WI: Italian/Japanese Heavy Bomber

Deleted member 1487

Neither had the capacity to make enough to matter. The P.108 would have been decent with DB605 engines, or even Jumo 211 engines.
 

Deleted member 1487

hasdrubal barca said:
Maybe Germany should just steal the P.108 for themselves them.
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The He177 was better and already in production, but the engine issue just couldn't be worked out in time to matter. They'd be better off just going for the He177B in 1937.
 

hasdrubal barca

wiking said:
Neither had the capacity to make enough to matter. The P.108 would have been decent with DB605 engines, or even Jumo 211 engines.
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In regard to production. The Italians are probably hopeless but the Japaneses did manage to crank out 10,000 bomber aircraft in OTL. If more efforts were put into the four engine, at the expense of these other bombers, could that have led to the desired result?

What number do you think would be enough to have an impact? Also would heavy bombers be more useful in China or the Pacific?
 

Deleted member 1487

hasdrubal barca said:
In regard to production. The Italians are probably hopeless but the Japaneses did manage to crank out 10,000 bomber aircraft in OTL. If more efforts were put into the four engine, at the expense of these other bombers, could that have led to the desired result?

What number do you think would be enough to have an impact? Also would heavy bombers be more useful in China or the Pacific?
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To use against what? The Chinese centers of production and supply were taken, Japan had fuel shortages, the US industry was out of range, using them in the Pacific had little use, and India was out of range. Japan had little use for them, Italy more so, but no ability to make them. It all comes down to Germany getting them when it matters, which is 1942. Before the route they chose wouldn't have been ready and by 1941 it wouldn't have mattered to the campaign being conducted; from 1942 on it would have been vital in the East to stopping the Soviets, which was also the point where fuel wasn't a crippling issue, though stocks were dangerously low after Barbarossa and prompted the Caucasus campaign. Its use at that point was the only time that mattered even if it bottomed out the fuel supply, but that is with hindsight. Really in 1942-43 it would have been vital, but delaying the inevitable given that the US was in the war. Now 1-on-1 against the Soviets its use from 1942 on would have been a war winner, but that was not the case IOTL.
 

hasdrubal barca

wiking said:
To use against what? The Chinese centers of production and supply were taken, Japan had fuel shortages, the US industry was out of range, using them in the Pacific had little use, and India was out of range.
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The Japanese wanted to bomb Chongqing into submission but didn't have an aircraft with the bomb capacity for it. I could see them used in a role supporting both the invasion of Sichuan and Operation Ichi-Go. Breaking China would really have changed the calculus, all those aircraft and at least some of the garrison troops could be freed up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Chongqing
 
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Just Leo

What capacity would a bomber need to bomb a city into submission? How many bombers? What is the protocol for cities submitting?
 

Deleted member 1487

Ultimately the Japanese were through because of the US actions against the Japanese Home Isles; the Soviets could have stayed out and the IJA have won in China, but ultimately it wouldn't have mattered, the US would have occupied the Home Islands and moved into mainland Asia and cut the IJA off from supply and had the Chinese guerrillas remaining fight them to the bitter end so long as they could get any supplies. All it does is delay the inevitable.
 

hasdrubal barca

Just Leo said:
What capacity would a bomber need to bomb a city into submission? How many bombers? What is the protocol for cities submitting?
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Basically what I meant by submitting is to get the Nationalists to come to peace terms or more likely get them to at least abandon their capital Chongqing. I was thinking like 1,000 bombers and fighter bombers with large numbers of incendiaries to create some sort of firestorm like conditions. The heavy bombers should have something around 7-8,000 pound bomb load to really get the job done.
 
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hasdrubal barca

wiking said:
Ultimately the Japanese were through because of the US actions against the Japanese Home Isles; the Soviets could have stayed out and the IJA have won in China, but ultimately it wouldn't have mattered, the US would have occupied the Home Islands and moved into mainland Asia and cut the IJA off from supply and had the Chinese guerrillas remaining fight them to the bitter end so long as they could get any supplies. All it does is delay the inevitable.
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The goal would be to prevent the occupation of the home islands from ever happening by pouring troops into defence of the pacific Islands. The Japanese literally had millions of troops garrisoning China if even a fraction of these could be broken free it could have a significant impact.

Now implying the US gets bogged down short of the home islands, I don't know how nukes would come into play exactly and whether Japan would still surrender.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
hasdrubal barca said:
Basically what I meant by submitting is to get the Nationalists to come to peace terms or more likely get them to at least abandon their capital Chongqing. I was thinking like 1,000 bombers and fighter bombers with large numbers of incendiaries to create some sort of firestorm like conditions. The heavy bombers should have something around 7-8,000 pound bomb load to really get the job done.
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It took Bomber Command four-five years of development and several hundred heavy bombers per op to intermittently firestorm German cities.
I really don't think Japan has the capability to do that.
 

hasdrubal barca

Saphroneth said:
It took Bomber Command four-five years of development and several hundred heavy bombers per op to intermittently firestorm German cities.
I really don't think Japan has the capability to do that.
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It doesn't have to be intentional. The Germans nearly managed to firestorm London a few times and weren't necessarily aiming for that effect. Anyhow it doesn't have to be firestorm I was just using that as an example, just enough bombing to make the Nationalists leave.
 

CarribeanViking

Large numbers of fires do not a firestorm make, until they join together to create a column of hot rising air that sucks cooler air in, and creates the man made typhoon that fans the flames into the full terrible thing.

You need a lot of kindling on the ground for it to reach that intensity, and I doubt London ever really came close- too high a proportion of brick and stone. Berlin certainly never did, despite Bomber Command's best attempts.

Japanese and Chinese cities were ripe targets, however.

In terms of the actual aircraft, what about the apparent proposed bomber version of the Kawanishi H8K? Their most successful four engined type already, with a reasonable bombload as was. Interesting potential as a very long range torpedo bomber as was.
 

hasdrubal barca

CarribeanViking said:
You need a lot of kindling on the ground for it to reach that intensity, and I doubt London ever really came close- too high a proportion of brick and stone. Berlin certainly never did, despite Bomber Command's best attempts.
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I found the qoute by Harris: "Only once, did a Luftwaffe raid ever approach fire-storm conditions: during an unusually heavy fire-raid on London, when the Thames was running a neap tide, the hoses of the London fire brigades had been unable to reach down to the river surface. So often the factor which converted an otherwise routine attack into a major catastrophe was just a freak of nature."

So only one time according to this, it shows that freak events can cause it too.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
hasdrubal barca said:
I found the qoute by Harris: "Only once, did a Luftwaffe raid ever approach fire-storm conditions: during an unusually heavy fire-raid on London, when the Thames was running a neap tide, the hoses of the London fire brigades had been unable to reach down to the river surface. So often the factor which converted an otherwise routine attack into a major catastrophe was just a freak of nature."

So only one time according to this, it shows that freak events can cause it too.
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So not "a few" times, just one time. And it still didn't actually tick over.
 

yulzari

Gibraltar, Malta and Alexandria would be potential targets for an effective Italian heavy bomber. However, I do not see the Italian airframe nor aero engine industries having the capacity to make these without damaging their OTL output.

I have always thought that the Alfa Romeo twin row 2 valve Pegasus type engine had potential though.
 
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