AHC: World War II Stalemate

In this challenge, your goal is to successfully detail a Second World War in which the Axis and the Allied Powers stalemated and then ended the war. Italy may or may not survive, it's up to you, but Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany have to exit the war as great powers, alongside the United States, the British Empire, and the Soviet Union.

An additional requirement is that the Holocaust gets stopped prematurely due to reasons created by you (I'd advise a Wehrmacht coup d'état), and while the Nazis can remain segregationist, the whole "racial superiority" and other insane measures adopted by Hitler must be inexistent by the end of the war (meaning they only get to be normal fascists like Italy was).
 
To get that result would require different leadership all round I think. No demand for unconditional surrender obviously and some restraint shown by the axis in their treatment of prisoners and people in conquered territories. The allies would have to suffer a very, very demoralising series of defeats beyond what happened in the first couple of years of the war. Maybe Churchill is forced to step down in 1941 after a couple of disasters with his fingerprints on them, Roosevelt isn't elected, no lend lease, Soviet Union is stalemated on the Eastern front and positions become hopelessly entrenched, Stalin is ousted, peace in China before 1941 etc, etc....a lot of things would have to change.
 

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Have FDR die in the 1933 assassination attempt and the leadership of the US be more isolationist in 1940-41; the UK is pretty broke then in 1941 with no LL, still able to fight, but unable to take the offensive and keeping the blockade as Germany invades the USSR. The US maintains Cash and Carry as the fight goes on and probably ends in stalemate some time in 1944-45 after enormous casualties. An uneasy peace reigns over Europe. Japan doesn't go to war perhaps due to greater isolationism of the US preventing as confrontational of sanctions.
 
As stated above the easiest way to do this is eliminate FDR. Maybe have him not run in 1940 following the tradition of only 2 terms per president or have him die of an earlier illness.

If historic events then proceed rather similar to our timeline with no US entry and probably no attack on pearl harbor you'll have a stalemate in North Africa and a stalemate on the Eastern front by 42-3.

Eventually something will have to give. I imagine England will break first, there is only so long the English people are going to endure bombings with nothing to show for it. Peace feelers will be sent out for a peace with honor. England isn't going to surrender they just want to stop fighting.

What this peace will look like can go 1 of 2 ways: Either back to a status quo pre war. England withdraws to its borders, gives back Italian East Africa and any gains it made in North Africa, though in this situation where they are giving back land, I would assume England is losing in North Africa and the Germans and Italians are somewhere in Egypt. The English would rather hold on to Egypt than Ethiopia.

Or, current borders stand. This is more likely in the scenario where England made significant gains in Libya but just doesn't have the will to fight anymore. Mussolini will rage, but Hitler is going to call the shots here. Mussolini will probably be placated by extra land in Yugoslavia or being allowed to take Tunisia, Corsica and maybe parts of Vichy France. No one is going to stand up for Vichy and they'll be forced to go along.



Now, if the OP requires there be Japanese and US intervention what we can have is the following:

1. Have Stalingrad fall. Stalin gets a major hit to his prestige, but the Germans don't really gain much. The city is in ruins and rather useless to them and the offensive bogs down somewhere east of the city. Germany has more troops and higher morale, but still not enough to crush the Russians whereas the Russians have lost a major transit hub and several factories. The Soviet Union is weakened but not out of the fight.

2. North African campaign goes as it did in OTL. But, this time Germany manages to evacuate more troops out of North Africa into Italy.

3. Now, we need to find a reason for the invasion of Italy not to happen to infuriate Stalin. There are several ways this can be done:

a. The Americans force the British's hand and declares they want to only attack France, no distractions. British are forced to accept but work to delay the invasion an extra year and not opening another front.

b. Similar to above. But, this time they come to the conclusion together that Italy is not a threat and will be a waste of resources and will just result in bogged down Alpine fighting. Maybe there is an invasion of Sardinia to use a spring board for Southern France. No D-Day until 44.

c. The Western Allies agree that Stalin is going to be a future threat and should come out of this war as weak as possible. This can either be done by listening to elements within the government that were already extremely anti communist or the allies discover just how heavily entrenched Soviet spy rings are in the United States and Britain. Let the Soviets bleed themselves white against the Germans.

