What was the best rifle of the 1870's?

Malone · Nov 20, 2015

Assuming there was some freelance mercenary/assassin/bounty hunter operating at that time, who had the option of choosing weapons from a number of nations what battle rifle do you think he'd have selected?

I believe the 3 main candidates would be:

The 1873 Springfield Trapdoor (United States)

The Martini-Henry (United Kingdom)

The Mauser Model 1871 aka Gewehr 71 (German Empire)

All these rifles were single-action shots. Meaning they could hold and fire only one metallic cartridge at a time.

MrP · Nov 20, 2015

Of the three, I'd say the Martini-Henry, but the Gras mle 1874 should also be on the list.

yulzari · Nov 20, 2015

There are plenty to choose from: Comblain, Beaumont, Remington and Vetterli for example. This is just at the summit of the black powder single shot breech loader. The Springfield is a generation behind the rest.

Personally I would equip my notional army with the Soper in WR No2 Musket cartridge but, in all honesty (and I have tried many of them), there is not a huge difference between them all.

Out of the OTL generally issued rifles I would choose the Martini Henry as made by Steyr (even though I use an BSA made Martini Henry in real life).

Byzantion · Nov 20, 2015

Malone said:
Assuming there was some freelance mercenary/assassin/bounty hunter operating at that time, who had the option of choosing weapons from a number of nations what battle rifle do you think he'd have selected?

I believe the 3 main candidates would be:

The 1873 Springfield Trapdoor (United States)

The Martini-Henry (United Kingdom)

The Mauser Model 1871 aka Gewehr 71 (German Empire)

All these rifles were single-action shots. Meaning they could hold and fire only one metallic cartridge at a time.

Winchester 66 ? The classic Western riffle. Didn´t it give the Siox an edge against sharprifle wearing Custer´s men or did I picture it wrong ?

TinyTartar · Nov 20, 2015

The Martini-Henry was probably the best, as it was versatile, manufacturable in high numbers, and useful in both close and open order combat.

The Winchester Rifle, being a 15 shot repeater, allowed for a tremendous rate of fire, but I question whether it was able to be manufactured as much as the M-H, not to mention the issue of spare parts and ammunition.

Anything that was not breech loading by this point and still relied on black powder muzzle loading is out of the question.

MrP · Nov 20, 2015

TinyTartar said:
The Winchester Rifle, being a 15 shot repeater, allowed for a tremendous rate of fire, but I question whether it was able to be manufactured as much as the M-H, not to mention the issue of spare parts and ammunition.

It's a fair point, but the idea that rate of fire is more important than range and accuracy wouldn't take hold for a couple of generations. This being said, if the point is to equip a mercenary band, perhaps military orthodoxy might go out the window.

yulzari · Nov 20, 2015

In the 1870s the rifle had the place of the modern machine gun in long range fire with sights settings for well over 1,000 yards by whole companies volley firing. The lever action rifles really used high power pistol rounds.

Thus, in the classic action at Plevna the Turks gave their soldiers both Martini Henrys and Winchester lever action rifles. The Martinis were engaging the Russians from 1,200 yards down to 200 yards with volley fire then swapped over to the Winchesters as the Russian moved towards 100 yards. Those Russians who had survived Martini fire for 1,000 yards of their advance were mown down by close rapid fire from the Winchesters. It was the action that confirmed the need for magazine feed to military rifles. The military rifle still needed the full power round to keep the ability to reach well over 1,000 yards.

At Plevna when some remaining Russians did reach the Turks. the Winchesters were dropped (too slow to reload) and the Martini picked up with the bayonet. The bayonet never runs out of ammunition as my instructor used to say. The Winchester is closer to the sub machine gun. A close range fast delivery of low power fire. However, without the magazine reloading of the 20th century sub machine gun. Not the answer to the 1870 problem.

The assassin's gun choice is the .22 short subsonic.

Enoki · Nov 20, 2015

The Martini Henry suffered from jamming of cartridges when hot. This typically manifested itself around 20 + rounds fired rapidly.

The rifle suffered from cartridge-extraction problems during the Zulu War, mostly due to the thin, weak, pliable foil brass cartridges used: they expanded too much into the rifle's chamber on detonation, to the point that they stuck or tore open inside the rifle's chamber. It would eventually become difficult to move the breech block and reload the rifle, substantially diminishing its effectiveness, or rendering it useless if the block could not be opened. After investigating the matter, the British Army Ordnance Department determined the fragile construction of the rolled brass cartridge, and fouling due to the black-powder propellant, were the main causes of this problem.
To correct this, the weak rolled brass cartridge was replaced by a stronger drawn brass version, and a longer loading lever was incorporated into the MK-IV to apply greater torque to operate the mechanism when fouled.[1] These later variants were more reliable in battle, although it was not until smokeless nitro powders and copper-coated bullets were tried out in these rifles in the 1920s that accuracy and 100% reliability of cartridge case extraction was finally achieved by Birmingham ammunition makers (Kynoch). English hunters on various safaris, mainly in Africa, found the Martini using a cordite charge and a 500-grain full-metal-jacketed bullet effective in stopping large dangerous game such as hippopotamus up to 80 yards away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini–Henry

Otherwise it was a decent rifle.

