WI: Reinforced Operation Typhoon captured Moscow?

What if a reinforced Operation Typhoon led to the capture of Moscow by November 7th, 1941?

I've been reading the book Operation Typhoon by David Stahel, among other articles, and thought i'd put this up.

Here are a few topics i would like to discuss.

1. What if AGC gets extra tanks?

Germany produced 815 tanks between June-August 1941. Of this number Hitler released 306 of the tanks to AGC for Operation Typhoon. The other 509 tanks were kept by Hitler in a special reserve pool for quote "future campaigns." During OTL AGC was desperately short on armour, in October alone they lost 325 tanks. If AGC was given this extra tank boast, all 815 tanks, could it have had an impact on the operation? i imagine even having spare parts around would have helped.

2. What if Luftwaffe gets extra aircraft for Operation Typhoon?

Hitler in Dec ,when the situation was really bad, sent alot of aircraft to support AGC and stem the Soviet advance. I was wondering what the result would have been had he committed more air forces to Operation Typhoon earlier. This would probably help the supply situation.

from wiki: "The Luftwaffe was quickly reinforced, as Hitler hoped it would "save" the situation. Two Kampfgruppen (Bomber Groups) (II./KG 4 and II./KG 30) arrived from refitting in Germany, whilst four Transportgruppen (Transport Groups) with a strength of 102 Junkers Ju 52 transports were deployed from Luftflotte 4 (Air Fleet 4) to evacuate surrounded army units and improve the supply line to the front-line forces. It was a last minute effort and it worked. The German air arm was to help prevent a total collapse of Army Group Centre. Despite the Soviets' best efforts, the Luftwaffe had contributed enormously to the survival of Army Group Center. Between 17 and 22 December the Luftwaffe destroyed 299 motor vehicles and 23 tanks around Tula, hampering the Red Army's pursuit of the German Army."

3. What if AGC advanced on Moscow earlier and on a more narrower front?

Against von Bock's wishes Hitler expanded Typhoon to include the capture of Rzhev and Kalinin in the north and Kursk in the south. This in the words of author Jonathan Jordan resulted in the "dilution of AGC armoured strength."

What if instead the Germans focused on driving on Moscow as quickly as possible. Reinhardt's Panzer Group instead of heading for Rzhev and Kalinin could have helped Kulge's infantry with the Viaz'ma pocket. This would then free up more of Hoepner's Panzer forces to start the drive towards Moscow earlier.

In the south Guderian instead of sending the XLVIII Panzer Corps to Kursk could have used it to help with the Bryansk pocket, while his other forces made a dash for Tula. Capturing Tula on October 3-4, would make things much smoother later.

from wiki: "On 3 October, Guderian's forces captured Orel and subsequently gained access to a paved highway which led to Moscow, some 180 mi (290 km) away. Meanwhile, elements of the 2nd Panzer Army reported that they had bypassed Bryansk and were heading toward Karachev. Bock ordered Guderian to press on toward Tula, but within hours this order had been reversed by High Command. The reversal of the order called for Guderian to attack Bryansk where — along with Vyazma — two massive encirclements of Soviet forces were occurring. Bock argued that the area between Orel and Tula remained relatively free of Soviet forces and that Tula could be captured within hours. Ultimately, Bock agreed to divert Guderian's tanks toward Bryansk."

The overall goal should be to push towards Moscow, as quickly as possible, in early October, while the weathers good, and ruin Zhukov's attempts to establish a defensive line in front of the city. I would like to remind every one that at this stage only 90,000 Soviet troops are defending Moscow!

In closing

In mid November Zhukov gets tons of reinforcements, equivalent of 40ish divisions, how would he use them if most of Moscow is in German hands?

