The Nazis in Palestine

Playing the game HoI2 the Desert Fox scenario, the North African campaign as Rommel I capture Egypt, Sinai and Palestine by October 1941, and the game ended as strategic victory. What would that meant in real life?
 
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They would have to push and push all the way to India for them to have a victory there. The British are not giving up after loosing Palestine. Forces will be coming in from the Indian Ocean and land in Iraq, reinforcing them.

Realistic the Germans can't have gone all that far, with the British taking out the Italian fleet in the meds bit by bit, Logistics would soon stop and the Afrika Korps runs out of fuel and ammo. Nothing to gain in Palestine anyway, only Iraq has some good oil fields to use(in game anyway, although Syria had some as well) so it would be a waste of material and manpower to even go that far. Blocking the Suez canal could have been done without going all the way for Palestine.

It would keep the English busy, but not help German win the war against them.

Barbarossa would have launched by October, making Africa a less and less priority anyway. Perhaps they would leave the rest to the Italians, who would loose big time.
 
Playing the game HoI2 the Desert Fox scenario, the North African campaign as Rommel I capture Egypt, Sinai and Palestine by October 1941, and the game ended as strategic victory. What would that meant in real life?
It would mean that ASBs provided him with the fuel and other supplies needed to do it.
 

Paul MacQ

Monthly Donor
German scientists have perfected synthetic fuels.

They can produce more synthetic fuels all they want they do not make synthetic "Heavy Furnace oil" needed for ships.

Though there failing to make more "synthetic fuels" can be laid and Goring's feet.
 
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Deleted member 9338

After the war, when Hitler is defeated, the Zionist get not only the original partition, but the entire land of Palestine, from the Jordan to the sea. This is for payment for the Haganah holding down tremendous German and Italian assets in the area.

This is based on a few facts and supazitions. First off that the Arabs line up with the Nazis. This is not to far from the mark as the early Arab leadership is sitting in Berlin at this time in the form of Haj Amin al-Husseini.

The second point is that WWII was going to be won by the allies even if Rommel took Egypt. Britain and the US could stop most sea traffic in the Med.

Third, Haganah and British forces in Palestine were planning on such a nightmare. There were supplies in place and they would have made a mess of the German logistics.

Losses would be high and that and the support given would allow for the state of Israel to exist much sooner than 1948 and without the Civil War.
 
IIRC, there was actually an attempted alliance between the Germans and the more extreme Zionist groups in British-occupied Palestine. It was the most bizarre case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend ever, rivalled only by the West jumping into bed with the Khmer Rouge.
 
I don't think the Arabs were a real concern for the Nazis, sort of like how Yugoslavia was a sideshow/not in the way of Lebensraum. They'd find the most brutal collaborators to arm and commit all sorts of horrors against the Jewish community, other than that...

Of course the Nazis *getting* to Palestine requires some serious butterflies anyway.
 
IIRC, there was actually an attempted alliance between the Germans and the more extreme Zionist groups in British-occupied Palestine. It was the most bizarre case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend ever, rivalled only by the West jumping into bed with the Khmer Rouge.

Indeed. The Jewish group Lehi offered to ally with Hitler, and conquer the Middle East for the Germans. One of its top leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, later became elected to become Israeli PM. Other than a brief protest by concentration camp survivors, this fact doesn't seem to have come up much in Jewish politics.

Anyways, Rommel likely wouldn't do anything significant to the Jewish population; if that infuriates Hitler sufficiently however, I can see him getting replaced, national hero or not.
 
Indeed. The Jewish group Lehi offered to ally with Hitler, and conquer the Middle East for the Germans. One of its top leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, later became elected to become Israeli PM. Other than a brief protest by concentration camp survivors, this fact doesn't seem to have come up much in Jewish politics.

Anyways, Rommel likely wouldn't do anything significant to the Jewish population; if that infuriates Hitler sufficiently however, I can see him getting replaced, national hero or not.

