Realpolitik
Banned
This is my first before 1900 post. I once read that Catherine of Aragon had a lot of potential, but was born the wrong gender.
What if she were a boy?
What if she were a boy?
Catherine of Aragon born a boy
- Thread starter Realpolitik
- Start date
For starters, we won't have Habsburg Spain - Ferdinand and Isabella have a son who will inherit both Castile and Aragon, and if Catherine's OTL brother John survives to adulthood they'd have an heir and a spare situation, which would really help.
No Habsburg Spain ITTL, will thus also affect the Habsburgs. It won't be the OTL division, OTOH with such an early POD other things will change.
The only thing, what IMHO doesn't change, is the Habsburg goal to regain Hungary (& Croatia) and Bohemia for their dynasty; in fact that might be even more important ITTL.
However any younger son, as an archduke, is at least entitled to a share of the Habsburg Hereditary Lands. Perhaps when the Habsburg, like IOTL gain duchies, such as IOTL Württemberg and Milan, there might be a further arrangements (for instance as compromise candidate for Milan, but in exchange the main branch gets their hereditary share back).
Furthermore some of the economic problems, which occurred in Spain during this era, where disruptive, regardless of the dynastic politics, OTOH many were also national politics (interventions in Italy benefited Aragon); anyway drastically increasing the gold supply in a gold (or gold-silver) based economy is not without any economic effect.
Maybe Charles V marries Anna of Bohemia and Hungary and leaves Netherlands to Ferdinand.
No, won't happen. She's too Slavic for my tastes. I prefer Portuguese women
(Ironic because IRL my girlfriend is actually half-Russian )On a more serious note, I wonder who Henry VII will marry his oldest son Arthur to in this case. If butterflies cause Ferdinand and Isabella to have another daughter after Ferdinand VI* (what I will call male Catherine) it will probably be her to keep the Anglo-Spanish alliance. There's no French or Portuguese princess who is the right age.
Maybe someone at home in England then (a daughter of a noble)? I wonder if Arthur having a different wife will butterfly away his premature death causing him to be king instead of OTL Henry VIII...No, won't happen. She's too Slavic for my tastes. I prefer Portuguese women
On a more serious note, I wonder who Henry VII will marry his oldest son Arthur to in this case. If butterflies cause Ferdinand and Isabella to have another daughter after Ferdinand VI* (what I will call male Catherine) it will probably be her to keep the Anglo-Spanish alliance. There's no French or Portuguese princess who is the right age.
I think that Henry VII was quite concerned about marrying his children to royal houses, in order to get a better recognition of his new dynasty. So, maybe Elizabeth of Denmark? But probably it would make more sense to marry him to the widow of John, Prince of Asturias: Margaret of Austria.
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On a more serious note, I wonder who Henry VII will marry his oldest son Arthur to in this case. If butterflies cause Ferdinand and Isabella to have another daughter after Ferdinand VI* (what I will call male Catherine) it will probably be her to keep the Anglo-Spanish alliance. There's no French or Portuguese princess who is the right age.
There's always Maria of Aragon, the sibling before Catherine. In the OTL she was originally held as a spare and ended up marrying her sister Isabella's widower Manuel, King of Portugal. She was had much better luck with her pregnancies than Catherine and 8 of her 10 children made it to adulthood. If she and Arthur married I wonder if Arthur would leave surviving issue if he still died on schedule. There's the potential for major butterflies…. If that wasn't the case and Arthur died without impregnating Maria, I would think that Ferdinand and Isabella would have her married to Manuel rather than waiting for Prince Henry to grow up (the age between between him and Maria was more pronounced than Catherine and Henry). In that case they wouldn't have a spare daughter secure an alliance with Portugal.
As for male Catherine's marriage I would look at Margaret or Mary Tudor perhaps and maybe Catherine of York marrying James IV instead (OTL Henry VII considering marrying Elizabeth Woodville to James III and Catherine of York to one of the Scottish Princes). But if male Catherine was still a second son, I don't know if Henry VII would agree to his daughter marrying a second son (even of Ferdinand and Isabella) and his wife's sister becoming a Queen (even of a poor country like Scotland). I'd give Catherine of York a really, really outside shot of being married to male Catherine before he became the heir and maybe if Maria of Aragon wasn't betrothed to Prince Arthur. I wonder if Ferdinand would push for an Italian Princess or a Duke's daughter.
I can see such a match being a possibility, but I doubt Charles would give away his native Burgundian Netherlands.
That really depends, the POD is in 1485, before Charles V, Ferdinand, Anna and Louis II were even born.
Furthermore IOTL Maximilian had a previous succession treaty with Vladislaus II, when Vladislaus was still childless.
Another part of a 1485 POD can be that all the TTL Habsburg Lands first pass to Philip or that Maximilian also has children from another marriage (he was a widower since 1482).
