AHC: stronger Czechoslovak military before German occupation
- Thread starter mlp
- Start date
I don't think that thats possible. unless you throw out the Sudetendeutschen completely. OTL the Czechs had a formidavble defensive (and fortified= position along the German border. But that one was eroded by the part rightful) claims that this territory is inhabited by "Germans". So after the loss of the Sudetenland teh Czech republic lost the best defensible poistiosn. In addition the border to (lower) Ausstria doen not offer good defensiible terrain, so once Austria is part of Germany there is no chance to "hold".
In addition the Czech military was IMHO top notch before 1939. With Skoda (but other manufactureres too - Avia planes) the Czech Republic had quite modern equipment.
Basically there is not much they could do domestically.
In addition the Czech military was IMHO top notch before 1939. With Skoda (but other manufactureres too - Avia planes) the Czech Republic had quite modern equipment.
Basically there is not much they could do domestically.
Saphroneth
Banned
The military strength was there against pure-German attack. Additional fortification along the southern border, coupled with an easier political ride, would make holding out arguably easy.
I think the widely held belief is that the Czechs could have held the Nazi's back with their defenses in the Sudetenland long enough for Hitler to be removed from power if they chose to fight in '38.
The Czech fortifications were called the Eastern Maginot line - and that was not in a bad way.
Even Hitler, when he saw it, got a bit of a scare.
The thing was probably that they had very few 'friends' around.
We had a discussion some time back on this. The opinions were split between Germany just conquering them with no hiccups and the other end: It would seriously have upset Germany.
If Germany had had serious losses in both troops and materiel, the myth of invincibility could not have been created.
and let us not forget: Germany was not ready for a major conflict in 1938.
Ivan
Even Hitler, when he saw it, got a bit of a scare.
The thing was probably that they had very few 'friends' around.
We had a discussion some time back on this. The opinions were split between Germany just conquering them with no hiccups and the other end: It would seriously have upset Germany.
If Germany had had serious losses in both troops and materiel, the myth of invincibility could not have been created.
and let us not forget: Germany was not ready for a major conflict in 1938.
Ivan
Isn't there some talk that the generals would have attempted a coup against Hitler upon receiving the order to invade Czechosolvakia? In that case, the time they need to hold out for is, well, quite short. 
Very likely but depends.
Strength of Luftwaffe was one factors which played towards capitulation.
I
If Czechoslovak military decided in mid 30-ties instead to modernized their bomber force by buying license of Soviet SB-2 to modernized its fighter force - buying license for Hurricane or speeding up development of Avia B-35 - maybe by not being cheap but buying license for retractable mechanism by itself instead of trying to develop its own.
Indeed however Germans in Czechoslovakia still had rights which were on much higher level then was common at the time. After all German political parties were for years part of Czechoslovak Government. Maybe some POD to even more accommodate Germans however with Hitler in power and his propaganda towards Germans it would still be hard to avoid Konrad Henlein to gain so much votes in 1935 elections.
Any idea how to keep German votes in Czechoslovakia more in hands of not Nazi aligned parties?
Maybe if Czechoslovak government decided instead of trying to sit on money during Depression by spending them on fortifications towards Austria it would be possible. Anschluss and French not reaction came as a surprise. One of Benes's mistakes in his foreign policy.
Anyway Czechoslovak command was aware of lack in manpower and new it can not field enough men to defend long border. That's why decision was made to combine fortifications and mobile defense. So maybe even little bit more investments in armor.
OTL 350 excelent LT-35s were available with LT-38 ready for production. Another 150 tanks could be obtained by confiscating foreign orders available in Czechoslovak factories. However there was some troubles to order medium tanks - prototype of ST vz.39 was available in December 1937. If quick decision was made and order fort 300 pcs which was placed and then cancelled in April could provide at least part of these quantity in September 1938.
Four Fast Division were fielded, one of it equipped mostly with older tanks for example LT-34s (which actually could be modernized to almost LT-35 level).
Most of these Fast Divisions were prepared in Moravia against Germans concentrated in Austria.
Yes lower lands on southern part of Czech lands border with Austria are very hard to defend. However plans were made to blow up dams in area and flood advancing German columns.
Richter von Manthofen;9753931 In addition the Czech military was IMHO top notch before 1939. With Skoda (but other manufactureres too - Avia planes) the Czech Republic had quite modern equipment. Basically there is not much they could do domestically.[/QUOTE said:
Naturally I assume teh Slovas are anti czech, but a true parnership might keep the Slovaks pro Czech (but then Hungary might wants back Oberungarn).
Actually relations were more complicated then that. There were calls for stronger autonomy or even federalization of Czechoslovakia from Slovak side. However in 1938 especially with Hungarians allying with Germany Slovak politicians and population sided with Prague.
As I said many times in other discussions Slovaks mobilized without problems and there were not huge issues in the army because of Czech Slovak relations. BUt there was room for improvements of course.
History seems to indicate that at least SOME Slovaks sided with Germany and got their own state in 1939!
I'd agree. There wasn't much the Czechs could do internally to prevent Munich.
Sure. History indicates a lot of things. However situation is usually more complex then two lines in history books usually indicate.
