ACH: larger/existing Indian territory

Saphroneth

Banned
Looking at the original idea of where the Native American Indian reservations were in North America, it's actually huge - the Appalachians to the Mississippi.

But then it got chopped up and moved elsewhere, again and again, until now there's only a small number of small reservations.

Question is - is there ANY way that the amount of territory given over as reservations in North America (in the area of the OTL CONUS) can at least match the size of the one in the ACW? (That is, modern Olkahoma.)
Because it kind of seems like they got a horrible deal.
(Best would be if the original reserve line of 1763 was adhered to.)
 
Maybe if the Indians advanced to USa/European level of technology. The North American natives were already in contact or influence by the Spanish in the south before even Jamestown even appeared.

So by the time USA fused together, the natives would be one advanced nation. USA expansion to the west would be impossible since they have to face a sophisticated nation in the west. However, this would butterfly French Louisiana. This unified Indian nation with somewhat parity European sophistication may have 20-30 mill population by 1776 with a pod the first contacts between Spain and North America. That's 200+ years enough time to fuse as one nation and adapt technology.

So in ATL, what is otl conus would be composed of new Spain, unified Indian nation and USA.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Maybe if the Indians advanced to USa/European level of technology. The North American natives were already in contact or influence by the Spanish in the south before even Jamestown even appeared.

So by the time USA fused together, the natives would be one advanced nation. USA expansion to the west would be impossible since they have to face a sophisticated nation in the west. However, this would butterfly French Louisiana. This unified Indian nation with somewhat parity European sophistication may have 20-30 mill population by 1776 with a pod the first contacts between Spain and North America. That's 200+ years enough time to fuse as one nation and adapt technology.

So in ATL, what is otl conus would be composed of new Spain, unified Indian nation and USA.
Would it be a USA, even? I ask because I could imagine the BNA colonists being a bit reluctant to endorse a wholesale split with the mother country if there was a large, modern nation not all that far to the west. If so, then there might be a kind of more simmering warfare until a new election in the UK brought in a potential compromise government.

It's a cool idea, by the way! A kind of... hm, would a name like "Confederation of Mississippi" work?
WAG at borders... Appalachians through to somewhere in the Rockies? And going up towards somewhere vaguely near where the OTL US-Canada border is.
 
Would it be a USA, even? I ask because I could imagine the BNA colonists being a bit reluctant to endorse a wholesale split with the mother country if there was a large, modern nation not all that far to the west. If so, then there might be a kind of more simmering warfare until a new election in the UK brought in a potential compromise government.

It's a cool idea, by the way! A kind of... hm, would a name like "Confederation of Mississippi" work?
WAG at borders... Appalachians through to somewhere in the Rockies? And going up towards somewhere vaguely near where the OTL US-Canada border is.

You are right it may not even be USA.

I thought of a possible scenario wherein the resources and access to technology can happen to the natives. Central plains was right for excellent agriculture as well as contacts with Spain. So if the civilization there would be advanced enough to take advantage of the resources, they can have that level of manpower by 200 years. With that being said, it may have even parts of otl canada since Native American tribes may want protection from European colonials. Since this advanced independent native nation is the only thing that can stop European expansion, being absorbed by them is a little price to pay.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
You are right it may not even be USA.

I thought of a possible scenario wherein the resources and access to technology can happen to the natives. Central plains was right for excellent agriculture as well as contacts with Spain. So if the civilization there would be advanced enough to take advantage of the resources, they can have that level of manpower by 200 years. With that being said, it may have even parts of otl canada since Native American tribes may want protection from European colonials. Since this advanced independent native nation is the only thing that can stop European expansion, being absorbed by them is a little price to pay.

If I had a good paint program I'd try a map.


