How does the civil war proceed if Lee at the Alamo really happened?

First link to the story for those who haven't read it. http://www.tor.com/2011/09/07/lee-at-the-alamo/

Now a quick summary of it, PoD is David Twiggs gets an illness that prevents him from taking command of the Department of Texas and thus Lee is given the job. When the Texas secedes from the Union he refuses to hand over the supplies and he holds out for a couple weeks fighting the Texans. Eventually he surrenders but is able to burn everything that the Union had stored there. He gets sent back north and by the time he arrives in Washington to hear of Lincoln's and Scott's offer of command of the Union Army his beloved Virginia has already left the Union. Lee is eventually convinced by Scott and Lincoln to take command in the west as he's already fought the rebels and will also not directly be fighting Virginia.

So with that out of the way how would the civil war proceed with Lee fighting out west with the Union?

It's been discussed before.

A lot depends on what you think of Lee as a military man. OTL, his first campaigns in West Virginia were too complicated and he didn't have great rapport with his men. ATL, the men he's going to command out west are going to be cruder and rougher than his standard. OTL, he got the nickname Granny Lee from that time period.

He also, pretty undisputedly, was too offensive-minded and careless of his men's lives to an extent. But out west, his free-wheeling aggression may prove just what the doctor, or Abe Lincoln, ordered.

A lot depends on how fast he morphs from Granny Lee to Robert E. Lee By The Grace Of God. A lot depends on his subordinates. OTL, in Virginia, he basically had assembled his own personal Band of Brothers, somewhat like Adm. Nelson. In this story, we see that already happening with Thomas. I see Thomas being a very trusted subordinate, very much in the Longstreet role. Sherman would make an effective Jackson, but I'm not sure Lee would like him much, or vice versa. Despite having similar personalities in a way, I'm not sure I see Lee taking a liking to Grant. Of course, the POD here is early enough that the mix of officers that rise to the top could be very different.

OTL Lee seemed to be very good at getting his troop's affection. That will probably happen ATL also, especially since he starts with a big reputation as a national hero.

Lee's relationship with Lincoln is a big wild card. OTL, Lee and Davis got along very well. They were simpatico in ways that Lee and Lincoln could never be. A big flash point is going to be politics and military meddling. Lincoln was a consummate politician and couldn't help meddling with military affairs when he thought it was advisable politically. This isn't going to sit well with Lee at all. One hopeful sign is that Lee and Lincoln seem to have taken each other's measure in their meeting. Lincoln's good political instincts may warn him away from too much meddling with Lee, especially since Lee is a national hero. If Lee has some early success, he may get the kid glove treatment from Lincoln. Winfield Scott as a buffer will probably also help in the early going. What to do with "contrabands" is going to be a possible early sticking point. Lee wasn't necessarily a big pro-slavery guy but he was fairly big on legality. With the right legal cover and the right breaks, this could work out fairly easily. At the same time, its easy to see how Lee could return slaves to their owners in the early stages, get the radicals worked up as a consequence, and create a political mess that would be sticky for Lincoln to handle and that would get Lee's back up. Out west, in the early going with Missouri and Kentucky, you may have some issues there too. Some of the stuff that happened early on was of dubious legality. Lee might balk.

Here a couple of links where the idea has been kicked around before:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=302449

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=287709

For people who have trouble accepting Turtledove's conclusion that Lee would be willing to take a command out west, there's the idea in the second link that as a secondary POD or as a butterfly, the Virginia secession convention is legally a tiny bit dubious because some unionist convention members are arrested or because some cases of unionist voters being harassed and kept from the polls are publicized.

mrmandias said:

Here a couple of links where the idea has been kicked around before:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=302449

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=287709

For people who have trouble accepting Turtledove's conclusion that Lee would be willing to take a command out west, there's the idea in the second link that as a secondary POD or as a butterfly, the Virginia secession convention is legally a tiny bit dubious because some unionist convention members are arrested or because some cases of unionist voters being harassed and kept from the polls are publicized.

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I saw those but they were both old enough that I needed to create a new thread. I could see the Virginia secession being a bit dubious being enough along with what happened in the story to be what pushes Lee to stay with the union.

didn't read either link, but....
anytime Turtledove proposes something, it is purely out of convenience for where he wants his story to go. a good writer (I question that, but some think so) maybe. AH, the guy is a hack. If Turtledove argues that Lee would take the western post, I'll automatically assume he probably wouldn't, or at the very least that there is no logic behind the argument.

unprincipled peter said:

didn't read either link, but....
anytime Turtledove proposes something, it is purely out of convenience for where he wants his story to go. a good writer (I question that, but some think so) maybe. AH, the guy is a hack. If Turtledove argues that Lee would take the western post, I'll automatically assume he probably wouldn't, or at the very least that there is no logic behind the argument.