4. Throughout 43 and into 44 Stalin is furious. His soldiers are being killed by the hundreds of thousands while America and Britain just sit and prepare for an "upcoming invasion." The Germans are pushed backed and Stalingrad is reclaimed, but he is facing hundreds of thousands of additional German soldiers. He has reclaimed much of his land, but doesn't think his forces can push on much further and sends out feelers to Hitler.

5. Hitler at first is adamant that nothing short of total victory will be accepted, but his generals as well as members of his inner circle(including Speer, Himmler and Goebbels) see that the war is going to leave Germany in ruins if they continue. After several weeks of debate they manage to convince Hitler to accept a Brest-Litvosk type peace. They call it a temporary cease fire "Let us breath, establish infrastructure, rebuild our forces and we can resume the war in a few years after we get the United States and Britain out."

6. In early 1944, peace is called on the Eastern front. Germany and its allies consolidate their gains as dozens of divisions race west to shore up the defenses in France. Britain and the United States both realize their assessments for troop numbers in the west now are completely useless and that the invasion is in jeopardy. They gambled that Stalin would fight to the last man and they gambled wrong.

7. Peace envoys are sent to Germany to discuss a treaty. This may result in Germany leaving France and the low countries while keeping Denmark and Norway(I think the Germans will insist on having some atlantic ports). The Free French government won't return, but Vichy will now control all of France. Italy will lose its colonies and Mussolini's power will be greatly diminished.

As for Japan: I really can't fathom a way Japan survive if Pearl Harbor takes place the way it does. Perhaps if the Japanese actually declare war prior to the attack and suffer a major defeat at Pearl Harbor there may be room for a negotiated settlement. Or, if the attack on Pearl Harbor never takes place and they commit to a more limited war by just attacking the Philippines. The United States will retake the Philippines, probably take some other Japanese held islands and then call it quits.
 

CalBear

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Short of an asteroid impact, Yellowstone Megavolcanic eruption, or actual Alien invasion this isn't possible.

Japan was dead on arrival. Tokyo lost the war at 07:56 Hawaiian time on 12/7/41. After that everything else was details.
 
Short of an asteroid impact, Yellowstone Megavolcanic eruption, or actual Alien invasion this isn't possible.

Japan was dead on arrival. Tokyo lost the war at 07:56 Hawaiian time on 12/7/41. After that everything else was details.

Yep, Japan was never gonna stalemate with he USA. She was dead the moment she attacked Pearl, it just took four years for the bullet to hit.
 
Well, it's not guaranteed that Japan invades the Philippines or attacks Pearl Harbor in this AHC. Could they hope to limit themselves to Malaya and the DEI and present the Western Powers with a fait accompli?
 
Short of an asteroid impact, Yellowstone Megavolcanic eruption, or actual Alien invasion this isn't possible.

Japan was dead on arrival. Tokyo lost the war at 07:56 Hawaiian time on 12/7/41. After that everything else was details.

I never said Japan had to attack Pearl Harbour.
 
I never said Japan had to attack Pearl Harbour.

No but they don't need to, nations tend to follow the same foreign policy barring all but the most extreme changes in government. America is not going to give up the British Empire as a market as well as China. It is conceivable that the US might, under certain isolationist leadership, just about to stay out if Britain looks like scoring a draw. They will not let it go down though as they have already experienced what the loss of foreign markets can do to their economy, it was called the Great Depression and without the Victory Program they are going to still be in the long tail of that with no clear way out.

Without Japanese overreach however American non-intervention is within the realms of plausibility even if only just. Britain would have struggled to maintain an all out war effort unaided and so would the USSR. Both could still exert some pressure.

Hitler is problematic...then again an uneasy peace does not preclude what he really wants...the next war.
 
