WI: George Romney in 1964

Kennedy was absolutely terrified about running against George Romney in 1964. He had a strong Civil Rights record, he was morally pure and appealed to God and country, he looked good, spoke well, and he could perhaps win a South which would vote for anyone but Kennedy.

Rockefeller was divorced and could be beaten on the moral issue, and indeed that cost him the nomination. Goldwater was a radical Conservative and could be beaten very easily in that regard, as indeed he was. Romney was another thing entirely. And to debunk it now, when Romney ran in 1968, his Mormonism was not an issue; what was more an issue was the fact that he was born in Mexico to American parents, and whether or not he was therefore a natural born citizen. Even that, so far as I am aware, was not much of an issue.

So let's assume George Romney, while in religious meditation one day, believes God is compelling him to seek the Republican nomination for 1964. How well would he do in seeking the Republican nomination, and how well would he do running in the general election of 1964.
 
I think that if George Romney did not self destruct in 1964, which is a strong possibility given his 1968 campaign, he would have made for a very competitive 1964 for Kennedy, and perhaps less so but far more so than Goldwater for Johnson.
 

Realpolitik

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Yeah, on the Mormon thing, how is that for ironic?

The nomination will be hard for the same reason that nomination for a guy like Muskie would be hard in 1972-the ideologues were determined to have their chance after a moderate lost a close controversial one four years earlier. 1964 was a very tense convention. The Rockefeller types still did have influence, but they were booed by the conservative delegates, and Goldwater was easily nominated. Romney will have similar problems.

For the general, depends whether it is Kennedy or Johnson. I think the Democrat would win in either case, but JFK would be in for a pretty tough race and could lose, depending on how things go without the assassination.

If the assassination and Civil Rights Act still occurs though, there is absolutely no way Johnson loses, regardless of what Romney does. Johnson will have public momentum going full speed in their direction, Romney will look redundant if he still sticks to Civil Rights and liberalism, and Johnson was also a better (and FAR more ruthless) politician with incumbency and all the advantages that this implies. Johnson might not have the same level of landslide, but he will still win decisively.

EDIT:

It's sort of 72 in reverse-Johnson probably would have beaten any Republican that year. The GOP picking a bad candidate merely cemented that and turned it into a complete debacle.

Whenever a candidate, and especially an incumbent gets into the 40, 45+ state range in their electoral college victory, that makes a very strong statement on what America feels.
 
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Regardless of the failure of the ticket, there is a lot of possibilities had the Republicans nominated a moderate. There were a lot of things that were prospects or thought of which fell by the wayside when Goldwater won the nomination and it became an easy election for the Democrats as a result. Let me also say Romney is in a position of Rockefeller without all the baggage - both in terms of his divorce and in terms of being the embodiment of the Left Wing of the GOP which makes him a hot potato.

Romney gaining the nomination could mean George Wallace running on a third party, which he put off until 1968, which would split off the Solid South or a large portion of it from the Democrats and split votes that the Republicans could have gotten. As stated, the Southern Democrats could still have turned to the Republican party purely because of being against the current administration and their Civil Rights policy. Wallace running as a third party would complicate that.

In a Johnson scenario, what it could also mean is Lyndon Johnson having to nominate Robert Kennedy as his running mate. The Democrats really did want RFK, he had the momentum, and Johnson was worried he would have to make him his running mate if Rockefeller, for example, gained the nomination. As it turned out, Goldwater was the nominee, and Johnson could have run with really anyone he wanted and it wouldn't have mattered. In this universe, Johnson I think would have made Robert Kennedy his running mate, and if you argue he wouldn't, he'd have at least come pretty damn close to doing so to compete with Romney.

That said, Robert Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson famously hated each other whatsoever, which was the whole problem. However, Johnson did understand political necessities and he did, in the OTL, back Kennedy politically elsewhere. Its also a fact that Johnson treated Humphrey shoddily as vice president. He shut him out for a year, for example, when he disagreed with the president over Vietnam.He made him request every time he needed a plane or something. The list goes on. So there may be a OTL precedent.

So, in short, this would be a great scenario for getting Robert Kennedy to be Lyndon Johnson's vice president.

