What if the 13 colonies never unified?

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aspie3000

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Say the colonies won the war of independence but because George Washington falls sick and dies or they simply can't agree on a unified government (the how is not important here) the colonies break off into 13 independent countries. How would history be different? What would happen, anything anybody could add would be helpful.
 
Harry Turtledove wrote a good book about just that scenario called "The Disunited States of America". I know some on this board hate Turtledove, and not of his writings are great, but I think this book is a realistic portrayal of what might have happened if the Articles of Confederation remained the law of the land. I think the POD (point of departure) for this book was the failure of the Great Compromise to pass, the compromise between small states (equal representation in the Senate) and the large states (proportional population-based representation in the House).
 
In his book, the U.S. devolved into a series of warring nation-states, with California being the largest/strongest of them. Common language and religion but still constant differences. Wars, treaties, trade agreements etc. Basically the states were much weaker, and constantly squabbling and fighting with each other, than the United States.
 
IMHO New York and Virginia become the most powerful of the former colonies ,they had the most money .New York from trade and Virginia from cotton .Other northern colonies are annexed to Canada and are eventually made independent except for Rhode island and Connecticut which and Delaware which are absorbed by neighboring colonies .
Anyway both NY and VA extend to the Mississippi river and stop there due to French ownership of everything west of the river and the fact that France is sort of a protector of the new nations .Mexico might become a major power in the region due to Americans never settling in Texas .
Maybe the Americas become like the south American countries OTL with alot of potential that was wasted fighting other powers .Or Virginia New York and anyother former colony get involved in the colonial game and take parts of Africa and Asia .(I would love to see a Virginian Congo if anyone is interested in doing a time line on this .)
World would be very different and maybe not in a good way but safe to assume everything from around 1800 onward would be very different depending on when you want the colonies to break up (maybe after everyone realized the folly of the Confederation ?)
 

aspie3000

Banned
The Carolinas and Georgia I could see forming there own southern Union, possibly with or without Virginia.
So basically the confederacy still exists but in a different manner?

This I could see as being a powerhouse in the region if it includes Virginia as the Southern colonies were rich from cash crops and apparently Virginia was richest of all.

What would become of the territory of Louisiana and the lower cities in New Orleans? I know that the American colonies would desire to expand.

I could also see the middle colonies of Pennsylvania and New York forming a union and of course a New England Union.

I'd expect the southern colonies to turn into a militaristic slaveocracy that possibly tries to take a shot at empire and could even carve up pieces of Africa and Latin America if it grows powerful enough.
 
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I'm curious how exactly does California form in this timeline?

Well in a sense, California was slightly more independent even in OTL.

Assuming the gold rush still happens, Americans (or whatever state they belong to) in the east might rush over to California and influence the region like OTL. This might lead to California being a break away nation.

Though, the date of independence would probably be a lot further away.
 
So Mexico would most likely be the bad ass on the block with possibly a southern alliance of the Carolina`s ,Georgia and maybe Virginia maybe not playing as second .New York forms a union with neighboring states so you have a northern and southern coalition of states .And maybe some of these states gain colonial empires .
Perhaps during the Napoleonic wars France and Britain prop up one or more of the states so no large entities emerge due to who formed alliances with who .(Virginia does not want to ally with the Carolina`s because they sided with France and they sided with the UK .New Jersey wont ally with Delaware because they sided with the UK while they sided with France .This would result in a Balkanising of the region and could lead to some major rivalries and wars .
 

aspie3000

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So Mexico would most likely be the bad ass on the block with possibly a southern alliance of the Carolina`s ,Georgia and maybe Virginia maybe not playing as second .New York forms a union with neighboring states so you have a northern and southern coalition of states .And maybe some of these states gain colonial empires .
Perhaps during the Napoleonic wars France and Britain prop up one or more of the states so no large entities emerge due to who formed alliances with who .(Virginia does not want to ally with the Carolina`s because they sided with France and they sided with the UK .New Jersey wont ally with Delaware because they sided with the UK while they sided with France .This would result in a Balkanising of the region and could lead to some major rivalries and wars .

Interesting. The United States stayed out of the Napoleonic wars on our timeline and because of the revolution in Haiti Napoleon sold Louisiana due to it not being profitable for him. Assuming that self preservation prevails and the American countries stay out of the war, who buys Louisiana?
 
So basically the confederacy still exists but in a different manner?

This I could see as being a powerhouse in the region if it includes Virginia as the Southern colonies were rich from cash crops and apparently Virginia was richest of all.

What would become of the territory of Louisiana and the lower cities in New Orleans? I know that the American colonies would desire to expand.

