees you thought it was Asia?" Olorus chimed.

"I had thought nothing of it but when I returned to Massalia I heard from a Scythian Slave of just how far the size of Asia is, Large enough to span most of the Globe to be exact."

Diogenes asked with a confused look on his face, "What if it turns out not to be Asia and just an Island with some trees on it?"

"Even if it's not it probably helps us get most of the way there so we can hop on other Isles and eventually find it sometime or another. And the Natives there are friendly and don't know what Iron is and spend time clinking around with Rocks, I suppose the weather is warm enough to grow wheat and raise sheep".

"You could do that anywhere you old coot" Olorus blared.

"Yes but you can't take a piss on a tree for Olympus' sake without them getting angry over some Barbaric stupidity, Trust me the Caledonians did just that."

The Men went to sleep in tents on the grassy Island of Thule that would in another world and time be known as Iceland while they exausted the only beer and wine they had left in the voyage. The Next day would have them Row to the west in search of a Land that they think may be Asia, what will happen to them is unknown except that it will lay the foundations for the discovery that would herald the History Books.
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Wait, what's the POD?

Captain Orange said:

Wait, what's the POD?

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Hum... apparently Pytheas expedition took the Greeks (of Massalia itself, I suppose) blown off course (I suppose from northern Britain) to "Thule", which most likely is Iceland (which is indeed one of the northern islands that the ancients might have known as Thule, the others being the Shetlands or the Faroe).

I'm surprised that the Greek ships did so well in the North Atlantic. Have they adapted some of the techniques of the Atlantic Gauls?

Before proceeding with

Before proceeding with the development , it would be nice explanation that was what caused Greek colonizing impulse does not stop and its causes can be reversed in the TL

I guess you're aware that there was a reason in OTL, that Greek trade and colonization could not extend far from Massalia and continue traveling the Atlantic.

Otherwise it is a good start and a interesting idea.

Xenophonte said:

Before proceeding with the development , it would be nice explanation that was what caused Greek colonizing impulse does not stop and its causes can be reversed in the TL

I guess you're aware that there was a reason in OTL, that Greek trade and colonization could not extend far from Massalia and continue traveling the Atlantic.

Otherwise it is a good start and a interesting idea.

Click to expand...

I imagine ITTL it would be twofold. One, there is no conquest of the Persian Empire, which leads to the once more overpopulated Greeks to look to the western mediterranean once more. Perhaps directly as a result of this, Carthage and the Phoenician cities in southern Spain are captured, opening up the Pillars of Hercules to Greek ships. IIRC, Carthage had some form of sea trade with Britain, so maybe the Greeks expand on this foundation?

The problem has deeper causes...

SlyDessertFox said:

I imagine ITTL it would be twofold. One, there is no conquest of the Persian Empire, which leads to the once more overpopulated Greeks to look to the western mediterranean once more. Perhaps directly as a result of this, Carthage and the Phoenician cities in southern Spain are captured, opening up the Pillars of Hercules to Greek ships. IIRC, Carthage had some form of sea trade with Britain, so maybe the Greeks expand on this foundation?

Click to expand...

The problem has deeper causes ... The Greeks despite their technical and military superiority in general, as history shows Megale Hellás hardly make common cause and / or would bring together their resources against their enemies / commercial rivals and until that happens, it is not likely to be achieved Punica break the hegemony.

It was not so easy to defeat Carthage, remember that Rome, after expelling of Sicily and defeat at sea, had landed an army in Africa to finally defeat Carthage; what happened because he could not use his strategy of allying with a continental power against rivals / enemies turn.

An example of this is its first alliance with the Etruscans against the Greeks of Phocaea (Phokaia) that led to the outcome of the battle and its aftermath Alalia and later to Rome.

On the other Cartago hand, without a true citizen and stranded in Sicily by the Greek army, he was relatively indecisive regarding its expansionist policy: while the aristocratic party was inclined to expand the power of the city by land, subduing neighboring territories The commercial party was more interested in exploiting new trade routes.
While this symmetry is not sufficient to contain the hostilities, thanks to several treaties, stipulated and accepted by both powers, relations between Rome and Carthage followed a path of mutual friendship and tolerance for centuries.

Polybius said:

The first treaties were made between Romans and Carthaginians were on time Lucius Junius Brutus and M. Horatius, the first two consuls appointed following the fall of the King, who was consecrated the Temple of Jupiter. These events occurred twenty-eight years before passage of Xerxes to Greece. We transcribe their content here, giving the most accurate interpretation of which we are capable..../Histories, III, 22

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Presumably it,if emerges a renewed Greek presence in the western Mediterranean, this 'threat' that both powers would do forget their differences in the face off the renewed 'threat' Greek.