Also, I think Romney is the Republican's best chance of winning 1964. And I think its a great untapped scenario to have George Romney win the 1964 election in some "Fear, Loathing, Gumbo" type timeline. And you could do that with either Kennedy or Johnson.
 

Realpolitik

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Regardless of the failure of the ticket, there is a lot of possibilities had the Republicans nominated a moderate. There were a lot of things that were prospects or thought of which fell by the wayside when Goldwater won the nomination and it became an easy election for the Democrats as a result. Let me also say Romney is in a position of Rockefeller without all the baggage - both in terms of his divorce and in terms of being the embodiment of the Left Wing of the GOP which makes him a hot potato.

Romney gaining the nomination could mean George Wallace running on a third party, which he put off until 1968, which would split off the Solid South or a large portion of it from the Democrats and split votes that the Republicans could have gotten. As stated, the Southern Democrats could still have turned to the Republican party purely because of being against the current administration and their Civil Rights policy. Wallace running as a third party would complicate that.

In a Johnson scenario, what it could also mean is Lyndon Johnson having to nominate Robert Kennedy as his running mate. The Democrats really did want RFK, he had the momentum, and Johnson was worried he would have to make him his running mate if Rockefeller, for example, gained the nomination. As it turned out, Goldwater was the nominee, and Johnson could have run with really anyone he wanted and it wouldn't have mattered. In this universe, Johnson I think would have made Robert Kennedy his running mate, and if you argue he wouldn't, he'd have at least come pretty damn close to doing so to compete with Romney.

That said, Robert Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson famously hated each other whatsoever, which was the whole problem. However, Johnson did understand political necessities and he did, in the OTL, back Kennedy politically elsewhere. Its also a fact that Johnson treated Humphrey shoddily as vice president. He shut him out for a year, for example, when he disagreed with the president over Vietnam.He made him request every time he needed a plane or something. The list goes on. So there may be a OTL precedent.

So, in short, this would be a great scenario for getting Robert Kennedy to be Lyndon Johnson's vice president.

Also, I think Romney is the Republican's best chance of winning 1964. And I think its a great untapped scenario to have George Romney win the 1964 election in some "Fear, Loathing, Gumbo" type timeline. And you could do that with either Kennedy or Johnson.

Yes, but how does Romney GET the nomination? If the Goldwaterites cared about winning, they would have nominated him.

No. Absolutely not. Hold it right there. After what happened when Lyndon was VP but Bobby the number 2 man? Neither party will go for that. They were not RATIONAL about each other, least of all after JFK got shot. RFK may be the heir to the legacy of JFK, but LBJ is the one who truly controls the party apparatus and doesn't "have" to do anything. It's never, never, never going to happen. And a good thing too, as the power struggles could have serious consequences. As I've mentioned before, Johnson can beat any Republican in 1964, regardless of who has what running mate.

This kind of hatred between giants exceeds any party loyalty.
 
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Yes, but how does Romney GET the nomination? If the Goldwaterites cared about winning, they would have nominated him.

No. Absolutely not. Hold it right there. After what happened when Lyndon was VP but Bobby the number 2 man? Neither party will go for that. They were not RATIONAL about each other, least of all after JFK got shot. RFK may be the heir to the legacy of JFK, but LBJ is the one who truly controls the party apparatus and doesn't "have" to do anything. It's never, never, never going to happen. And a good thing too, as the power struggles could have serious consequences. As I've mentioned before, Johnson can beat any Republican in 1964, regardless of who has what running mate.

This kind of hatred between giants exceeds any party loyalty.

Yeah. I read Mutual Contempt and also other sources, the loathing and seething on both sides of the Bobby/Lyndon divde were utterly insurmountable
 
I should have said could, not would. I don't argue they had contempt for one another. I don't argue it would be a marriage made in hell. What I do argue, as was a thought in the OTL, is that a strong Republican ticket could force Johnson into the position of feeling he had to run with Robert Kennedy. The long term ramifications of that are many. *Pages 184-185
 

Realpolitik

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I should have said could, not would. I don't argue they had contempt for one another. I don't argue it would be a marriage made in hell. What I do argue, as was a thought in the OTL, is that a strong Republican ticket could force Johnson into the position of feeling he had to run with Robert Kennedy. The long term ramifications of that are many. *Pages 184-185


No Republican ticket could be strong enough to make Johnson do that, especially in 1964 when he has all the cards, post assassination and during the Civil Rights Act. Johnson would not be so intimidated of Romney that he would do that, not when he is desperate to show that he is his own man. This is just flat out ASB.

