Graf Spee escapes - the triumph of Raeder

Gudestein

Bad news were received by Captain Langsdorff on December 11th 1939. The Arado reconnaisanc plane that had been so crucial in locating enemy ships had suffered major defects. The mechanics favored ditching it, but something turned in him at the thought. He urged the mechaniscs to work over night [=POD, in OTL it was ditched in the sea on the 11th]. The miracle did occurred. Part of the electrical system was fried, but replacements were found and the Arado flew again in the 12th. In a crucial sweep it identified a British freighter of 8000 tons to the north east. Langsdorff ordered pursuit and turned Graf Spee on an interception course north-north-east [compared to OTL she thereby eluded the three british cruisers and the battle of the River Plate]. The freighter was intercepted, surrendered and the fuel was plundered.
Langsdorff, relieved and exalted sensed to go home, the Altmarkt and admiral graf Spee headed North.
 

Deckhand

The British don't have radios, or search planes , or shipboard spotters. Clearly the Graf Spee can just sail home past Great Britain. Yay, another lead paint for everyone scenario.
 
NHBL

NHBL

Home--perhaps not...but...

The Graf Spee, IMVHO, is unlikely to reach home; there's too much out there hunting it. That doesn't mean that it can't pull off something impressive before getting sunk. Or--a way the ship could really make a difference...
Intern in Argentina, where the ship could be "sold" to the Argentines. Remember Goeben and Breslau being "sold" to the ottoman Empire?
 

Zheng He

NHBL said:
The Graf Spee, IMVHO, is unlikely to reach home; there's too much out there hunting it. That doesn't mean that it can't pull off something impressive before getting sunk. Or--a way the ship could really make a difference...
Intern in Argentina, where the ship could be "sold" to the Argentines. Remember Goeben and Breslau being "sold" to the ottoman Empire?
Click to expand...

A year ago a bunch of us had a lot of fun with this DBWI:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=298210&highlight=DBWI+Argentina
 

Gudestein

NHBL said:
The Graf Spee, IMVHO, is unlikely to reach home; there's too much out there hunting it. That doesn't mean that it can't pull off something impressive before getting sunk. Or--a way the ship could really make a difference...
Intern in Argentina, where the ship could be "sold" to the Argentines. Remember Goeben and Breslau being "sold" to the ottoman Empire?
Click to expand...

This is indeed a game of choice and the British have some options (seven small fleets assembled), but the South Atlantic is vast. Plotting a course to the freighter from its last known position would put it on a west-north-westerly course, so there is no good reason why the British should have a particular good reason to catch it heading north for home. Naturally, that's the southern Atlantic, there'll be more Royal Navy ships and freighters/convoys in the north Atlantic.
 

sonofpegasus

IIRC a very small proportion of the worlds merchant fleet was powere by oil, let alone marine diesal fuel in 1939. The chances of the GS finding such a ship and being able to transfer fuel at sea is IMHO aproaching ASB land. Now not having Exeter land an 8" shell on GS's fuel processing plant could change the outcome of the Battle of the River Plate if you want a viable pod.
 

Scotty

I've working from memory here but was'nt Harwood's force the weakest of the hunting groups (and also the furthest south)

By evading them and heading for home you might just be swapping one fight for something with sharper teeth
 

Byzer Bob

The Graf Spee is going to liberate Paraguay and Bolivia which will lead to the whole of South America joining the Axis. The cruise home will include dispatching Renown, Stasbourg and several cruisers. Then a stroke of luck for the plucky Graf Spee she puts into Cork and the marine detachment so impress the Irish that they form an ompah band which tours the USA cementing total isolation policies.
The Graf Spee latterly gains battle honours in Sealion, Pearl Harbour and The Mississippi Campaign. Today she is guard ship to The Ocean of Ash ( formally the Baltic Sea) which was reclaimed as sacred soil after the ash deposits discovered in the east were used to fill it in.
 