Hitler dies in car crash in France.The new leader of Germany decides not to attack the Soviet Union. In June of 1941 Soviet Union and japan Smelling blood in the water Decide to attack The british . The soviets take Persia and make it up the Indus River and Japanese make it up to Burma.Rommel wins at El Alamein and takes Egypt. Britain way out gun and out manned offer terms.
 

CalBear

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I never said Japan had to attack Pearl Harbour.

No but you did call of Japan to be Great Power. Only way that happens is that they manage to survive. Since they can't come out a Great Power without defeating China (which was simply beyond their capability with the technology of the era), fighting the UK to a standstill and somehow avoid engaging the U.S., despite the fact that the U.S. was impossible to avoid, I will stand with the megavolcano.

I will even go further. If the UK is a Great Power at the end of WW II Japan can not be. There is no way a Great Power can allow Singapore/Malaya/Burma to go unavenged.
 
Hitler dies in car crash in France.The new leader of Germany decides not to attack the Soviet Union. In June of 1941 Soviet Union and japan Smelling blood in the water Decide to attack The british . The soviets take Persia and make it up the Indus River and Japanese make it up to Burma.Rommel wins at El Alamein and takes Egypt. Britain way out gun and out manned offer terms.

:eek:
How did you come up with this?

Rommel couldn't win at El Alamein, his forces were near exhaustion and were running short of supplies facing secure flanks and troops. THERE were around 200,000 men faced relativity only 100,000.

The British also had a number of artillery witch had the ideal plan of destroying the Axis.
 
:eek:
How did you come up with this?

Rommel couldn't win at El Alamein, his forces were near exhaustion and were running short of supplies facing secure flanks and troops. THERE were around 200,000 men faced relativity only 100,000.

The British also had a number of artillery witch had the ideal plan of destroying the Axis.

I forget about the number difference and exhaustion part :p:p:p
 
No but you did call of Japan to be Great Power. Only way that happens is that they manage to survive. Since they can't come out a Great Power without defeating China (which was simply beyond their capability with the technology of the era), fighting the UK to a standstill and somehow avoid engaging the U.S., despite the fact that the U.S. was impossible to avoid, I will stand with the megavolcano.

I will even go further. If the UK is a Great Power at the end of WW II Japan can not be. There is no way a Great Power can allow Singapore/Malaya/Burma to go unavenged.

As far as I know, Imperial Japan already was a great power by 1938 (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power scroll to the great powers by date section).

I reckon it would be in the realms of plausibility, if only just, that F.D.R. gets assassinated and what would follow would instead opt to stick to correctly implementing his vision for economic revival and stay out of a second great European war. Thus, I believe that without F.D.R., no Lend-Lease Act would ever occur. The British Empire would thus be significantly weaker, and would fall prey easier to Japanese invasions of Malaya and even Burma (though I doubt that a less-motivated Japan would sacrifice the front in China to meddle with India).

Once Britain, the Soviets, and the Nazis would stalemate in Europe, Hitler gets killed, and a more rational leadership proposes peace to the British Empire, they'd be forced to accept. In the peace treaty, it could be established that London gets Singapore and Malaya back in exchange for some South Pacific territories and the recognition of Japanese hegemony in Indonesia, Indochina, as well as whatever they could grab in China.
 
WW2 Stalemate?

Easy - make a POD where France does not collapse in May 1940 - either through the UK/French forces being better or larger or both etc

WW1 style Stalemate on the Western Front then results through 1941 etc

Italy stays neutral and with both the British and French Empires still active there is no grabbing of French indo-china by the Japanese

With No Med / North Africa / East Africa / Middle east uprisings and fighting the Vichi French etc - there is a bucket load of naval, Air and Land forces available to reinforce the Far East + Shorter transport distances (via med and Suez directly to France) frees up masses of Cargo transport capacity and escort ships

Certainly there would be no 3rd tier forces and commanders being sent to Malaya etc and a great deal more in the way of Fleet assets would be available.

No Indo chine no increased sanctions - its even possible that Japan comes to an accommodation with the US over China etc

Meanwhile Stalin continues to supply the Germans with POL and Wheat etc as he sees continued strife in Europe as being in his/Russias best interests - while gobbing up parts of eastern Europe and further bullying Finland.