In 1968, Johnson probably would have (and could have, at least in Texas and probably elsewhere in the regular Party) tried to sabotage Bobby if he ran against Nixon. That says it all.
 
If Romney is the nominee, the South will not go Republican. Romney was strongly in support of civil rights, he marched with civil rights protestors. George Wallace will run a third party campaign and sweep the OTL Goldwater states at least, maybe even do better since he isn't a Republican. Strom Thurmond might not even defect in this TL.
 
On the Mormon issue: I don't know of any poll figures for 1964, but in 1967, when George Romney was running, 17 percent of Gallup poll respondents said they would not vote for a Mormon--a figure remarkably similar to that of 18 percent in 2012 when Mitt Romney was running. http://www.gallup.com/poll/155273/bias-against-mormon-presidential-candidate-1967.aspx That figure is not enough to doom George Romney in 1964, but it can't help, given the advantages that Goldwater had in the GOP nomination process (above all, a Solid South, and also the fact that he had a head start in that his followers had been busy organizing and capturing state and local GOP organizations for years) and Johnson (or JFK if he had lived) would have in the general--incumbency at a time of prosperity and peace (yes, there was Vietnam but the US presence there was far from what it would be in 1965).

The basic problem with Romney or any other moderate (leaving aside the problems any Republican would have in 1964) even if they could win the nomination in 1964, is that George Wallace would run as a third party candidate and deprive the Republicans of the support they were counting on in the South and elsewhere stemming from the white backlash over civil rights.
 
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(I didn't intend to leave out a reply to David T, but I burned myself out typing)

No Republican ticket could be strong enough to make Johnson do that, especially in 1964 when he has all the cards, post assassination and during the Civil Rights Act. Johnson would not be so intimidated of Romney that he would do that, not when he is desperate to show that he is his own man. This is just flat out ASB.

In 1968, Johnson probably would have (and could have, at least in Texas and probably elsewhere in the regular Party) tried to sabotage Bobby if he ran against Nixon. That says it all.


Hindsight is 20/20. We have hindsight, and we know how things did turn out and we know the factors in play, and we can say the Democrats are most likely to win 1964 regardless of any other factors. However, that hindsight is not something Johnson has.
It seems every president, including those who won in landslides, were worried about their chances for reelection and not sure if they would be reelected. That's been the case with presidents from Lincoln to (famously) Nixon, even though history shows they were comfortably reelected.

We have the narrative that Johnson has inherited the White House from Kennedy, and Johnson will continue what Kennedy began before being sadly murdered and honor his legacy. But we could have had the narrative that Johnson is not John F. Kennedy, that he looks to Americans like a Southern conservative ticket balancer who may be open to carrying through what Kennedy wanted, and he has not legitimately attained the presidency. It could be a narrative that 1964 would have been a clincher for John Kennedy, but now its an open question to who will succeed him. And regardless of the realities of that narrative, that could have been something playing in Lyndon Johnson's head.

Bear in mind as well, we're opening up the possibility of different things happening after Kennedy's assassination. What Johnson does is make sure he legitimizes himself as Kennedy's successor to the American public, and shows that he's a Liberal who will carry out the domestic agenda, including Kennedy's Civil Rights bill. He does that, meaning he doesn't have to run with Robert Kennedy - something he also does not want to do also because he does not want it to look like he cannot win the presidency on his own, nor does he want to live in the shadow of Kennedy (despite him campaigning heavily on Kennedy's image). Imagine, though, if things falter, such as if Civil Rights legislation doesn't pass before the election.
The Republican nomination of Barry Goldwater is another component. Goldwater does not have a snowball's chance in hell, he's alienated the Republican moderates and the rest of the Rockefeller wing, he's not going to win many others over, and he only won the nomination because of a Conservative zealotry and insurgency in the Republican party. And he's the opposite and the opponent of the Kennedy/Johnson policies. There's no concern about Goldwater winning, and Johnson can really take command of that election, and he can do as he pleases. A moderate Republican is a whole other entity. George Romney looked like a legitimate threat to Kennedy, and I imagine he would look the same to Lyndon Johnson. I imagine Johnson may fear he'd capture voters if Johnson did not prove his legitimacy to the voting public, that he'd get voters who liked Kennedy but did not necessarily like Johnson, that he'd get voters in the North as LBJ was a Texan, etc.