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Eh it's mainly his longer stories and series that tend to do that. His short stories like this one are normally quite good.

I agree, the short stories are more entertaining.

His series are excruciatingly repetitive. It is all the same with each book.

His 12 main characters each have five chapters where they do and say and think the same exact things. Then, at the end of the book, one of them dies. Nothing else happens.

He turns 400 pages of content into a 4 or 5 book series.

Y'all should read the story before complaining.

mrmandias said:

A lot depends on how fast he morphs from Granny Lee to Robert E. Lee By The Grace Of God. A lot depends on his subordinates. OTL, in Virginia, he basically had assembled his own personal Band of Brothers, somewhat like Adm. Nelson. In this story, we see that already happening with Thomas. I see Thomas being a very trusted subordinate, very much in the Longstreet role. Sherman would make an effective Jackson, but I'm not sure Lee would like him much, or vice versa. Despite having similar personalities in a way, I'm not sure I see Lee taking a liking to Grant. Of course, the POD here is early enough that the mix of officers that rise to the top could be very different.

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The Thomas-Lee relationship would be strong, given that Thomas was practically his protege having been posted together for such a long time. So him being a type of Longstreet is not that surprising.

Sherman is definitely a Jackson. Nothing else needs to be said.

Anyway, the question here is whether or not Lee has a good relationship with the other commanders, ala: Halleck and McClearnard. I say this mostly in relation to their own personal relationship with Grant. Grant and Lee, i would say, would maybe - possibly - get along spectacularly well. But i would think that if the charges of Grant drinking actually continue this time around, Lee himself would proabably come down and literally look at the evidence for himself and not actually do what Halleck did and jump to conclusions.

Lee's "Band of Brothers" would also include James McPherson, whome he also had a good relationship with - that is if he comes out west.

Alt History Buff said:

I agree, the short stories are more entertaining.

His series are excruciatingly repetitive. It is all the same with each book.

His 12 main characters each have five chapters where they do and say and think the same exact things. Then, at the end of the book, one of them dies. Nothing else happens.

He turns 400 pages of content into a 4 or 5 book series.

Click to expand...

I fully agree. His newer novels aren't as enjoyable as the older ones.

I stopped reading his War That Came Early series. It seemed like each chapter was about a soldier sitting in a trench feeling a great need for rest, a cigarette, and a visit to a brothel. Turtledove would just rotate through the combatants with this same theme. He dragged this out for so long that I completely lost interest.

That said, "Lee at the Alamo" is a good story and worth reading.

mrmandias said:

For people who have trouble accepting Turtledove's conclusion that Lee would be willing to take a command out west, there's the idea in the second link that as a secondary POD or as a butterfly, the Virginia secession convention is legally a tiny bit dubious because some unionist convention members are arrested or because some cases of unionist voters being harassed and kept from the polls are publicized.

Click to expand...

Admiral Halsey said:

I saw those but they were both old enough that I needed to create a new thread. I could see the Virginia secession being a bit dubious being enough along with what happened in the story to be what pushes Lee to stay with the union.

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I think the point is that Lee, iTTL has already fought FOR the Union. Is he suddenly going to switch sides, even if Virginia is now on the Rebel side. He'd look awfully silly fighting for both sides - and would make his actions in Texas dishonorable - or his actions later.

I really don't think that you need any secondary PoD, at all. Sure, it's not a slam-dunk that he would stay with the Union. But it's equally not a slam-dunk that he'd switch sides.


As for not bumping those old threads, you should indeed not do that. However, you could link those threads so others could go see what had been said, and not try to re-invent the wheel, as it were.

I'm glad this thread started.

Having read the short story, I have had the idea floating around in my head to someday write a fan-fic continuation of it someday. Still won't be for a little while yet though. I want it to be well researched and I haven't quite started on that process yet...

Any ways, since I've been thinking of it, I do have a few ideas of how it would turn out.

For one I can imagine Lee's strategies in the west being somewhat similar to Grant's. Both of them, if I am not mistaken, were aggressive commanders; I can see Lee behaving similarly to Grant in the same position.