At some point the failure of the War in France and the Lowlands as well as an increasingly unfavourable trade deal with the Soviet Union results in a Army led revolt against the National Socialists in 1942 which sees Hitler and his ilk removed from power.

A hard peace follows - limited somewhat by the west's concern over Stalin's actions in Eastern Europe and the perceived need of maintianing a strong German Army to oppose him

After that? A long Cold war with the internal Polish Border being the new Iron Curtain or a conventional WW3 in 1944 between the West/US backed Germany and Russia?

IMO everything hinges on France
 
If France doesn't collapse in May 1940, Germany will. A failed Sickle Cut almost certainly ends with Hitler hanging by a rope and whoever's running things in Berlin desperately trying to seek terms that won't be as bad as Versailles.
 
The stipulation that Japan must survive as a Great Power makes this impossible.

Japan needs to win in China to be a Great Power, that in itself is dubious. What makes it impossible, is winning in China will muscle the USA out of extensive business interests, at the hands of a vastly weaker power that Americans are also very racist towards. There is no plausible level of isolationism within the USA that won't ratchet up the economic warfare on Japan over time. The dates in the Pacific War will be different, but the song will be the same.

Britain is also more than capable of defeating Japan alone, if it is unengaged in Europe.

CalBear's Anglo-American Nazi War (deliberately) fudges WW2 itself to get the closest possible to your scenario. Nazi Germany wins in Russia, and the Western Allies slide into an uneasy truce due to the difficulty in invading an entire continent without aid. Over time, Nazi Germany cannot compete due to horrible economic mismanagement, and a huge gap in industrial capability.
 
You could achieve some sort of uneasy peace where the Nazis win in Russia and Europe as a whole, that may or may not eventually develop into a Cold War depending on how things go; but your scenario is pretty impossible with the Japan requirement attached to it.
 
As far as I know, Imperial Japan already was a great power by 1938 (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_power scroll to the great powers by date section).

I reckon it would be in the realms of plausibility, if only just, that F.D.R. gets assassinated and what would follow would instead opt to stick to correctly implementing his vision for economic revival and stay out of a second great European war. Thus, I believe that without F.D.R., no Lend-Lease Act would ever occur. The British Empire would thus be significantly weaker, and would fall prey easier to Japanese invasions of Malaya and even Burma (though I doubt that a less-motivated Japan would sacrifice the front in China to meddle with India).

Once Britain, the Soviets, and the Nazis would stalemate in Europe, Hitler gets killed, and a more rational leadership proposes peace to the British Empire, they'd be forced to accept. In the peace treaty, it could be established that London gets Singapore and Malaya back in exchange for some South Pacific territories and the recognition of Japanese hegemony in Indonesia, Indochina, as well as whatever they could grab in China.

The wikipedia page is irrelevant. What is relevant, however, is the historical context.
Japan was militarist from the beginning. They decided to go somewhere else, i.e. Hawaii and Southeast Asia, when the war in China became a stalemate.
It was already established by Calbear that Japan was never going to succeed anyway.
Japan's militarism stemmed from its desire to take over China - it was always China. It is shown from the 21 Demands back in 1915 - not that this was before Japanese militarism had truly risen up after the Great Depression.
The wish was always there and all Japan needed was a little push - inevitable by any accounts, TTL or otherwise.
And this wish reared its ugly head when Japan annexed Korea. Korea was, essentially, the root of all of Japan's problems.
Want Japan to survive as an Empire? They aren't going to, not if Korea becomes annexed.
 
Germany is simple- just make a POD so that Hitler isn't racist. No holocaust, and no mistreatment of slavs means he would gain significant local support against Stalin crucial for victory in the east. Now he brokers a very unrealistic peace with the soviets (in OTL its all or nothing) and regardless of how poorly Italy does, Germany can use that extra manpower to become impenetrable.

The only way Japan can survive is if the USA doesn't exist, really. Even if they'd won Midway, the USN would have those carriers replaced in no time. Japan was just bleeding themselves to death in the Pacific.
 
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