And that's where the hindsight issue comes in. We know Johnson would have won 1964 regardless of what he did. Johnson doesn't know that. He may know that against a Barry Goldwater, but he wouldn't against Rockefeller, Romney, Scranton, etc. So that, plus the possibility for him to not do as well as he did in the OTL leading up to the election, is why he may feel compelled to run with Robert Kennedy. And we do know he thought about it, even though he thought of it as something he didn't want to do but may have had to do.

If Romney is the nominee, the South will not go Republican. Romney was strongly in support of civil rights, he marched with civil rights protestors. George Wallace will run a third party campaign and sweep the OTL Goldwater states at least, maybe even do better since he isn't a Republican. Strom Thurmond might not even defect in this TL.

The issue is not just the issue of race. The issue is also that the South is getting more white collar and beginning to lean Republican. Look at the election map for Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956 and Nixon in 1960. The Solid South is becoming less solid, and the region that is Solid is the Deep South. And that region is even more anti-Black, anti-Civil Rights, and is likely to go to Wallace.

Beating Goldwater would be hard but not ASB. Wallace runs as a third party. He loses to LBJ nut not in a landslide.

Barry Goldwater almost did not run in the OTL. In the wake of the Kennedy assassination, he did not want to run for the nomination anymore, but he was convinced to do it.

That's really an interesting thing for me that's coming out of this thread: the 1964 race of the OTL was pretty close to what it would have been under Kennedy. This scenario opens up a lot of possibilities for things to be much different than they would have been under Kennedy.

Not to infer that it has to be how Romney gets the nomination, but Kennedy's death could have gotten Goldwater out of the race, opening the door for the moderate Republican. As a result of a moderate Republican, there's a strong chance of Wallace running as a third party. That affects the history of the eventual Democratic split and the political evolution of the South, and we could see things unfold much differently. As a result of a moderate Republican, you have the possibility of Johnson feeling he had to run with Robert Kennedy, with all that entails.

EDIT:

My ideal scenario would be for Romney to win the nomination as a compromise between Rockefeller and Goldwater. Maybe have Goldwater drop out for a while and Rockefeller lead the field, before Goldwater coming back ala Ross Perot and acting as a spoiler, with Romney coming through as the compromise.

The pity of it is, if Goldwater had not won the 1964 nomination, it would have probably gone to Rockefeller regardless. And he would have lost (his divorce and remarriage would have been a major issue), and probably used it as a springboard for the 1968 nomination and election, again shutting out George Romney.
 
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Realpolitik

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(I didn't intend to leave out a reply to David T, but I burned myself out typing)




Hindsight is 20/20. We have hindsight, and we know how things did turn out and we know the factors in play, and we can say the Democrats are most likely to win 1964 regardless of any other factors. However, that hindsight is not something Johnson has.
It seems every president, including those who won in landslides, were worried about their chances for reelection and not sure if they would be reelected. That's been the case with presidents from Lincoln to (famously) Nixon, even though history shows they were comfortably reelected.

We have the narrative that Johnson has inherited the White House from Kennedy, and Johnson will continue what Kennedy began before being sadly murdered and honor his legacy. But we could have had the narrative that Johnson is not John F. Kennedy, that he looks to Americans like a Southern conservative ticket balancer who may be open to carrying through what Kennedy wanted, and he has not legitimately attained the presidency. It could be a narrative that 1964 would have been a clincher for John Kennedy, but now its an open question to who will succeed him. And regardless of the realities of that narrative, that could have been something playing in Lyndon Johnson's head.