Hmm, here's a possible structure, drawing from Roman practises as well as more modern ones:

Republican. Head of state chosen for three-year term by election, with each tribe having equal say (i.e. if someone gets 28/50 votes in one tribe, and another gets 15000/18000 in a tribe, both get one tribe's worth of elected-ness - vaguely modelled on Roman consular elections.) If they are incapacitated in office, then a new election is held "as soon as practical" for a short-term head of state.
Bicameral.
Upper house is known as "House of chiefs" - one representative per tribe, chosen internally by varying methods. All that matters is that your tribe sends one person, not several. Head of government is longest serving member of this body.
Lower house is allocated by region, balanced so that there's about the same number of members as the house of chiefs, and is by tri-yearly election. Redistricted every fifteen years?
The bodies (head of state, upper house, lower house) determine their membership tri-yearly, but on different years.

There's a reasonable degree of tribal autonomy, but also "Laws of all men" which apply cross-tribe and override tribal rules.
Taxation is a byzantine mess, like with every nation ever. ;)
Heavy trade focus using the riverine system of the American interior. Relations with Spanish are mixed - officially fairly cool - and the same with British North America, though it varies considerably with latitude.
The islands in the Caribbean are a source of tension.
 
Governance I believe will depend on how far their contact with Spain is. They can easily adapt European governance or go as simple as absolute monarchy. Someone with more knowledge of Native American governance should have a say on how the 16th century natives in central USA will modernize from tribal leadership to centralize/federalize governance within a span 100 years from Spanish contact.

The other issue of such a powerful native American state is that it can throw its weight around the colonies.

How does it react with the King Philip's War?

How does it react to Pueblo revolt?

Such a powerful state can turn tide on those revolts or even expel the colonists. It would have the same power as OTL continental France during the time period but the Europeans still needs to project its power while the native American state just lives next door.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Governance I believe will depend on how far their contact with Spain is. They can easily adapt European governance or go as simple as absolute monarchy. Someone with more knowledge of Native American governance should have a say on how the 16th century natives in central USA will modernize from tribal leadership to centralize/federalize governance within a span 100 years from Spanish contact.

Oh, true. I just sort of pulled it out of nowhere, based on the idea that "This setup would allow the tribes influence without it being the empire of X tribe", and on the supposition that the Spaniards might have mentioned Roman law at some point (it being, literally, the classics). I think it's not too out there, though, given that some of the tribes were quite democratic. (Electing leaders for life I think was used sometimes...?)
 
Without going to an early PoD, I think the last best bet lies in more tribes superficially adopting Anglo-American political, social, technological, and religious norms - and welcoming some whites into leadership positions through intermarriage early in the 1800's. This approach came close to saving the Cherokees and the other Southern "civilized" tribes from expulsion...and probably would have if the US had a president who would listen to the US Supreme Court. Even if they did eventually bow to pressure and agree to move with due compensation, the five civilized tribes' "Indian Territory" in OTL Oklahoma was quite large. If other tribes had adopted the same strategies, they may have been able to negotiate for equally large territories in the central and northern plains. This of course made other tribes already resident in these areas victims of the expansion, but anything that allowed Indian nations to retain real, legally recognized, authority in new state-sized homelands within the United States (as the civilized tribes did in Oklahoma until after the Civil War - and to some extent until 1907) might have allowed some intermediate way for their inevitable incorporation into the US. Perhaps autonomous regions or largely independent commonwealths like Puerto Rico?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Without going to an early PoD, I think the last best bet lies in more tribes superficially adopting Anglo-American political, social, technological, and religious norms - and welcoming some whites into leadership positions through intermarriage early in the 1800's. This approach came close to saving the Cherokees and the other Southern "civilized" tribes from expulsion...and probably would have if the US had a president who would listen to the US Supreme Court. Even if they did eventually bow to pressure and agree to move with due compensation, the five civilized tribes' "Indian Territory" in OTL Oklahoma was quite large. If other tribes had adopted the same strategies, they may have been able to negotiate for equally large territories in the central and northern plains. This of course made other tribes already resident in these areas victims of the expansion, but anything that allowed Indian nations to retain real, legally recognized, authority in new state-sized homelands within the United States (as the civilized tribes did in Oklahoma until after the Civil War - and to some extent until 1907) might have allowed some intermediate way for their inevitable incorporation into the US. Perhaps autonomous regions or largely independent commonwealths like Puerto Rico?
That would be, as you say, the last-hope position - but yes, assuming the US government keeps its word for once regarding the Indian Territory then that does satisfy the terms.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I actually think the "Amerindian nation" option would be quite an interesting ATL - particularly since it would probably be possible to have a PoD a couple of hundred years in the past from when some of the major events actually take place.
 