SlyDessertFox said:

I imagine ITTL it would be twofold. One, there is no conquest of the Persian Empire, which leads to the once more overpopulated Greeks to look to the western mediterranean once more. Perhaps directly as a result of this, Carthage and the Phoenician cities in southern Spain are captured, opening up the Pillars of Hercules to Greek ships. IIRC, Carthage had some form of sea trade with Britain, so maybe the Greeks expand on this foundation?

Click to expand...

What about Alexander, instead conquering Persia, turned westbound and defeated the Empire of Carthage?

After that, he founds new Greek colonies on the shores of the Atlantic and at some point, Greek merchants discover Iceland/the Azores?

Xenophonte said:

The problem has deeper causes ... The Greeks despite their technical and military superiority in general, as history shows Megale Hellás hardly make common cause and / or would bring together their resources against their enemies / commercial rivals and until that happens, it is not likely to be achieved Punica break the hegemony.

It was not so easy to defeat Carthage, remember that Rome, after expelling of Sicily and defeat at sea, had landed an army in Africa to finally defeat Carthage; what happened because he could not use his strategy of allying with a continental power against rivals / enemies turn.

An example of this is its first alliance with the Etruscans against the Greeks of Phocaea (Phokaia) that led to the outcome of the battle and its aftermath Alalia and later to Rome.

On the other Cartago hand, without a true citizen and stranded in Sicily by the Greek army, he was relatively indecisive regarding its expansionist policy: while the aristocratic party was inclined to expand the power of the city by land, subduing neighboring territories The commercial party was more interested in exploiting new trade routes.
While this symmetry is not sufficient to contain the hostilities, thanks to several treaties, stipulated and accepted by both powers, relations between Rome and Carthage followed a path of mutual friendship and tolerance for centuries.



Presumably it,if emerges a renewed Greek presence in the western Mediterranean, this 'threat' that both powers would do forget their differences in the face off the renewed 'threat' Greek.

Click to expand...

This is all true. Yet a conquest of Carthage is not impossible. Someone with the ambitions and talent of Pyrrhus and preferably with more diplomatic tact
could conceivably subdue Carthage. Dionysius after all did manage to sack Motya, so Lilybaeum is not impenetrable. From there, Carthage has a serious problem if any enemy lands there-the Libyans can be turned against them and a large professional army with adequate supply should be able to take the city in due time.

SlyDessertFox said:

This is all true. Yet a conquest of Carthage is not impossible. Someone with the ambitions and talent of Pyrrhus and preferably with more diplomatic tact

Click to expand...

Alexander III?

SlyDessertFox said:

could conceivably subdue Carthage. Dionysius after all did manage to sack Motya, so Lilybaeum is not impenetrable. From there, Carthage has a serious problem if any enemy lands there-the Libyans can be turned against them and a large professional army with adequate supply should be able to take the city in due time.

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Wouldn't it be enough to take all of Sicily, maybe Corsica and Sardinia too, to open westen Mediterranean for Greek trade and colonization? Don't think you have to actually land in Africa and conquer Carthage (with or without razing it) to achieve Greek dominance in the Med.

SlyDessertFox said:

I imagine ITTL it would be twofold. One, there is no conquest of the Persian Empire, which leads to the once more overpopulated Greeks to look to the western mediterranean once more. Perhaps directly as a result of this, Carthage and the Phoenician cities in southern Spain are captured, opening up the Pillars of Hercules to Greek ships. IIRC, Carthage had some form of sea trade with Britain, so maybe the Greeks expand on this foundation?

Click to expand...

Well given people asking for a POD I guess I'm going to have to answer even though I wanted it to be somewhat conspicuous.

So when Pytheas went back to Massalia he left a man in charge to continue exploring where her got knocked off course to otl Greenland and from there saw a little bit of the North American coastline.

And people are assuming large colonization is going to happen, The mission is to see if it's Asia and when proven it's not... Well the rest would spoil it

Sorry about not making an update sooner, sorry for the shortness but with real life things and my other Vinland TL being more in demand not too much chance to do this one. So let me know what you think and how you think things will play out. Working on the next part already so forgive the Shortness of this one.

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The Men had continued on their journey and through Harsh weather; Eventually after stopping on many ice barren Islands they found the coastline of what was believed to be Asia. They then traveled further south for weeks on end to find nothing.

"I don't think this is Asia, what with the people not even knowing what farming is"

"Olorus, we may just be on an Island that we can jump around to Asia. Besides what do you care, your only in here to get away from Massalia and to make some money."

"Heh, I agree Diogenes. The wimpy little boy from the city has turned into a Philosopher during the journey."

"Come now Cimon, your the most interested in Philosophy than anyone here."

"Maybe so, whatever we should get on the coast the wind keeps pushing us east and if we keep it up we're going to be stuck in the middle of the Ocean."

The men set up camp on the coastline, but were confronted by the Stone people. The crew attempted trade but it had turned violent, the result was a loss for the Stone People and the crew lost three men.

