Where would a surviving (Western) Roman Empire turn to?

Erizium · Apr 28, 2016

A Western Rome with peak borders. Would Rome focus on reclaiming the East, stay within it's borders, eiliminare and possibly conquer the surrounding tribes, or try attempts at colonization?

You can mold the Rome in any form you like, as long as there are minimal border changes to the empire and they identify themselves as Roman

Karolus Rex · Apr 28, 2016

Erizium said:
A Western Rome with peak borders. Would Rome focus on reclaiming the East, stay within it's borders, eiliminare and possibly conquer the surrounding tribes, or try attempts at colonization?

You can mold the Rome in any form you like, as long as there are minimal border changes to the empire and they identify themselves as Roman

Depends.

For the Romans the Empire was never divided, for them the Empire was always intact, it was only ruled by two Emperors.

Justinian is always bashed for expanding West, overstretching the resources of the East, but for a Roman Emperor, what he was doing was recovering the rest of the Empire.

Given that you don't say the time of this surviving WRE one can only expect them to try to regain the Eastern Empire.

Agricola · Apr 28, 2016

Karolus Rex said:
Given that you don't say the time of this surviving WRE one can only expect them to try to regain the Eastern Empire.

The emperor of the WRE was always the junior Augustus. At least from an eastern point of view. The East is also more powerful. The WRE trying to regain the East is like the tail is waggling the dog. The WRE can only hope to become fully independent and that not another Theodosius appears, who starts a bloody civil war, just to make clear, who is the senior.

A WRE within its peak borders (around 400 AD this is) as the OP asked for, has a hard time to survive at all, in the 5th century. In the 6th century it is busy to reconquer all it had lost, and in the 7th century it perhaps fights the Muslims in Africa and Sicily. There is no room for anything else than fighting to survive.

Karolus Rex · Apr 28, 2016

Agricola said:
The emperor of the WRE was always the junior Augustus. At least from an eastern point of view. The East is also more powerful. The WRE trying to regain the East is like the tail is waggling the dog. The WRE can only hope to become fully independent and that not another Theodosius appears, who starts a bloody civil war, just to make clear, who is the senior.

A WRE within its peak borders (around 400 AD this is) as the OP asked for, has a hard time to survive at all, in the 5th century. In the 6th century it is busy to reconquer all it had lost, and in the 7th century it perhaps fights the Muslims in Africa and Sicily. There is no room for anything else than fighting to survive.

The OP said that it were the borders at its peack so I assumed a scenario were the WRE stays in top form.

In such a scenario I assume they would try to gain the East, after all while the East had the money the West has access to the Galic manpower.

If you are correct and I missunderstood the scenario and the OP is speaking of the historical max borders the West would just try to defend itself for in 400 thay were foederati dependent.

eliphas8 · Apr 28, 2016

How does Rome maintain those borders while still being divided in two?

Agricola · Apr 28, 2016

Karolus Rex said:
The OP said that it were the borders at its peack so I assumed a scenario were the WRE stays in top form.

The OP also talked about the WRE. Officially the WRE did not exist until the division of the empire in 395. The empire lost its peak borders already a bit earlier. Franks in Germania Inferior and Berbers in Mauretania, ... and more.

But coming from a divison in 395, we are talking about the WRE with the borders of 395 to 406. But perhaps I am fully wrong, or the OP does not know, what he is asking for at all.

PS: Of course the division of the empire is a modern construct. From a roman point of view there was never a division at all, and the WRE never existed.

moxn · Apr 28, 2016

Erizium said:
A Western Rome with peak borders. Would Rome focus on reclaiming the East, stay within it's borders, eiliminare and possibly conquer the surrounding tribes, or try attempts at colonization?

You can mold the Rome in any form you like, as long as there are minimal border changes to the empire and they identify themselves as Roman

Rome's always going to be looking east to Persia for plundering and conquering for both wealth and glory, but they could never take any large pieces of the region and keep it long.

The only other places with much wealth and urbanization that they could be interested in would be around Arabia, especially southern Arabia, and Ethiopia and the horn of Africa. However, both areas are way too far for the empire to ever hope to take.

If the empire continues to survive for whatever reason, they would have more and more interest in an urbanizing and developing Germania, and would have better ability to take it since more and more of the native population would start to move to cities. The empire would also be able to take Caledonia and Hibernia for glory and to stop pirate raids, but there was just never any political will because of the lack of money to be made from each area.

Karolus Rex · Apr 28, 2016

Agricola said:
The OP also talked about the WRE. Officially the WRE did not exist until the division of the empire in 395. The empire lost its peak borders already a bit earlier. Franks in Germania Inferior and Berbers in Mauretania, ... and more.

But coming from a divison in 395, we are talking about the WRE with the borders of 395 to 406. But perhaps I am fully wrong, or the OP does not know, what he is asking for at all.

PS: Of course the division of the empire is a modern construct. From a roman point of view there was never a division at all, and the WRE never existed.

Maybe the OP used the Wiki that states the WRE went from 285–476, but the wiki contradicts itself stating that the first Emperor of the WRE was Honorius, so they must consider the WRE as existing from only 395 onwards.

Given that the terms ERE and WRE are modern terms and concepts, to designate a de facto division but that the romans never actually thought as a division, it depends what we considered the WRE.

If the traditional division made by Theodosius, the WRE is only going on the defensive.

If one considers the Gallic Emperors as some sort of pre-WR Emperors then the options are many.

The Tetrarchy and Constantine Dynasty also present ad hoc divisions, between Emperors.

The Valentinian dynasty also divided the administration between Gratian and Valentinian II, with Gratian the senior leading the West and Valentinian the junior on the East.

It all depends on what the OP considers as the WRE.

Agricola · Apr 28, 2016

moxn said:
Rome's always going to be looking east to Persia for plundering and conquering for both wealth and glory, but they were never willing to take any large pieces of the region and keep it long.

Just fixed that for you.

moxn · Apr 28, 2016

Agricola said:
Just fixed that for you.

Part of the reason they were never willing is that people like Hadrian understood that there was no way they could keep those areas, and that trying to hold on to them would just be a huge sink of money and manpower.

Lee-Sensei · Apr 28, 2016

Two Empires that were de facto independent by 395 AD. In any case, the WRE wouldn't be in any position to wage expand. The best i could do is survive.

Russian · Apr 30, 2016

Erizium said:
A Western Rome with peak borders. Would Rome focus on reclaiming the East, stay within it's borders, eiliminare and possibly conquer the surrounding tribes, or try attempts at colonization?

You can mold the Rome in any form you like, as long as there are minimal border changes to the empire and they identify themselves as Roman

Where would strong WRE focus?
I don't know, it depends on the current situation; it is not that determined I mean.
If the ERE is weak that would attract the WRE's attention as it is the richest neighbor with the Roman population easy to incorporate, so that's the most natural way of expansion.
But if the ERE is reasonably strong, then the Germanic territories and the Berber lands are the objects of the Roman expansion and aggression.

That would be fortunate if the WRE is not too over-strained with fighting too many wars when the Great Plague hits.

It is very hard to imagine a strong ATL WRE - you need a couple of "good emperors" reorganizing army the way that the 'ethnic' Romans are represented there substantially like in the ERE; and the Roman 'fat cats' are forced to pay their taxes like they did in the East or/and brutally repressed.

It is double hard to imagine the strong ATL WRE to concentrate on keeping what it has and focusing on the defensive measures: constructing the city walls, fortresses in the strategic places and other lines of defense, though it is it's best chance to survive the "Justinian Plague".

But 'strong WRE' is in more favorable position than the ERE - the Sassanid Persia and the Arabs are far away.