I actually think the "Amerindian nation" option would be quite an interesting ATL - particularly since it would probably be possible to have a PoD a couple of hundred years in the past from when some of the major events actually take place.

Yes it is very interesting and possible. Someone just have to write it.;)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Yes it is very interesting and possible. Someone just have to write it.;)

You know, I might want to give it a go.
Admittedly, because my knowledge of who people were at that time isn't all that great, I'd be relying a lot on "These people aren't quite the same people as OTL and often don't have the same names, because the PoD was over a hundred years ago".
 
Well, for an ATL, you will only rely on historical facts at start of your pod and/ or at the beginning of encountering that group of people or nation. Any interaction after that is subject for butterflies or change.
 
Why not go for the old AH stand-by: The Iroquois side with the Americans during the American revolution, to the rumored offer to ask for a delegation at the signing of the DoI is ITTL offered and accepted - thus, the Iroquois eventually are granted a state out of upstate New York, and interactions are used as a framework in negotiations with Indian tribes in the future - those who come to terms and "civilize" are treated as equals, among them the Five Civilized Tribes, the Navajo and the Lakota.
 
What reservations are you talking about? Before the armies of the United States swept in "Indian Territory" was a polite way of saying "we do not control these savages." It was not a political unit, only an area of reference. This is profoundly ignorant, and I do hope one improves their grasp of the regional histories at the time.

Even if the Iroquois are intergrated and used a template for future political interactions between the United States there would still be immense issues. Wars against the Seminoles brought out a particularly ugly side to the American political establishment. This ugly side would ITTL still rear its head against some nation unwilling to yield to the Anglo authority. The stereotypical land hungry settlers were never really restrained OTL. Unless the Federal Government ITTL is hellbent on stopping the westward flow of colonists, then a fuckton of wars that are instigated by white encroachment would still occur. The colonists would be presented as victims, with press figures demanding the dispossession of whatever Indigenous people are not putting up with their shit, you know, OTL.

"House of Chiefs"

Have you ever read works detailing the different governmental structures found among the Indigenous Nations? Because your scheme would be utter crap for the natives of my homeland, in the Pacific Northwest. The nations there were comparatively decentralised with village headmen holding more power than any "chief".
 
One huge problem that most people aren't addressing is the fact Natives are numerous cultures, languages, religions, with each their own varying levels of complexity in social structure and internal dynamics. Yes there are commonalities and shared traditions across tribal lines, but even here there are several distinct cultural spheres that only interacted at their frontiers before contact. Not to mention the sheer differences in development that occurred during the 500+ year period of the Post-Colombian era.

At what point are you proposing such a pan-tribal nation form? And where? Focusing on what would become the Anglosphere, during the early years, there's a chance to save the complex and more urban centered Mississipians, such as them getting access to superior strains of Mesoamerican corn and domestic animals from Europe before they faced societal collapse from their own short comings and the Eurasian pandemics. Here you could see an empire or confederation arise that would be capable over time to field armies and adapt more complex European technology.

After this, things get much more difficult. Given different colonial claims, which create more competition and space for buffers and proxy forces, you could see the indigenous equivalent of Thailand and India-style princely states develop, or at the very least more autonomous areas like the original Indian territory that would become Oklahoma. If there was perhaps more competition out west, such as a stronger New Spain/Mexico, or somehow Russia manages to settle/control more or some other colonial development that starts on the west coast and moves east, the plains tribes could become buffer communities that hold onto claimed territories of various states/colonies, somewhat like how Russia and China conquered Central Asia; maybe some form of an alliance could form and remain a neutral Afghanistan-style buffer, and eventually build up their tech and social complexity.

