Sealion Naval Forces

I have been working through a list of the shipping that would be available in the first few hours of an attempted German invasion of Britain assuming a date after 20th September 1940. Please note this is NOT a "the Germans had this so they could defeat the RN" discussion I'm just looking for opinions on the relative merits of each type of vessel listed (see attached PDF). The information had been taken from several sources including uboat.net, naval-history.net, german-navy.de and Jane's Fighting Ships of World War Two.

The German ships shown are the ones listed as being earmarked for Sealion although there were many others available in the various ports. The British ships listed are those that could have been available within a few hours of the invasion fleet setting sail with the exception of the Tribal Class Destroyers as they were stationed in Rosyth and would presumably not have been available for the first engagements. I have included these for comparison purposes only.

Please note that there is space on the document to enter further information on each ship/class of ship and others can be added. Also note I have note included each class of RN Destroyer as there are just too many variations so I have chosen the best, the most typical and the worst as three examples.

Please don't turn this into an argument if you can help it, this thrad is here purely to try to gain knowledge ... Thanks.

P.S. If you think there is something wrong, technical details etc. please shout out, the list can only be as good as the information provided.
 

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TFSmith121

Banned
You have used "draft" when you mean "displacement," first off

I have been working through a list of the shipping that would be available in the first few hours of an attempted German invasion of Britain assuming a date after 20th September 1940. Please note this is NOT a "the Germans had this so they could defeat the RN" discussion I'm just looking for opinions on the relative merits of each type of vessel listed (see attached PDF). The information had been taken from several sources including uboat.net, naval-history.net, german-navy.de and Jane's Fighting Ships of World War Two.

The German ships shown are the ones listed as being earmarked for Sealion although there were many others available in the various ports. The British ships listed are those that could have been available within a few hours of the invasion fleet setting sail with the exception of the Tribal Class Destroyers as they were stationed in Rosyth and would presumably not have been available for the first engagements. I have included these for comparison purposes only.

Please note that there is space on the document to enter further information on each ship/class of ship and others can be added. Also note I have note included each class of RN Destroyer as there are just too many variations so I have chosen the best, the most typical and the worst as three examples.

Please don't turn this into an argument if you can help it, this thrad is here purely to try to gain knowledge ... Thanks.

P.S. If you think there is something wrong, technical details etc. please shout out, the list can only be as good as the information provided.

You have used "draft" when you mean "displacement," first off; and which measure of displacement? Design, standard, or full load?

Best,
 
You have used "draft" when you mean "displacement," first off; and which measure of displacement? Design, standard, or full load?

Best,
Well thats a bit stupid of me!! Even more stupid that I didn't spot it ... that'll be fixed for next time.

Where ever possible I've tried to go for full load as it was actually easier to find than design or standard although I know that one or two of those on the list probably don't show full load.
 
Would not the Germans thrown everything they had into it ?

And I would expect that some of the larger RN ships might have moved south as the warnings got louder and thus been in position to join in.

JSB
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Actually, "everything they had" in the autumn of 1940 amounted

Would not the Germans thrown everything they had into it ?

And I would expect that some of the larger RN ships might have moved south as the warnings got louder and thus been in position to join in.

JSB

Actually, "everything they had" operational in the autumn of 1940 amounted to about a half-dozen destroyers, maybe a dozen or so built for the purpose escorts and Treaty-type "torpedo boats" (not MTBs/PTs/S-boats), and maybe a hundred small craft worth considering.

That's about it. During the Norwegian campaign, the Allies (British, French, and Norwegians) had savaged the German surface fleet, without any air cover worth the name; the Germans had lost three of the 12 cruisers they had started the war with (Graf Spee was already gone), as well as 10 of the 22 fleet destroyers they started the war with; and the rest - including the only two capital ships they had operational - had all suffered significant damage.

What it comes down to is the Germans were contemplating mounting a sigbnificantly larger amphibious assault than Norway, but with much weaker naval forces than they had for Norway.