Interested in everones thoughts:D:D
 
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Not going to happen. The Germans just don't have the logistics to do it. Those 90,000 defending troops might as well have been 900,000 given the state of the German supply situation and logistical tail, doubly so given the imminent on-set of mud, following the Vyazma-Bryansk encirclement. Releasing more tanks to reinforce the front actually makes things worse as those replacement tanks take up room on trains that could be used for fuel and ammunition. Adding more tank or air forces that were sent elsewhere does likewise, as it adds to fuel and ammunition delivery requirements on a system which is already strained to the maximum and breaking down for it. At best, the Germans can make it to Moscow at which point they get sucked into urban combat. But they will not be able to take the city before winter descends en-force and they will be even more exhausted and vulnerable to the Soviet counter-offensive for the effort.

Quite frankly, the Germans would be better off to abandon their efforts to take Moscow completely and withdrawing back to a line running roughly through Rzhev-Vyazma-Bryansk, which is at the absolute limit of what they can supply.
 
Not going to happen. The Germans just don't have the logistics to do it. Those 90,000 defending troops might as well have been 900,000 given the state of the German supply situation and logistical tail, doubly so given the imminent on-set of mud, following the Vyazma-Bryansk encirclement. Releasing more tanks to reinforce the front actually makes things worse as those replacement tanks take up room on trains that could be used for fuel and ammunition. Adding more tank or air forces that were sent elsewhere does likewise, as it adds to fuel and ammunition delivery requirements on a system which is already strained to the maximum and breaking down for it. At best, the Germans can make it to Moscow at which point they get sucked into urban combat. But they will not be able to take the city before winter descends en-force and they will be even more exhausted and vulnerable to the Soviet counter-offensive for the effort.

Quite frankly, the Germans would be better off to abandon their efforts to take Moscow completely and withdrawing back to a line running roughly through Rzhev-Vyazma-Bryansk, which is at the absolute limit of what they can supply.

Your probably right, but something about this campaign just doesn't make sense to me

The Germans, for once, have numerical superiority and win their perhaps greatest victory at Viaz'ma-Byansk. They then by mid-Oct are, according to google maps, within a 3-4 hour drive from Moscow and somehow they don't take the city or even get near it for another month because of a little mud!

I could have walked the distance:D:D:D:D:D

Is the rasputitsa that bad?
 
They then by mid-Oct are, according to google maps, within a 3-4 hour drive from Moscow and somehow they don't take the city or even get near it for another month because of a little mud!

...

Is the rasputitsa that bad?

Very.

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Now pile weather conditions like the above on top of the supply problems the Germans were facing plus their general state of exhaustion and it becomes perfectly comprehensible how the advance utterly collapsed.
 
Army group centre can't capture Moscow. Bad german intelligence informed the OKW that Stalin had no more reserves left so even if army group centre is reinforced the soviet counteroffensive is still going to come as a shock.
 
Even if the Germans could have moved on the city, it would simply have been Stalingrad a year earlier, and even more decisive, since it would have sapped the Germans earlier, and thus possibly prevented the big offensive AGS made in 1942.
 
I think we have had a few discussions on this topic.

One of the threads had as a conlcusion that it would be possible to 'capture' Moscow.

But we still need to find out what 'capture' entails. It is not like getting to Moscow and booking the nearest hotel until February.

Stalingrad springs to mind in this instance.

So, the answer is YES and NO

Ivan
 
what was the coclusion concerning Leningrad. If AGC cannot take Moscow, then following the encirlcment battles of AGs in Ukraine, would it have been possible to concentrate on Leningrad and take care of that thorn?
 

thaddeus

Donor
what was the coclusion concerning Leningrad. If AGC cannot take Moscow, then following the encirlcment battles of AGs in Ukraine, would it have been possible to concentrate on Leningrad and take care of that thorn?

a thorn of their own making, might have been better to capture Murmansk and fall back to defensible position at Narva, Estonia, which latter was done anyway.
 
Army group centre can't capture Moscow. Bad german intelligence informed the OKW that Stalin had no more reserves left so even if army group centre is reinforced the soviet counteroffensive is still going to come as a shock.

Even in December with the new reserves the Soviets only had a slight numerical advantage.