There were a great number of Jews in North Africa at the time Rommel was there. We are talking low hundreds of thousands in Axis and French hands there. There aren't today as they were driven out by mainly the Arabs after the creation of Israel. There were about a half a million Jews in Palestine then.

The SS still OTL waited until Rommel was well out of countries before sending thugs down to work people to death and steal from local Jews with the help of locals in places like Tunisia.

In a situation stated where Rommel is able to fling his tanks right up though Egypt and into the Middle East it means a few things. One that Hitler did a lot better on the Eastern front so he has alot more resources to spare for Egypt. Perhaps Italy took Malta as well and Frano joined the war and took the Rock.

It also means the British Army is in disarray perhaps because of a Disaster at Dunkirk and likely the U.S. is still not in the war, heck you can add to that more uprisings in the Middle East and perhaps the Turks entering the war.

Basically what you have is a prescription for Hitler winning the war or at least coming out of it with a very favorable peace.

Hitler is going to wait until the Panzer Army Africa is busy fighting in Iraq/Iran before sending the Grand Mufti and a bunch of SS goons with him to Palestine.
 
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IIRC, there was actually an attempted alliance between the Germans and the more extreme Zionist groups in British-occupied Palestine. It was the most bizarre case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend ever, rivalled only by the West jumping into bed with the Khmer Rouge.

To be fair, the Khmer Rouge was never a major threat to the west, just to its own people and Vietnam. So, when Vietnam essentially took over Cambodia, supporting the Khmer Rouge was essentially a continuation of Western policy in containing Vietnam.

Further, being that the West never seemed to car about how many Southeast Asians died in the game of Communist Domino Rally, I dont see the move as confusing even from a humanitarian perspective.

As for Zionist-Nazi links, I have done no research on it, though the fact that the Nazis wanted the death of all Jews would make such a collaboration the craziest in history until Nelly and Tim McGraw collaborated in Over and Over. To be honest, it sounds like modern anti-zionist propaganda but I hear there is some truth to it.
 
To be fair, the Khmer Rouge was never a major threat to the west, just to its own people and Vietnam. So, when Vietnam essentially took over Cambodia, supporting the Khmer Rouge was essentially a continuation of Western policy in containing Vietnam.

Further, being that the West never seemed to car about how many Southeast Asians died in the game of Communist Domino Rally, I dont see the move as confusing even from a humanitarian perspective.

As for Zionist-Nazi links, I have done no research on it, though the fact that the Nazis wanted the death of all Jews would make such a collaboration the craziest in history until Nelly and Tim McGraw collaborated in Over and Over. To be honest, it sounds like modern anti-zionist propaganda but I hear there is some truth to it.

It is mentioned by some quite respected Israeli historians (though not of the sort Likud likes). To be fair, Lehi was pretty fringe and by no means representative of the general views of the Zionist leadership (which, by the way, highlights the double standards when Haj Amin's enlistment with Hitler is cited as proof that Palestinians were all potential Nazi collaborators, which was not so clearly the case).
At the time, it wasn't entirely clear that most of the whole point of Nazism was having literally all Jews dead, although there was hardly want of hints for intent observers. Lehi was operating under the assumption that the Nazis would have been fine with Jews being faraway outside Europe. This was almost certainly mistaken, at least as far as Nazi views were around 1941.

As an aside, I don't any evidence whatsoever pointing to Nazis generally considering the Arabs "Aryans" (and I'd be glad to have some serious source if there are some). I am fairly sure they could have, if needed, come out with some convoluted reasoning holding that Palestinians could have some Aryan blood as descendants of the historical Philistines (which were, indeed most likely at least partly Indo-European speaking, quite possibly closely related to Achaeans; not that really mattered to a NAzi POV) as they did similar shit for Croats. But to my knowledge, the Arabs were considered Semites by the Nazis as by much of everyone else; they weren't subjects of specifically targeted Nazi hatred, but there's a historical reason why hate against Jews is called anti-Semitism. (Not that the Nazis wouldn't have accepted or sought some local collaborator if they needed that; after all, deciding who was a Semite was up to the SS).
 