Cymraeg

Cymraeg

Scotty said:
I've working from memory here but was'nt Harwood's force the weakest of the hunting groups (and also the furthest south)

By evading them and heading for home you might just be swapping one fight for something with sharper teeth
Click to expand...

Oh, much sharper teeth. There were four carriers, a battlecruiser and two battleships, plus 16 cruisers, all looking for her. The further North she goes the more chances of being found and blown to pieces.
 

Carl Schwamberger

The sucessfull sorties of German battleships into the Atlantic were accompanied by a net work of support ships. Including the Graf Spee there were four attempts by six ships to enter the North Atlantic. Two of those four attempts resulted in a sunk battleship, one turned back, and three ships in two attempts sucessful. Even with oiler available odds are no better than 50/50 the Graf Spee could make it through to Germany.
 

Cryhavoc101

Gudestein said:
Bad news were received by Captain Langsdorff on December 11th 1939. The Arado reconnaisanc plane that had been so crucial in locating enemy ships had suffered major defects. The mechanics favored ditching it, but something turned in him at the thought. He urged the mechaniscs to work over night [=POD, in OTL it was ditched in the sea on the 11th]. The miracle did occurred. Part of the electrical system was fried, but replacements were found and the Arado flew again in the 12th. In a crucial sweep it identified a British freighter of 8000 tons to the north east. Langsdorff ordered pursuit and turned Graf Spee on an interception course north-north-east [compared to OTL she thereby eluded the three british cruisers and the battle of the River Plate]. The freighter was intercepted, surrendered and the fuel was plundered.
Langsdorff, relieved and exalted sensed to go home, the Altmarkt and admiral graf Spee headed North.
Click to expand...

The only 'Victory' here as far as the Germans are concerned is if the Graf Spee remains in the Atlantic sinking merchant shipping.

By returning home she is then effectively blockaded and that is a 'victory' for the Allies (she is not harrassing supply lines).
 

Archibald

Banned
Byzer Bob said:
The Graf Spee is going to liberate Paraguay and Bolivia which will lead to the whole of South America joining the Axis. The cruise home will include dispatching Renown, Stasbourg and several cruisers. Then a stroke of luck for the plucky Graf Spee she puts into Cork and the marine detachment so impress the Irish that they form an ompah band which tours the USA cementing total isolation policies.
The Graf Spee latterly gains battle honours in Sealion, Pearl Harbour and The Mississippi Campaign. Today she is guard ship to The Ocean of Ash ( formally the Baltic Sea) which was reclaimed as sacred soil after the ash deposits discovered in the east were used to fill it in.
Click to expand...

WTF ??!!!!!!!!
 

Byzer Bob

Archibald said:
WTF ??!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Just extrapolation from similar threads ....... perhaps the biggest smiley in the universe was also required a mixture of :p :rolleyes: :eek: might suffice
Also these Nazi wank threads hardly ever pay more than the faintest bit of lip service to the atrocities that their timelines would add to, otl was horrific enough without giving the Third Reich extra time to run the death camps etc etc etc.
 
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Gudestein

Byzer Bob said:
Just extrapolation from similar threads ....... perhaps the biggest smiley in the universe was also required a mixture of :p :rolleyes: :eek: might suffice
Also these Nazi wank threads hardly ever pay more than the faintest bit of lip service to the atrocities that their timelines would add to, otl was horrific enough without giving the Third Reich extra time to run the death camps etc etc etc.
Click to expand...

Take it easy folks, until now nothing out of the ordinary has occurred.
Regarding escaping further, Graf Spee had a supply ship that made it to Norway (the Altmarkt). I'll guess the 50/50 remark is reasonable
Graf Spee is not going to conquer Paraguay, but she might elude the hunting teams in the south atlantic.
Regarding the freighter carrying oil. Well IOTL she boarded a tanker so.. Stranger things have happened. Furthermore, I don't think that between Graf Spee and the Altmarkt, that she actually lacked oil to get back. Lets leave it at that and see what happens
 
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