After political and international situation changed. Before September 1938 France and to degree were Czechoslovak allies and basically considered guarantors of Czechoslovak independence. After Munich situation was different. Slovaks were granted autonomy however Prague refused to defend Slovakia against Hungarian and Polish territorial request. After March 1939 when Germany pushed Czechoslovak president Hacha to agree with occupation and pushed Tiso for Slovak independence by black mailing him with information on Hungarian troops movements towards Slovakia - which he declined to proclaim from Berlin but requested Slovak Diet to vote for it after considering German guarantee of Slovak territorial integrity.
Anyway funny think is that while Czech historians often can't forgive Slovak independence from years 1939-44(45) most of them agree that Slovak would fight for Czechoslovakia in September 1938 and there was not threat of terrorist attacks from side of Slovak separatists. It as actually Polish and Hungarian terrorists groups entering Slovak territory. There was actually regular battle with Hungarian terrorists from Rongyos Garda, Czechoslovak army used some tanks artillery and believe air force too. Most of the terrorists were captured.
As to Slovak independence. Slovak general population was in 20th century pretty passive in its political expression and left decision on elected elites.
That happened in 1918 and in 1939. One big exception is Slovak National Uprising against pro German regime.
Same can be said about Slovak independence declaration in January 1993. If there was referendum there would be Czechoslovakia till today.
Actually not electing Benes for president in 1935 - which was close call and happened only because of support from... Andrej Hlinka's Slovak People Party - same party which ruled wartime Slovak republic in 1939-45.
Changed that and situation may change as it was president Benes who accepted Munich agreement and ceded territory to Germany which was actually act of treason - only Czechoslovak parliament could vote on that.
deathscompanion1
Banned
Actually not electing Benes for president in 1935 - which was close call and happened only because of support from... Andrej Hlinka's Slovak People Party - same party which ruled wartime Slovak republic in 1939-45.
Changed that and situation may change as it was president Benes who accepted Munich agreement and ceded territory to Germany which was actually act of treason - only Czechoslovak parliament could vote on that.
Chamberlain got pissed off OTL at the Czechs for standing in the way of his agreement. If they don't sign he'll threaten Britain sitting out which immediately forces the French to sit out so the Czechs either fight on alone and lose or give up OTL possibly ending up not disproving appeasement until later.
Well it was clear that without support of its allies war would be lost.
On one side I understand Benes. He calculated that sooner or later Hitler will overplay his cards and western allies would be in war with Germany. This in his schemes would bring restoration of Czechoslovakia in its original borders.
Basically he was right.
Of course much smarter would be not to relay only on France but reach agreement with Poles. However how to do that I am not sure. Handing over Tesin area would definitely do the trick but it was strategically important for Czechoslovakia too.
Since there are pro-Nazis (extremist) and non-Nazis (moderates) and they both what things,by getting the moderates in to power and start giving in to there demands,so there will be the fallowing situation as far as the voters are concern,moderates get things done,and obtain rights for them,will the nazis talk s...
But you need Praga,to realize that she will have to share power,with the other parts of the country.
Will this will be enough for the voters not to vote for the Nazis,i have no idea,but will surely help,or if Hitler will care about there votes and leave Czechoslovakia alone.
Yeah but don't take those tanks form your friends,especially the ones that can help,or
at least help (make) some of Czechoslovakia enemy's thing twice.
First of was the mistake (or lack of vision),to see that Czechoslovakia will always to live with Germany,and that there can be a worst Germany the Wiemar one.
Then the second mistake was to believe that others will protect Czechoslovakia.
But for alliance of the two,both country's need to realize that they need each other.
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friendly neighbours
Making Poland be on friendly terms with Czechoslovakia is not impossible - just resolve the Těšín question somehow.
Hungary is tougher - any TL where Slovakia is not part of Hungary would almost automatically destroy any friendly relationship. If however Slovakia remains within Hungary, *Bohemia and Moravia and *Greater Hungary would have no territorial disputes whatsoever and can be on excellent terms.
Alternatively, make some butterflies during breakup of Austria-Hungary, Hungary could keep Burgenland after WWI, and then Hitler's territorial demands would go both against Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Grudgingly, Hungary would accept Slovak borders (especially if since the very start they'd be a bit more to the north) and side with Czechoslovakia. Then, having Czechoslovak-Polish-Hungarian alliance against Germany would absolutely prevent *Münich agreement .
Making Poland be on friendly terms with Czechoslovakia is not impossible - just resolve the Těšín question somehow.
Hungary is tougher - any TL where Slovakia is not part of Hungary would almost automatically destroy any friendly relationship. If however Slovakia remains within Hungary, *Bohemia and Moravia and *Greater Hungary would have no territorial disputes whatsoever and can be on excellent terms.
Alternatively, make some butterflies during breakup of Austria-Hungary, Hungary could keep Burgenland after WWI, and then Hitler's territorial demands would go both against Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Grudgingly, Hungary would accept Slovak borders (especially if since the very start they'd be a bit more to the north) and side with Czechoslovakia. Then, having Czechoslovak-Polish-Hungarian alliance against Germany would absolutely prevent *Münich agreement .