No AK-47

What would happen if we were to butterfly the creation of the AK-47 by killing its creator, Mikhail Kalashnikov, in WWII? Specifically, what would be the rifle used in its place as an assault rifle? Looking through the Sovey rifles, it seems that nearly all are variants of the AK-47. Were there any alternate models offered? And in the absence of the AK, what would be the weapon(s?) that various militias, terrorists, and rebels around the world use?
 
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falblackguy2xu4da.jpg
 
Something else firing 7.62×39mm I think there where a load of different designs.

RPD and SKS come to mind but I'm sure there are many that didn't go into production.

JSB
 

Deleted member 1487

What would happen if we were to butterfly the creation of the AK-47 by killing its creator, Mikhail Kalashnikov, in WWII? Specifically, what would be the rifle used in its place as an assault rifle? Looking through the Sovey rifles, it seems that nearly all are variants of the AK-47. We're there any alternate models offered? And in the absence of the AK, what would be the weapon(s?) that various militias, terrorists, and rebels around the world use?

The AK-47 was simply the best of a series of rifles being tested at the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47#Development_and_competition
Kalashnikov and his design team from factory number two in Kovrov submitted an entry. It was a gas-operated rifle which had a breech-block mechanism similar to his 1944 carbine, and a curved 30-round magazine. Kalashnikov's rifles (codenamed AK-1 and −2, the former with a milled receiver and the latter with a stamped one) proved to be reliable and the weapon was accepted to second round of competition along with designs by A. A. Dementyev (KB-P-520) and A. A. Bulkin (TKB-415). In late 1946, as the rifles were being tested, one of Kalashnikov's assistants, Aleksandr Zaitsev, suggested a major redesign of AK-1, particularly to improve reliability. At first, Kalashnikov was reluctant, given that their rifle had already fared better than its competitors. Eventually, however, Zaitsev managed to persuade Kalashnikov. The new rifle (factory name KB-P-580) proved to be simple and reliable under a wide range of conditions with convenient handling characteristics; prototypes with serial numbers one to three were completed in November 1947. Production of the first army trial series began in early 1948 at the Izhevsk factory number 524,[25] and in 1949 it was adopted by the Soviet Army as "7.62 mm Kalashnikov assault rifle (AK)".[10]

Basically a lesser rifle gets selected and improved, so the Soviet AR is something less well liked, but pretty similar overall.
 

Neirdak

Banned
What would happen if we were to butterfly the creation of the AK-47 by killing its creator, Mikhail Kalashnikov, in WWII? Specifically, what would be the rifle used in its place as an assault rifle? Looking through the Sovey rifles, it seems that nearly all are variants of the AK-47. We're there any alternate models offered? And in the absence of the AK, what would be the weapon(s?) that various militias, terrorists, and rebels around the world use?

AK47 was produced in 1949. We know that the submachine guns used by Soviet Union were the PPS-43 and the PPSh-41. The weapon you think of, which was used by various militias, terrorists, and rebels around the world, is the AKM 59, a variant of the AK-47. I am nitpicking, sorry. :(

The AK-47 is inspired of the Sturmgewehr 44. Sturmgewehr 44 is excellent for a weapon of its type. Its effective range is about 400 yards, although the Germans claim in their operating manual that the normal effective range is about 650 yards. The leaf sight is graduated up to 800 meters. This weapon was also cheap and easy to produce, cheaper than an AK-47. They were later used by the Vietcongs and other rebels around the world. You can still find some of them in rebellious hands nowadays. His successor StG 45 was great too, but more expensive.

Now your big question, what would happen if Mikhail Kalashnikov died in WWII? I will shock you, but AK-47 had two rivals. The Sudaev AS-44 or Tokarev 7.62x41, those three guns were all inspired of the Sturmgewehr 44. They were babies of StG 44 and an old tsarist gun, called the Fedorov's Avtomat. Then if Mikhail Kalashnikov died, Soviet Union would probably start to work from either Sudaev AS-44 or Tokarev 7.62x41, which were very similar to AK-47. They were look-alike.

Later, AK-47 was almost rejected twice by Soviet military forces ... in favor of AB-46 by Bulkin and AD by Dementiev. So without Mikhail Kalashnikov, we would probably have ABM-59 and ADM-59 or similar designs from other plants and engineers.


From http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-akm-e.html :

1)
In December 1946 new assault rifles were tested at NIPSMVO range, with AS-44 being used as a control (its development has ceased earlier in 1946 due to untimely death of the Sudaev, who was severely ill by the 1945). As an initial result of these tests, the AK-46 was selected for further development by trials commission, with two more weapons selected for further evolution being rifles from designers Dementiev and Bulkin. The second round of trials, which included three weapons (AK-46 by Kalashnikov, AB-46 by Bulkin and AD by Dementiev), resulted in rejection of the improved AK-46, which was inferior to other rivals in many aspects (to be continued in the link).