Best,
 
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Actually, "everything they had" operational in the autumn of 1940 amounted to about a half-dozen destroyers, maybe a dozen or so built for the purpose escorts and Treaty-type "torpedo boats" (not MTBs/PTs/S-boats), and maybe a hundred small craft worth considering.

That's about it. During the Norwegian campaign, the Allies (British, French, and Norwegians) had savaged the German surface fleet, without any air cover worth the name; the Germans had lost three of the 12 cruisers they had started the war with (Graf Spee was already gone), as well as 10 of the 22 fleet destroyers they started the war with; and the rest - including the only two capital ships they had operational - had all suffered significant damage.

What it comes down to is the Germans were contemplating mounting a sigbnificantly larger amphibious assault than Norway, but less much weaker naval forces than they had for Norway.

Best,

what about the pocket battleships?
 
Only the Sheer was available. Along with the Hipper, it was to be used in a diversionary raid on the Atlantic convoys.

German ship listing.jpg


A Sperrbrecher was a heavily armed 5 - 10,000 ton merchant ship given additional flotation and improvised armour, designed to lead the fleet and blow up mines by hitting them. It's AA armament was well respected by allied airmen.

The invasion transport forces assembled consisted of:
159 transports
1859 barges (after losses due to air attack)
410 tugs
11 Herbert ferries
12 Seibel ferries
1600 motor boats (for command and control during the crossing and manoeuvring of barges to shore and between ship and shore).
68 command boats
5 heavy (6" guns), 27 light Artillery ships (the former functioned well against Russian destroyers in the Baltic).

Invasion escorts
· 7 Destroyers
· 13 Torpedo Boats (small destroyers),
· 13 S-Boats,
· 19 M-1935 Mine Sweepers
· 51 U-Boats (even training boats will be deployed)
· 93 Vorposten Boats (aux.)
· 40 Raum Boats (aux. Mine sweepers)

On page 55 of Schenk it says there were 1,600 "motor boats" divided into three types: (a) motor fishing vessels for the transportation of First Wave infantry (b) boats of various sorts for pushing unpowered barges ashore and (c) fast police or customs craft as group leaders assigned to a naval officer commanding a tow group.

German ship listing.jpg
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
I included them in the "12 cruisers" count, since that

what about the pocket battleships?

I included them in the "12 cruisers" count, since that is really what the amounted to, in terms of tonnage.

And, as far as it goes, this is (I think) the German capital ship and cruiser situation in September, 1940:

Scharnhorst - badly damaged off Norway; under repair/trials until December;
Gneisenau - same as Scharnhorst, essentially;
Scheer - operational;
Lutzow - under repair until March;
Hipper - operational, but historically went into the yard for a refit after Norway;
Prinz Eugen - operational; newly commissioned;
Nurnberg - operational;
Leipzig - under repair;
Koln - in yard for refit;
Emden - operational (training duties in Baltic);

So, maybe, six cruisers? At best?

Their odds against the Home Fleet and Channel/North Sea forces of the RN would not be anything I'd bet on...the Channel Dash was a "success" (although Gneisenau was a CTL by the end of it) because it was a withdrawal...

Best,
 

Saphroneth

Banned
IIRC they were going to foray the heavies out to try and draw off the RN heavies.

Because the forlorn hope that a half dozen motley cruisers, and POSSIBLY one battleship, can draw off and distract and generally mess with the entirety of the RN heavies was, while not a good plan, the only game in town.
Which is why they chose to, continuing the metaphor, complain about the hotels until Hitler cancelled the trip.
 
A Sperrbrecher was a heavily armed 5 - 10,000 ton merchant ship given additional flotation and improvised armour, designed to lead the fleet and blow up mines by hitting them. It's AA armament was well respected by allied airmen.

I will include one of these on the list for comparison ...
 