According to wiki: "Even with these new reserves, Soviet forces committed to the operation numbered only 1,100,000 men,[67] only slightly outnumbering the Wehrmacht. Nevertheless, with careful troop deployment, a ratio of two-to-one was reached at some critical points"

AGC ,if reinforced before December, should be able to survive the Soviet counter offensive and prehaps hold the frontline.

What happens next though i'm not sure?
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
Even in December with the new reserves the Soviets only had a slight numerical advantage.

According to wiki: "Even with these new reserves, Soviet forces committed to the operation numbered only 1,100,000 men,[67] only slightly outnumbering the Wehrmacht. Nevertheless, with careful troop deployment, a ratio of two-to-one was reached at some critical points"

AGC ,if reinforced before December, should be able to survive the Soviet counter offensive and prehaps hold the frontline.

What happens next though i'm not sure.

It's not so much a matter of numbers as morale. Time and again the Germans are told that the Soviet bucket is bare, and then they run into fifty thousand more troops...
And they've been fighting since June, and they're hundreds upon hundreds of miles from home, their logistics is crap, they've had to slog through mud and deal with Soviet superweapons (T-34 and KV-1 - completely unanticipated) and the rumblings of partisan activity are already in the air.
(It's also entirely likely that they've seen or heard of at least one war crime being committed... possibly as a rumour, possibly not. The Hunger Plan was explicitly that they'd confiscate food to keep the spearheads going, because they'd have undergone logistical collapse otherwise.)
 
Even if the Germans could have moved on the city, it would simply have been Stalingrad a year earlier, and even more decisive, since it would have sapped the Germans earlier, and thus possibly prevented the big offensive AGS made in 1942.

In regard to the Stalingrad comparisons

The German plan was to envelope Moscow so wouldn't the 90,000 Soviets defenders play the part of 6th Army while the Soviet counterattacking forces, that arrive in Nov-Dec, as Operation Winter Storm?

Frankly, for the Germans, I like the odds of a longer attritional battle for Moscow better then I do Stalingrad.
 
Revised plan

Based on everyone's input I have assembled a revised plan, instead of trying to capture Moscow in early November it can be pushed back to late November.

During early October the Germans should try to capture as much ground as far forward as possible. Capturing Tula and uprooting the Mozhaisk defense line should be the goals. When the Rasputitsa starts to take effect in mid Oct, they should halt their offensive and focus on bringing up reinforcements/supplies for the final offensive. When the ground finally freezes on Nov 15th the Germans can begin their attack again. With Tula already in German hands, Guderian's offensive will go much smoother. Kulge needs to behave more aggressively then OTL and apply constant pressure in the center, on the direct road to Moscow, this will prevent the Soviets from moving more forces to the wings. With luck the German panzers would be able to link up at Noginsk and have enveloped Moscow by late November.

Its still a long shot but maybe?
 
The 'problem' with invading Russia is (I read it somewhere) that it is like looking into a funnel from the narrow end.

It just expands the further you go and anyone will soon run out of troops.

Russia is simply BIG.

That said, I still believe it is possible for Germany to get to Moscow in 1941, but that is only a part of the problem.

Ivan
 
That said, I still believe it is possible for Germany to get to Moscow in 1941, but that is only a part of the problem.

Ivan

Right even If the Germans by chance did take Moscow, that may just be the beginning of the problems. The Soviets aren't just going to surrender right? Partisan warfare forever?

or would Soviet resistance just collapse altogether if Moscow fell?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Right even If the Germans by chance did take Moscow, that may just be the beginning of the problems. The Soviets aren't just going to surrender right? Partisan warfare forever?

or would Soviet resistance just collapse altogether if Moscow fell?

It's actually hard to say. If they'd taken it on the hop (i.e. during the autumn panic), then maybe... but I think partisan warfare is inevitable. German military policy involved deliberately starving everyone and machine gunning down whole villages. There's that saying, "nothing left to lose"?
 
I remember reading somewhere that Stalin said he was going to stay in Moscow no matter what. If he actually does stay and the Germans capture him wouldn't that be the easiest way to have them win Barbarossa?
 
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