Bear in mind as well, we're opening up the possibility of different things happening after Kennedy's assassination. What Johnson does is make sure he legitimizes himself as Kennedy's successor to the American public, and shows that he's a Liberal who will carry out the domestic agenda, including Kennedy's Civil Rights bill. He does that, meaning he doesn't have to run with Robert Kennedy - something he also does not want to do also because he does not want it to look like he cannot win the presidency on his own, nor does he want to live in the shadow of Kennedy (despite him campaigning heavily on Kennedy's image). Imagine, though, if things falter, such as if Civil Rights legislation doesn't pass before the election.
The Republican nomination of Barry Goldwater is another component. Goldwater does not have a snowball's chance in hell, he's alienated the Republican moderates and the rest of the Rockefeller wing, he's not going to win many others over, and he only won the nomination because of a Conservative zealotry and insurgency in the Republican party. And he's the opposite and the opponent of the Kennedy/Johnson policies. There's no concern about Goldwater winning, and Johnson can really take command of that election, and he can do as he pleases. A moderate Republican is a whole other entity. George Romney looked like a legitimate threat to Kennedy, and I imagine he would look the same to Lyndon Johnson. I imagine Johnson may fear he'd capture voters if Johnson did not prove his legitimacy to the voting public, that he'd get voters who liked Kennedy but did not necessarily like Johnson, that he'd get voters in the North as LBJ was a Texan, etc.

And that's where the hindsight issue comes in. We know Johnson would have won 1964 regardless of what he did. Johnson doesn't know that. He may know that against a Barry Goldwater, but he wouldn't against Rockefeller, Romney, Scranton, etc. So that, plus the possibility for him to not do as well as he did in the OTL leading up to the election, is why he may feel compelled to run with Robert Kennedy. And we do know he thought about it, even though he thought of it as something he didn't want to do but may have had to do.

It doesn't matter. The bad blood between Johnson and RFK was simply too great to be overcome. Another problem is that I doubt that RFK would want to be VP to Johnson-he only kept hawing about it because he wanted to, you guessed it, stir Johnson. There is nothing I have seen in reading about both men and their relationship that would make me think they would be willing to actually do this. They weren't always cool political calculators-for all their brilliance, like everybody else, they had their irrationalities and their limits. When push comes to shove, you can't negotiate or work with that kind of hatred. They would support each other in other campaigns if they could keep at a distance. But they couldn't work together, and I think both of them knew it.

I do kind of want to believe you, actually. These two would have made a very formidable combination, and I'm confident that they could have done a lot of good domestically. But I just, in all honesty, can't. An LBJ-RFK administration would go supernova before long if it happened. He'll find somebody else, anybody else, and make sure that he is absolutely loyal. Johnson's first concern is loyalty, given his situation, and the fact that he is surrounded by ex-Kennedy men, and RFK would be the antithesis of this.
 
I'm fully aware of the hatred, but this could be an extraordinary circumstance. I do think Johnson would be very afraid he'd lose, and I think Robert Kennedy would have desired the vice presidency not for Johnson but to keep the White House John Kennedy's - much as that is going to fail when Johnson takes over and makes it all his.
And I disagree in that I don't think it'd be a formidable combination. Johnson wouldn't see him as anything more than a way to win an election, and expendable thereafter. I think Johnson would push Robert Kennedy out of the picture, avoid working with him, send him off to various places, and shut him down and cut him off and make his vice presidency miserable; miserable not necessarily for any actual torment or harassment, which Johnson could have inflicted if he so chose, but by being made to do nothing. I think Robert Kennedy would chafe under Johnson and plot how to take back the White House in 1968, and very potentially resign from a very miserable vice presidency shortly after 1964.

It's not a thing destined to happen, but if you wanted to find a way to get Johnson to run with Robert Kennedy, this would be the scenario. Alternatively, I brought up in another thread that for similar reasons as the Robert Kennedy scenario, perhaps he could run with Sargent Shriver.
 
what was more an issue was the fact that he was born in Mexico to American parents, and whether or not he was therefore a natural born citizen. Even that, so far as I am aware, was not much of an issue.
However if he'd actually stood, mightn't it have become MORE of one?
 