Few comments:
  • Numbers! I can't see how many of each type there are - fifty RN destroyers is a very different proposition from two, but you can't tell from that list (that or I'm just blind :p).
  • It would be really good to have some idea of how far away all the vessels are, say from a nominal point on the British coast like Hastings. Distance is OK, time at a plausible speed is better (assuming the Germans get picked up halfway across). Say if you banded into "first 3 hours", "first 12 hours", "first 24 hours" and "first 48 hours".
  • For some reason I thought that there were RN cruisers at Southampton and the Nore/Harwich - am I wrong, or are you counting them as too far away?
 
Would you not just patch up any heavy's (S&G) and send them even if they are not fixed (limited speed etc.) ?

At the end of the day its better to lose them and get the army ashore than lose the army.

JSB
 
Few comments:
  • Numbers! I can't see how many of each type there are - fifty RN destroyers is a very different proposition from two, but you can't tell from that list (that or I'm just blind :p).
  • It would be really good to have some idea of how far away all the vessels are, say from a nominal point on the British coast like Hastings. Distance is OK, time at a plausible speed is better (assuming the Germans get picked up halfway across). Say if you banded into "first 3 hours", "first 12 hours", "first 24 hours" and "first 48 hours".
  • For some reason I thought that there were RN cruisers at Southampton and the Nore/Harwich - am I wrong, or are you counting them as too far away?
Numbers would be very, very useful an will be included as will distance/time etc. that's what I'm working on now. The numbers will be very telling I believe mainly because, as you say, the Germans may have had one or two of each type available but the RN had many, many more.

As far as I'm aware there were no Cruisers at Southampton, well not on a permanent basis at least, the Nore Cruisers were stationed at Immingham (Humber) but made regular visits to Sheerness I believe which is why the list includes a C Class Cruiser
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Few comments:
  • Numbers! I can't see how many of each type there are - fifty RN destroyers is a very different proposition from two, but you can't tell from that list (that or I'm just blind :p).
  • It would be really good to have some idea of how far away all the vessels are, say from a nominal point on the British coast like Hastings. Distance is OK, time at a plausible speed is better (assuming the Germans get picked up halfway across). Say if you banded into "first 3 hours", "first 12 hours", "first 24 hours" and "first 48 hours".
  • For some reason I thought that there were RN cruisers at Southampton and the Nore/Harwich - am I wrong, or are you counting them as too far away?

Of course, it should be stressed that "Germans get picked up halfway across" is almost literally a worst case scenario for the Brits - what with how the disbursement points are visible from the cliffs of Dover, and all...
But worst case is fine. If it turns out the Brits had a fighting chance under worst case assumptions, then anything realistic should end up with their winning in a walk - as it were.
 
From Hull (on the river Humber) it's ~360 km to Dover, which means that at a speed of 20 knots is ~9¾ hours away, raise that to 25 knots and it drops to ~7¾ hours.
 
From Hull (on the river Humber) it's ~360 km to Dover, which means that at a speed of 20 knots is ~9¾ hours away, raise that to 25 knots and it drops to ~7¾ hours.
And in those 7 3/4 hours even travelling at 5kn the barges will have made it across the Channel and if the crossing is at night it will then be daylight with the added dangers that poses ... I'm only interested in ships that would have been available in the first clashes. After that the RN are going to have their mediums and heavies available and will undoubtedly win the day.
 
And in those 7 3/4 hours even travelling at 5kn the barges will have made it across the Channel and if the crossing is at night it will then be daylight with the added dangers that poses ... I'm only interested in ships that would have been available in the first clashes. After that the RN are going to have their mediums and heavies available and will undoubtedly win the day.
That was why I thought it would be interesting to do it by time bands - it gives you an idea of how long the Germans have got before getting kerb-stomped by the Home Fleet or similar. That in turn (from looking at the available barges) lets you make some conclusion as to what the Germans could get ashore, and what forces might be afloat and so risk being lost.
 
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