I could also see the middle colonies of Pennsylvania and New York forming a union and of course a New England Union.

Made a Map for you :)

I figured with no Americans, the French Revolution still occurs, but with no great Republican example in the USA, Napoleon just goes all Empire, and since hes not fighting a war with the majority of Europe, he manages to strongarm parts of Texas and Mexico from the Spanish and get Louisiana back.

Eventually Napoleon recognizes an alliance with Carolina would be very useful due to there close ties with Virginia and position in North America, and agrees to sell portions of the territory to them.

Knowing that the Carolinans love expansion, he begins to increase settlement of Texas by offering land grants and what not, and the region slowly but surely grows French from 1808-1845, when Napoleon passes away. His son takes the throne, and upon his ascension the Spanish and Austrians demand that their own lines be placed on the thrown, with the Austrians claiming that since the last Queen was of Austrian descent.

The Spanish want to restore a Bourbon to the throne, and the new Emperor is forced to fight an invasion, in which he fails, leading to a massive exodus of Bonaparte loyalists fleeing to the colony as the Austrians and Spanish agree to set up there own new monarchy.

The new French monarchy is weak, and merely a puppet of the Hapsburg and Bourbons. Tejas takes a shift to becoming the capitol of the new France in exile, exerting control over most of Frances colonies thanks to the continued support of there allies, though many fear the the Spanish-Austrian alliance may attempt to put them under puppet-France.


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with a balkanized US, presuming OTL everywhere else, you see:

Spanish Florida pushing it's boundaries north to the English Florida border. OTL, Spain claimed all of mississippi/alabama, western KY/tennessee, but were rebuffed by a unified US. TTL, they probably take it. IF Spain had half a clue how to develop a colony during that time period, they'd be on to something.

With no one to buy LA, Nap probably gives it back to the Spanish.

Britain probably take back the northwest territory, and would likely gain control of the northern states west of Great Lakes.

the 13 colonies are still going to have excess population which will migrate west. without a strong idealistic US, these immigrants will probably become spanish subjects. strong possibility some regions balkanize.

I don't think you see OTL power/development simply divvied up amongst the states. The sum of TTL power/dev is going to be less than sum of OTL unified US.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Except these are the same 13 states that literally

Say the colonies won the war of independence but because George Washington falls sick and dies or they simply can't agree on a unified government (the how is not important here) the colonies break off into 13 independent countries. How would history be different? What would happen, anything anybody could add would be helpful.

Except these are the same 13 states that literally just won a war against the imperial power of the age through a unified effort, and live in a dangerous world where all the European imperial powers are actively seeking to expand their hold, if not their reach, in the Western Hemisphere.

Randolph et al had a point of view on large states vs small ones, and on counting the enslaved at some proportion for representation, but they were not suicidal.

Even South Carolina was not quite to the "too small for a republic, too large for an asylum" stage.;)

The prospect of hanging has a tremendous effect on concentrating one's attention, of something like that...

Best, and Happy Thanksgiving to my fellow USians...
 

aspie3000

Banned
Except these are the same 13 states that literally just won a war against the imperial power of the age through a unified effort, and live in a dangerous world where all the European imperial powers are actively seeking to expand their hold, if not their reach, in the Western Hemisphere.

Randolph et al had a point of view on large states vs small ones, and on counting the enslaved at some proportion for representation, but they were not suicidal.

Even South Carolina was not quite to the "too small for a republic, too large for an asylum" stage.;)

The prospect of hanging has a tremendous effect on concentrating one's attention, of something like that...

Best, and Happy Thanksgiving to my fellow USians...

Happy Thanksgiving to you too. Like I said the how isn't important as I'm not good with PODs but I'm more interested in the results.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
South America's history, essentially...

Happy Thanksgiving to you too. Like I said the how isn't important as I'm not good with PODs but I'm more interested in the results.

South America's history, essentially...but not South America's geography, which is another reason why the "balkanized North America" is unlikely.

The Spanish colonial empire stretched from the Atlantic to the Pacific, in both South, Central, and North America; in addition, there's the competing Portuguese empire/nascent nation state/society/culture spang in the middle of it.

The above situation, however, was not mirrored in North America, certainly not among the Anglophone 13 colonies turned states - the odds are very much against your desired end state, due largely to geography, politics, demographics, and the strategic situation in North America in the 1780s and 1790s - self-preservation is a strong motivator.

I understand your desired end state, but it's very unlikely. There are reasons that - for example - "federal" nation states became pretty much a standard approach to nation-building in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries.

Best,
 
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