Secondly, I have thought that with out Lee and his decision to go ahead and surrender even when some Confederates were still wanting to continue fighting even if as guerrillas, some Southern soldiers might do just that. A continuing resistance would definitely impact how the Union approached Reconstruction. Would that mean a harsher Reconstruction?

Any ways, any input would be appreciated. Who knows, it may end up as part of a timeline of mine someday (I hope)...

ITTL Lee has already declared for the Union. If he goes back to Virginia he will be looked upon as a turncoat at best, traitor at worst.

You know, this is pretty persuasive. Especially, given the right breaks, I could see Lee and Grant being a sort of unstoppable tandem who had an almost intuitive understanding of each other militarily, because their approaches were so similar.

Did Lee and Grant know each other in the old army before the war? If so, what was their relationship like? That might influence the POD.

Darth_Kiryan said:

The Thomas-Lee relationship would be strong, given that Thomas was practically his protege having been posted together for such a long time. So him being a type of Longstreet is not that surprising.

Sherman is definitely a Jackson. Nothing else needs to be said.

Anyway, the question here is whether or not Lee has a good relationship with the other commanders, ala: Halleck and McClearnard. I say this mostly in relation to their own personal relationship with Grant. Grant and Lee, i would say, would maybe - possibly - get along spectacularly well. But i would think that if the charges of Grant drinking actually continue this time around, Lee himself would proabably come down and literally look at the evidence for himself and not actually do what Halleck did and jump to conclusions.

Lee's "Band of Brothers" would also include James McPherson, whome he also had a good relationship with - that is if he comes out west.

Click to expand...

Sir Prizing said:

Secondly, I have thought that with out Lee and his decision to go ahead and surrender even when some Confederates were still wanting to continue fighting even if as guerrillas, some Southern soldiers might do just that. A continuing resistance would definitely impact how the Union approached Reconstruction. Would that mean a harsher Reconstruction?

Click to expand...

If the main CSA generals are, say, Longstreet or Johnston, I still think they'd surrender. Guerilla war is really hard on the population, and you have to be a real bitter-ender to be willing to put your homeland through that.

mrmandias said:

You know, this is pretty persuasive. Especially, given the right breaks, I could see Lee and Grant being a sort of unstoppable tandem who had an almost intuitive understanding of each other militarily, because their approaches were so similar.

Did Lee and Grant know each other in the old army before the war? If so, what was their relationship like? That might influence the POD.

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They met once in Mexico. Briefly. The next time they met OTL was the surrender at Appomattox.

mrmandias said:

If the main CSA generals are, say, Longstreet or Johnston, I still think they'd surrender. Guerilla war is really hard on the population, and you have to be a real bitter-ender to be willing to put your homeland through that.

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Hmm... What do you think is the chance of small bands still holding out? In the case you mentioned probably about the same as OTL.

BTW, you wouldn't happen to have some sources on this matter that you would recommend?

Sir Prizing said:

Hmm... What do you think is the chance of small bands still holding out? In the case you mentioned probably about the same as OTL.

BTW, you wouldn't happen to have some sources on this matter that you would recommend?

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No, I'm just going of Longstreet and Johnston's OTL record. Neither were bitter-enders. Longstreet even joined the Republican party in a kind of reconciliation gesture, and Johnston surrendered OTL.

There were a few who did just this, however;

alexcoppo said:

ITTL Lee has already declared for the Union. If he goes back to Virginia he will be looked upon as a turncoat at best, traitor at worst.

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There were a few who did just this, however; there was at least one RA officer who fought at 1st Bull Run with the U.S. Forces and then, essentially, deserted and ended up with rebels, and quite a few former rebels who took the oath and became "galvanized." Interesting example is EW Gantt, who commanded a rebel regiment from Arkansas, surrendered with McCown's force at Island Number 10, and then declared for the U.S.

Lee in the western theater (meaning Kentucky-Tennessee) is one possibility; Missouri-Arkansas is another, in place of Fremont in 1861.

The Department of the Pacific is another, in place of George Wright. There are some obvious cases of loyal officers being sent "west" to avoid familial complications, of course; Thomas is the most well known.

Best,

I think the Kentucky-Tennessee theater is the most likely. Remember, at the early stage in the war we are talking about, Kentucky is still in flux. OTL, Lincoln appointed a widely respected Kentuckian war hero to the area, the commander of Ft. Sumter, Maj. Anderson. Lee isn't a Kentuckian, but as a genuine war hero and a "southern gentlemen," Lincoln will probably follow the same logic as OTL and appoint him to a position in that theater.