2)

After extensive tests, conducted in December 1947 - January 1948, which included slightly improved Dementiev KB-P-410, Bulkin TKB-415 and all-new Kalashnikov AK-47 rifles, results were somewhat inconclusive. The AK-47 was found to be most durable and reliable out of three contestants, but it also dragged behind the other two in the accuracy department, especially in full automatic (which was, and still is considered the primary mode of fire for assault rifle in Russia). In fact, the only weapon that fulfilled accuracy requirements was the Bulkin AB-47 / TKB-415, but it had certain problems with parts durability. After lengthy discussion, trials commission finally decided that the better is the enemy of the good, and it is advisable to have not-so accurate but reliable weapon now, rather than to wait indefinitely for accurate-and -reliable weapon in the future. This decision ultimately lead commission to recommend AK-47 for troops trials in November, 1947. It was decided that the production of the new weapon must be commenced at Izhevsk arms plant (now Izhevsk Machine building Plant or IzhMash in short). Kalashnikov has moved from Kovrov to Izhevsk to help with production of the new weapon, which commenced in mid-1948. Official adoption followed late in 1949, with standard nomenclature being '7.62mm avtomat Kalashnikova AK' (7.62mm automatic carbine Kalashnikov). At the same time, a folding buttstock version was adopted for airborne units use, as '7.62mm avtomat Kalashnikova skladnoy AKS' (7.62mm automatic carbine Kalashnikov, folding).

3)
Trials for new weapons were held in 1957-58. Kalashnikov team from Izhevsk submitted an improved AK with new type of stamped receiver and other minor improvements, which competed against a number of weapons from other design teams from the Kovrov and Tula. In technical terms, the Kalashnikov entry fared about average in these trials, with certain rival weapons proving to be more combat-effective and less expensive to make. The trials commission, however, decided again that the better is the enemy of the good, and recommended the improved AK for adoption due to its proven performance and familiarity to the industry and troops. It was officially adopted in 1959 as the AKM (Avtomat Kalashnikova Modernizirovannyj - Kalashnikov Automatic rifle, Modified) along with companion RPK squad automatic weapon / light machine gun.

An AK-47 equivalent, similar to it in design and process, was sure to be built ...

- http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/ak-akm-e.html (history of the AKM, Sudaev AS-44 or Tokarev 7.62x41)
- http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/automatic-fedorov-e.html (grand daddy Fedorov's Avtomat)
- http://world.guns.ru/assault/de/mp-43-mp-44-stg44-e.html (StG-44)

-> StG-44 or variants of AK-47 competitors. like this badass of 1946 http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html
 
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What would happen if we were to butterfly the creation of the AK-47 by killing its creator, Mikhail Kalashnikov, in WWII? Specifically, what would be the rifle used in its place as an assault rifle? Looking through the Sovey rifles, it seems that nearly all are variants of the AK-47. Were there any alternate models offered? And in the absence of the AK, what would be the weapon(s?) that various militias, terrorists, and rebels around the world use?

The cartridge existed independent of Kalashnikov. They would probably marry it up to the action of the PPS-43 or have Sudarev design a new rifle for it.

Edit: Apparently Sudarev died in 1945, however, he was already designing and testing an AK-like rifle called the AS-44. It could be improved and then issued.
 

Neirdak

Banned
So he thinks the FAL could be a good candidate as a favorite? What does anybody have to say about that?

Why would a belgian-designed rifle, mainly used by NATO countries, be produced and sold/given, in very large quantities, to rebels and militias around the world during the Cold War?

I know it can be produced under license for foreign armies, but I don't understand how rebels and militias could get their hands on them. Perhaps if USA began to help capitalist rebels/militias and capitalist terrorists in Soviet and Communist countries. :confused:

I would vote for the old StG-44 or for a Soviet assault rifle (not produced by Kalashnikov) close to the AK-47 for the reasons explained in my post above.

Something else could be a Maoist assault rifle from a Chinese engineer (for the reasons of quantity and avaiability) :cool:
 
Why would a belgian-designed rifle, mainly used by NATO countries, be produced and sold/given, in very large quantities, to rebels and militias around the world during the Cold War?
It was the western version of the AK-47 being that it fired a fuck-off massive bullet and was rugged as hell. If you want it as an AK-47 replacement just have the Soviets copy it and start churning out knock-offs that they give to their allies. I mean it's not as though they were ever great respecters of international patents or copyright if it didn't suit them.
 

Neirdak

Banned
It was the western version of the AK-47 being that it fired a fuck-off massive bullet and was rugged as hell. If you want it as an AK-47 replacement just have the Soviets copy it and start churning out knock-offs that they give to their allies. I mean it's not as though they were ever great respecters of international patents or copyright if it didn't suit them.