The Scottish alliance was too important to allow Margaret to marry elsewhere.
Maybe male Catherine can wait for Mary Tudor comes of age, Charles Brandon can kiss that dukedom goodbye.
Maybe male Catherine can wait for Mary Tudor comes of age, Charles Brandon can kiss that dukedom goodbye.
Why? I'm not sure an English marriage was all important.
Assuming the male Catherine was the younger son of Ferdinand and Isabella, he would have been 12/13 at the time of his older brother's death.
There would have been intense pressure on the young boy to marry ASAP and start producing heirs. It made sense therefore that he marry someone slightly older, preferably someone who was proven capable of bearing children.
His sister-in-law the widowed Margaret of Austria was just 17. She remained in Spain for several years after being widowed and the stillbirth of Juan's child.
I think there would have been intense pressure for Margaret to marry her dead husband's younger brother.
I am pressure Isabella of Castille could have used her powerful sway to get any papal dispensation required.
But Henry Tudor would still want one of his children to wed an Iberian royalty, I think Maria of Aragon is pretty suitable for Arthur, even though she's older than him.
That may well be the case but its not up to Henry, its up to Ferdinand and Isabella.
A Portuguese marriage is more important for Spain than an English marriage.
I doubt they would sacrifice a new Portuguese alliance for an English one. Of course if their eldest daughter lives then a further Portuguese marriage is unnecessary and an English marriage for Maria becomes a more realistic possibility.
Maybe male Catherine can wait for Mary Tudor comes of age, Charles Brandon can kiss that dukedom goodbye.
Charles received his dukedom when Henry was trying to marry him off to Margaret of Savoy. He was Duke before he married (or thought to marry) Princess Mary IRL.
On topic, I don't see Ferdinand* waiting to marry Mary ITTL, but she could be a second wife if his first were to die prematurely.
But it was in the best interests of the Trastamara to make allies with countries who were traditional enemies with France. Ie to 'encircle France'. So alliances with HRE/Burgundy and England were important. With 3 daughters they could still plan to make alliances with Portugal, HRE, and England.
Of course the Portuguese alliance would be very important to them. And since there weren't any unmarried Portuguese Princesses the right age, one of their girls would need to marry Manuel, King of Portugal. I still think they would plan to marry their oldest daughter Isabella to him (since they were so close in age and Isabella was the senior heiress in case her brothers died).
I think the Tudors would set their sights on Maria if she was the youngest daughter in the family and there was only a 3 year age difference. I'm guessing that there would be a betrothal between Arthur and Maria like Arthur and Catherine OTL. But in the OTL their oldest daughter Isabella died before OTL wedding of Catherine and Arthur, so I don't know if the Trastamara would break the betrothal of Arthur and Maria so Maria could marry Manuel of Portugal or proceed with the marriage of Arthur and Maria. If Maria did end up marrying Arthur and he died quickly after the marriage like the OTL, I'm thinking the Trastamara would try to their best to marry her off to Manuel quickly rather than waiting for Prince Henry to grow up.
As for boy Catherine, there wouldn't be a Portuguese Princess to marry. If he is still unmarried when his brother predeceases him, I'd put my money on either Margaret or Mary Tudor or Margaret of Austria since his parents would want him to marry the daughter of a King.
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I think we are pretty much in agreement, a Portuguese alliance always took priority for Ferdinand and Isabella.
Mary Tudor would have been too young for a male Catherine of Aragon, most likely Margaret Tudor too.
Like I said, once Juan died in 1497 there would have been panic at the court of Ferdinand and Isabella and the need to marry the male Catherine to someone would become urgent so that he could produce heirs.
Male Catherine was just 12/13 at the time of his older brother's death but Margaret Tudor was just 8! Your talking about another 4-5 years at least before a marriage could be consummated. Margaret didn't get married until 1503 and even then there was concern from her grandmother Margaret Beaufort about her youth.
Margaret of Austria was the perfect candidate, her father would have been pushing for her to marry her dead husband's brother, she was slightly older and she had proven she could conceive as she gave birth to Juan's stillborn child after his death.
After perhaps a year after the stillbirth and the mourning period, male Catherine would now be 14. I think everyone would agree that a marriage to Margaret made sense on all counts.
Yes. Ironically male! Catherine will end up in the same situation as her female counterpart's husband.
As for who can Arthur marry TTL...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_of_Naples_%281478%E2%80%931518%29 - THE OTL backup candidate for Arthur, older than him, may have issue from (TTL non-incest) match. If Spanish alliance is still in the card for Brits, Arthur'll marry Joanna of Naples.
Or we, as said before, can "butterfly balance" the events by having Miguel de Paz being born female AND his (her) mother Isabel to survive ordeal, and this way Maria and not Joanna marries to Britain.
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