Wallace runs as a third party. He takes much of the South. The Goldwater movement is more determined in 1968, particularly if Goldwater can run for reelection in 1964. there is a lawsuit challenging the Mexican born Romney's eligibility to be president. tThe Supreme Court rules 9-0 that Romney is a natural born citizen.
 
However if he'd actually stood, mightn't it have become MORE of one?

Wallace runs as a third party. He takes much of the South. The Goldwater movement is more determined in 1968, particularly if Goldwater can run for reelection in 1964. there is a lawsuit challenging the Mexican born Romney's eligibility to be president. tThe Supreme Court rules 9-0 that Romney is a natural born citizen.

The thing is with the elements of the OTL, it probably would not have been that major an issue. Inherently, there is no "Tea Party" equivalent in that period that had any strength. The type of Conservatism that makes up the modern Tea Party has always been there to varying degrees, but in the 1960s, the closest you have is the Right Wing fringe made up of groups like the John Birch Society (bearing in mind that the Right Wing is more of a fringe as is during this period). For reference, the Birchers were the guys that handed out the Dallas "Treason" flier concerning JFK, with language you'd hear leveled at Obama today. Those people would throw a fit and we'd have 1960s birthers, but they're really a fringe minority hence why Kennedy didn't have to deal with any Tea Partier equivalent. (And I also tried an AHC about JFK having Tea Partiers. It didn't last long).

That said, there is the possibility of Johnson going extremely dirty and making this a campaign issue, leaving it behind as a thing wider spread and more lingering than it should have been.
 
One of the things I'm surprised has not come up yet is what the electoral map would look like. Usually I'd suspect we'd have a picture posted by about this time. The problem, I think, is that running against a moderate Republican in 1964 is so much of a different world to the OTL 1964 election that there is no comparison or equivalent between the two. The OTL 1964 election was Johnson running unopposed; Goldwater could gain the protest votes of angry Southerners, alongside the votes of a Conservative super-minority, but he was no competition for Johnson. This would be a completely different animal; you cannot look at the OTL states and say "these few points could have gone here, and these few here" because the OTL map wouldn't have a bearing. It'd have to be constructing the ATL map really from the ground up, with trying to find a frame of reference.
 
On the topic of Goldwater's prospects for 1968 and his future prospects for the presidency for having avoided 1964, since Paul V McNutt brought it up, this scenario is certainly a way to see to that but I don't think it's destined. For having avoided the nomination and defeat of 1964, Goldwater is not necessarily next in line for the presidency from the GOP. The Republican party seems to have the habit of nominating the next-in-line Republican for president, but Nixon could also run in 1968 all the same, which would diminish Goldwater's chances. And it could be that in running for but dropping out or failing to secure the nomination for president, the energy behind Goldwater would have fizzled. Also bear in mind that while the Conservatives would have gotten their feet wet and gotten some political organizational training in trying to win Goldwater the nomination, they would not be doing that in the general election as you'd have Romney. A major component of the historical narrative on the Conservative movement in America is that campaigning for Goldwater was experience and training that planted the seeds of the growth and success of that movement throughout the 70s, culminating with the election of Ronald Reagan. So that would be different.

So that leads me to a second point I hadn't really thought about until writing this: this thread is not only about Romney winning the nomination in 1964. It's also about Goldwater not winning the nomination in 1964, with all the knock-on effects from that. You have a Conservative movement which did not succeed in 1964 in the insurgency of the GOP, which had some experience trying to get Goldwater the nomination but not the extra experience and visibility of trying to win him the general election, you do not have a Ronald Reagan who gives a speech and appears on the major political stage setting him up to become Goldwater's successor, you do not have Goldwater out of the senate for 4 (crucial) years of the 1960s which lent to Reagan taking the Conservatives over from him, etc. Certain things could happen for more passive reasons (Reagan could still take over the Conservatives, the Conservatives may be a major political force all the same), but it may be more muted compared to the OTL.
 
The thing is with the elements of the OTL, it probably would not have been that major an
Issue.

Romney's Mexican birth would not have been a major issue, but there would have been zealot who would have filed a law suit. OTL Romney planned to deal with the issue in his 1968 presidental campaign.
 
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