Because a rifle/gun is always built with a "theory of war" and context of use inside its design. You're looking at the two guns, AK and FAL in a vacuum. Consider the time, the soldier it was meant for, the way and conditions or the army it was designed for, how they had to fight in and the resulting type of soldier it went to. You can even think about how easy it was for developing nations to produce and maintain them. Any guns can and must be analyzed according to its "theory of war" and context of use.

- The FAL is a perfect example of a Western military thought battle rifle. It was accurate, powerful enough to nail any enemy soldier you can see, more expensive to manufacture, designed for professional soldiers well trained in individual semi-auto marksmanship.

- AK-47 was cheaper and simpler, easy to mass produce and reliable. Soviet troops and later guerilleros weren't trained in semi-auto marksmanship. It emphasized mass and the whole rather than the individual. It was an assault rifle.

They had their own advantages and their own defaults from different categories :

- FAL = longer range, bigger bullet

- AKM = lighter, smaller, and larger mag capacity

We could also speak and debate about engagement distance and ammo size. If you fight at ranges under 25 yards, the assault rifle has an edge. Between 25 and maybe 100 they're about equal. At extended ranges or through hard cover, the battle rifle has an edge. Another problem is the weight of the ammo. If you have to carry 500 rounds of assault rifle ammo and 500 of battle rifle ammo, guess which weighs more. Was the big bullet of the FAL really useful?

By the way, the Israelis were armed with FALs in the 1960s. They found that they were excellent for long-range shooting, but that they were prone to failure in sandy conditions. An FN-FAL might be a great rifle for western Europe, but they're not so good in the desert and probably not in the jungle. FAL was the equivalent of the American M-14. The FAL has several good things going for it, including the adjustable gas system and the low centerline of the bore (in relation to the receiver). It is a robust design and very reliable. It is, however, expensive to manufacture and relatively complex in assembly.

The AK fit the role it was designed for perfectly. An utterly reliable (even at the cost of accuracy), easy to use rifle that could lay down a lot of lead fast. The FAL is perhaps a better rifle all around, but considering the AK's intended purpose I wouldn't use a FAL for it.

Your scenario is possible, but the guerilleros would need to be better trained and wouldn't be able to use them the same way AK-47 was used, which would create a lot of butterflies. :(

-> Soviets would use their best designs as close as possible to AKM :

- Korobov-tkb-40 http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html
- AB-46 by Bulkin http://survincity.com/2010/08/the-main-rival-of-ak-47-on-the-competitive-tests/
- AD by Dementiev (no link sorry :( )
 
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The thing is the scenario is already close to OTL. The FAL was probably just behind the AK-47 in numbers distributed across the world, including to guerrilla movements. Hell, someone already posted a picture of a FAL in the hands of a militant. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see the FAL having even more recognition and use in the absence of the AK, given that it's already one of history's most widely used rifles.
 
Wasn't the FAL supposed to use 7mm and be a assault rife but NATO(US) standardisation(stupidity) stopped that ? :p

And no I think the USSR would not have used it they would just use the next best design in there completion. (or a MP44 but that's to German !)

JSB
 

Neirdak

Banned
Wasn't the FAL supposed to use 7mm and be a assault rife but NATO(US) standardisation(stupidity) stopped that ? :p

And no I think the USSR would not have used it they would just use the next best design in there completion. (or a MP44 but that's to German !)

JSB

It's just an example of a Soviet AK-47's clone not produced by Kalashnikov. They were all going in the same direction and were all inspired of the StG-44 and Federov's Automat.

The main rival of AK-47 on the competitive tests — automatic Bulkin AB-46 :
- http://survincity.com/2010/08/the-main-rival-of-ak-47-on-the-competitive-tests/ :eek:
 
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NothingNow

Banned
Specifically, what would be the rifle used in its place as an assault rifle?
An Automatic development of the SKS or an AB-46 development most likely. A tilting bolt system can handle fully automatic stresses without giving up too much in the way of durability.

Were there any alternate models offered?
A bunch that people already described. A Simonov would probably end up being the one that finally got adopted though.

And in the absence of the AK, what would be the weapon(s?) that various militias, terrorists, and rebels around the world use?
The FAL, SKS, automatic SKS or AB-46 developments and submachine guns. Maybe the vz.58 if the Czechs manage to luck out on the export market? They are pretty prized weapons after all, and much more friendly to experienced users than the AKM, while still being more controllable than an FAL on full auto.
 
On a slightly different mark could a FAL in 7mm have been more popular than the AK ?

A 7mm FAL built by the Belgium's and GB
Could have been accepted by NATO
Could have been used instead of the G3 by Germany
Used by the USA instead of M14 :p
Could be given to loads of other client states (both US/GB)

How many can we get to total ?

Would it outdo the AK ? (admittedly china and USSR have big land army's full of conscripts needing guns :().

JSB
 
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