After a sigh of defeat Cimon said aloud; "I've had enough of this damn Journey; once spring comes were leaving for Massalia."

After collecting animal life that were unknown to the Massalians and documenting many things and their progress they had made the long journey back to Europa. When they had reached the Northern coast of Gaul and made the long and hard process of Portaging the ship. At Massalia they submitted their findings to many of the primitive Scientists and Philosophers, soon all over the Mediterranean word had reached that a ship from Massalia may have reached Asia. The Carthaginians in Particular had shown interest in this and sent explorers to Thule but had no luck in Reaching the land with Trees and many had begun to imagine it as a Myth or Lie.

It would be nearly three Hundred Years before Europeans would tread their Feet on the New continent once more.

Can't wait to see where this goes. As always, I'm down to help with maps.

So where in the new world (if it is the new world) did this Greek crew land?
And who are these stone people?

tonsofun said:

So where in the new world (if it is the new world) did this Greek crew land?
And who are these stone people?

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They are somewhere on the eastern coast of Canada and went a couple hundred miles south. And the stone people are the natives as a whole as reference to their technology

Yeah due to the Vinland Tl being the "Primary TL" because there are more demands from people for that tl I have been slacking off on this one. And with barely enough free time to do the Vinland TL I try and do whatever I can with this one now and again. And if I haven't said it before this TL isn't just for entertainment but as a way to test out new writing styles that I'm not accustomed to so if it goes to really poor quality that's why.

Also the updates for this is going to be smaller so don't make this TL grow on you too much.

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The year was 17 AD, The Roman Empire had conquered nearly all the Medditerranean, and the General Germanicus this year had been sent to fight the Parthians. In Germania Arminus was rampaging looking to conquer all the tribes and form a Kingdom.

In Thule however different peoples from Caledonia and the and men North of Germania had settled down with sheep and traded with Roman Merchants for Walrus Ivory. Some had tried to settle on the Isles just west of Thule called Magna Thule in Latin that were slightly less habitable but were rich in Seals ,Walrus, and even Musk Oxen. However this year some Thule people looking to hunt in Magna Thule had been knocked by Storms further southward.

Of course to the Educated in the Mediterranean world they knew some of the land by the Voyage of Cimon of Massalia who once sailed under Pytheas of Massalia. The story would be considered myth were it not for the plant and animal samples brought back that were definitely different from European species, however some speculate that they could be from the Mare Seubicum also known as the Baltic. Roman merchants and sailors had made it to Thule before but typical ships of the Romans were of poor quality in the northern oceans, even so one expedition managed to find Magna Thule.

In the year 17 AD the Thulian migrants who found their way into the land south of Magna Thule had probably been amazed at the sight of trees. Evidence shows that they had gotten into conflict with the local natives, they still maintained contact with Thule it seems. Years later in the year 63 AD metal working came to the Thulian people, eventually Roman merchants found their way to the land known to them as Nemusannia. Researchers at the time went there and confirmed the plants and animal samples to be the same to what Simon of Massalia discovered.

The Romans did not care much about the discoveries much, land was plenty in Europe and interest in it died out. However, from Scythian traders a very soft cloth was high in Roman demand; Silk. The Romans sent Merchants far to the east to obtain it while selling their own unique glassware, the main route of trade was over land but a new route was to go along the Indian ocean. This was dangerous as Pirates and Parthanians would try and block the way, a new route was needed.

A Roman Merchant who had found himself in the lands south of Magna Thule known roughly as 'Nemusannia', after going south selling his wares for new items which he would usually sell elsewhere; however one day around the year 79 AD the man had found a new cloth. A unique variation of cotton which he sold in bulk to the Latin population in Britain just after the victory over the rebel Boudica, while Silk was much more desired the western cotton was still a valued commodity. Cotton seeds were taken to North Africa and grown there where it became the preferred cloth from wool and linen. Many philosophers believed that Silk was made from a type of cotton and began theorizing if they were to crossbreed the near eastern cottons with the new species then they could be able to recreate silk.

In the general continent of Nemusannia the Thule migrants began to resemble Germanian or pre-conquered Gaulish tribes. In their sphere of influence they introduced Barley, Rye, and some livestock. Some of these European animals and crops found their way into the hands of the natives and many natives had developed some small form of metal working. The Thule Migrants were becoming a new people, the tribes of the various Thulonni as they were called by the Romans.

Good start. I'm glad that it's back.

Watched.

I like the trade development.

Once there is enough contact, which it seems that there is , the old world sicknesses will be introduced. I would hazard a guess that less of them coming at once the native population will both weather the illness better and recover quicker. Several of the worst plages have not yet reached Europe.

It's definitely an unique timeline. And there were plagues in Antiquity, but not at the time of the discovery. Although the Antonine Plague is a century away. Question is, how does this affect the Maya civilization?