Or going into Pre-Colombian PODs, you could have more complex societies develop or have more domesticated animals like in such TLs as Twovultures' Peccary Rex and Dvaldon's Thule empires in the arctic. Another possibility is to have a more united and sophisticated society develop amongst the Pacific Northwest tribes. Or beyond the Anglosphere there's always Mesoamerica and the Andes empires and states (and here's my shameless plug for my TL :p).

But the ideas of a "Senate of Chiefs" and just growing potatoes and worshiping Jesus is not going to cut it. It's rather childish, artificial, and naive, and displays an ignorance of the actual dynamics and diversity of the Americas' indigenous peoples. And even with the common AH trope of the Iroquois siding with the early US isn't going to cut it. By this point we were internally divided between religious camps, personal ties between both Patriots and Loyalists, along with societal decay from enclosure on lands and fading influence, credibility, and economic output out west. Basically we were on our last leg by the ARW. Not to mention as well that the Haudenosaunee remained neutral during the ARW until Sullivan's Trail. Only individual bands supported either side before this, and created a civil war amongst the league. After our homeland was burnt to the ground, regardless of previous aid rendered to the Americans by certain tribes and individuals, it was only then we wholly sided with the British. This was also because the British told us that we'd only get food and refuge if we fought for them. Plus it wasn't the British authorities that were threatening to steal our lands, it was the Americans. At best if somehow we were convinced to side with the States, it would most likely just be larger reservations.
 
Actually, like Saphroneth I discussed before you guys came in, an earlier PoD is much easier and possible. If we rely the birth of the AmerIndian Nation when USA has already fused together is already the hardest possible PoD.

The setting was a place to conduct large agriculture system, within the earliest possible contacts with Europe to acquire bactera and advanced technology, and poor initially, far enough from initial conquest in order to develop the civilization. So in a sense this AmerIndian Nation will be more powerful than Europeans in the Americas due to parity technology, the sheer size of the population and land area by 100 years upon initial contact.

In my opinion, it doesnt have to be Christian. Advancement is not a monopoly of Christianity. Absolute monarchy is also not a monopoly of European civilization. It is highly feasible to have Absolute monarchy in native americans.

With regards to domesticated animals, this has been covered by initial contacts with Spain.

The discussion is now how will the new AmerIndian Nation modernized its government. For me, a dictator and absolute monarchy can easily unify a larger piece of land. They can easily adapt to technology given time which the Aztecs and Incans never had the luxury vs Spain. After that, they can develop to more a sophisticated governance once they have acquired enough strength, wealth and power.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
What reservations are you talking about? Before the armies of the United States swept in "Indian Territory" was a polite way of saying "we do not control these savages." It was not a political unit, only an area of reference. This is profoundly ignorant, and I do hope one improves their grasp of the regional histories at the time.

Even if the Iroquois are intergrated and used a template for future political interactions between the United States there would still be immense issues. Wars against the Seminoles brought out a particularly ugly side to the American political establishment. This ugly side would ITTL still rear its head against some nation unwilling to yield to the Anglo authority. The stereotypical land hungry settlers were never really restrained OTL. Unless the Federal Government ITTL is hellbent on stopping the westward flow of colonists, then a fuckton of wars that are instigated by white encroachment would still occur. The colonists would be presented as victims, with press figures demanding the dispossession of whatever Indigenous people are not putting up with their shit, you know, OTL.



Have you ever read works detailing the different governmental structures found among the Indigenous Nations? Because your scheme would be utter crap for the natives of my homeland, in the Pacific Northwest. The nations there were comparatively decentralised with village headmen holding more power than any "chief".
There's a reason we were using a far-in-the-past PoD - the idea being to have there be a genuinely centralized state of Amerindians, roughly speaking around the Mississippi valley. I don't know if it would be able to get that far west - the Rockies might be a natural boundary for it.
The point is, having a centralized state with contemporary modern technology (and, if possible, agriculture on a large and productive scale) would mean an Indian nation with the power to protect itself.

That's also why I cobbled together the government system I did. It's the far end of a couple of centuries of consolidation and compromise, basically... of the same type which turned tribal groups into nations in OTL, though accelerated by time pressure.
 
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