To be fair, the Khmer Rouge was never a major threat to the west, just to its own people and Vietnam. So, when Vietnam essentially took over Cambodia, supporting the Khmer Rouge was essentially a continuation of Western policy in containing Vietnam.

Further, being that the West never seemed to car about how many Southeast Asians died in the game of Communist Domino Rally, I dont see the move as confusing even from a humanitarian perspective.

As for Zionist-Nazi links, I have done no research on it, though the fact that the Nazis wanted the death of all Jews would make such a collaboration the craziest in history until Nelly and Tim McGraw collaborated in Over and Over. To be honest, it sounds like modern anti-zionist propaganda but I hear there is some truth to it.

There is truth to it and you have to understand these talks happened in 1940 well before the official or even unofficial German policy toward the Jews turned to genocide. The Jews that engaged in them in the talks knew the German policy was deportation of the Jews in Europe to somewhere outside Europe and their view was they were fine with that as long as it was to Palestine.
 

Realpolitik

Banned
It is mentioned by some quite respected Israeli historians (though not of the sort Likud likes). To be fair, Lehi was pretty fringe and by no means representative of the general views of the Zionist leadership (which, by the way, highlights the double standards when Haj Amin's enlistment with Hitler is cited as proof that Palestinians were all potential Nazi collaborators, which was not so clearly the case).
At the time, it wasn't entirely clear that most of the whole point of Nazism was having literally all Jews dead, although there was hardly want of hints for intent observers. Lehi was operating under the assumption that the Nazis would have been fine with Jews being faraway outside Europe. This was almost certainly mistaken, at least as far as Nazi views were around 1941.

As an aside, I don't any evidence whatsoever pointing to Nazis generally considering the Arabs "Aryans" (and I'd be glad to have some serious source if there are some). I am fairly sure they could have, if needed, come out with some convoluted reasoning holding that Palestinians could have some Aryan blood as descendants of the historical Philistines (which were, indeed most likely at least partly Indo-European speaking, quite possibly closely related to Achaeans; not that really mattered to a NAzi POV) as they did similar shit for Croats. But to my knowledge, the Arabs were considered Semites by the Nazis as by much of everyone else; they weren't subjects of specifically targeted Nazi hatred, but there's a historical reason why hate against Jews is called anti-Semitism. (Not that the Nazis wouldn't have accepted or sought some local collaborator if they needed that; after all, deciding who was a Semite was up to the SS).


Hitler, according to Speer, thought the Arabs "racially inferior" (this was when he was talking about if Martel hadn't won at Poitiers and how Islamized Germans could conquer everything), but this didn't stop him from talking to the Grand Mufti or Ibn Saud and signing orders to mess with the British in Iraq(Directive 30). I strongly doubt the Germans are going to be going "Slav/Gypsy/Jew" on the Arabs, at least during the war.
 
They would have to push and push all the way to India for them to have a victory there. The British are not giving up after loosing Palestine. Forces will be coming in from the Indian Ocean and land in Iraq, reinforcing them.

Realistic the Germans can't have gone all that far, with the British taking out the Italian fleet in the meds bit by bit, Logistics would soon stop and the Afrika Korps runs out of fuel and ammo. Nothing to gain in Palestine anyway, only Iraq has some good oil fields to use(in game anyway, although Syria had some as well) so it would be a waste of material and manpower to even go that far. Blocking the Suez canal could have been done without going all the way for Palestine.

It would keep the English busy, but not help German win the war against them.

Barbarossa would have launched by October, making Africa a less and less priority anyway. Perhaps they would leave the rest to the Italians, who would loose big time.

Hitler might have allowed Mussolini control over the Levant, but in the German-Soviet Axis talks Stalin expressed an interest in Iraq and Iran. If the Nazis and the Soviets weren't yet at war, they soon would be, and Germany would probably have to extend the invasion to India to help block off Western aid to the Soviets.
 
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