The Mauser on the other hand has what became the standard for bolt action rifles in terms of it's breech design.

With black powder rifles, issues of fouling, cartridge extraction, and accuracy at longer ranges is far more important than rate of fire.

100Fathoms · Nov 20, 2015

Enoki said:
The Martini Henry suffered from jamming of cartridges when hot. This typically manifested itself around 20 + rounds fired rapidly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini–Henry

Otherwise it was a decent rifle.

The Mauser on the other hand has what became the standard for bolt action rifles in terms of it's breech design.

With black powder rifles, issues of fouling, cartridge extraction, and accuracy at longer ranges is far more important than rate of fire.

Yeah the composite .450 Boxer cartridges were terrible, but when drawn brass cartridge cases replaced those Boxer cartridges and the longer operating lever was adopted to the M-H, it pretty much reached the apex of non repeating firearms. But at least an honorable mention should be made of the Russian Berdan bolt action, it had a noticeably flat trajectory for it's day that caught the attention of ordnance experts around the world.

Saphroneth · Nov 20, 2015

It's worth noting that the adoption of the breech loader altered musketry tactics, shifting the optimum away from high quality (Accurate) fire at long distance and converting it to high ROF musketry at comparatively short range.
This was partly because ammunition consumption abruptly became a concern.

In that vein, the "best" needs a little nuance.
Is it the best without considering the quality of subsidiary equipment? The best in the environment for which it was used?

I happen to think the Martini-Henry is a good competitor, but this is partly because of the predecessor (the Enfield) which was a very long range rifle - and as such we know that the British had the technology to build a rifle at this time for general service able to hit targets at half a mile.
As such, we can be relatively sure that the range on the M-H is actually fairly achievable.

The other rifle which needs to be on here is the Gras, of course - if it were the 1880s it'd be the Lebel, no contest, because poudre B...

And honourable mention to the Krag-Petersson, which could have the sh*t kicked out of it and still function.

galveston bay · Nov 20, 2015

Good enough for the Texas Rangers and the Canadian Mounties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-75_Winchester

magazine fed, perfect for cavalry and light infantry

only problem it isn't bayonet ready but then bayonets are for morale effect far more than actual combat

Besides having a rapid fire rifle with a pretty magazine has morale factor all its own

if you want to be a sniper, than this is kind of hard to beat

50-90 Sharps, which also has a legendary rifle shot associated with it (1,538 yards)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-90_Sharps

(for comparison, the modern record is 2,707 yards)

hx87 · Nov 21, 2015

Lee Sharps M1879, no contest. You even get detachable magazines! Granted, they held 5 rounds of .45-70, but even then at most ranges it would give most service rifles of the early 20th century a run for the money.

SPJ · Nov 21, 2015

It depends on what you plan on using the rifle for and what time during the 1870's you had in mind. If you want high rate of fire I'd go with the Winchester 1873 (the gun what won the west as some call it). It was chambered for 44-40, which could also be used in pistols chambered for the rounds. For range I don't know of one better than the Sharps rifle. It was first converted to govt. 50-70, and was used in some target matches with that round, and later govt. 45-70 which generally was more accurate.

If you want a bit of both I might suggest the bolt-action, tube magazine fed, Swiss Vetterli rifle. The first model was used by the military in 1869 with improvements made through the 1870s.

fhaessig · Nov 21, 2015

In the 1870s, I would say the Fusil de Marine Mle 1878 from the french naval infantry.

http://rosalielebel75.franceserv.com/fusil-kropatschek.html

yulzari · Nov 21, 2015

galveston bay said:
Good enough for the Texas Rangers and the Canadian Mounties

In an unusual context but essentially these are policemen and rarely have to engage naughty people at a distance of half a mile. Quite possibly a good choice for their needs though.

unprincipled peter · Nov 21, 2015

I know little about the actual weapons, but, it would seem to me that the opening post parameters would mean a small group of men. I suppose they could be a rag tag group, but I'm guessing that since they're looking for the best, they'll be an elite group.

Thus, standard military concerns about needing a general weapon able to be cared/for used by your run of the mill minimally trained troop can be somewhat ignored, and expensive, more complex weaponry can be in consideration. you don't need to be restricted to a weapon any lout can use and not in such quantity that expense becomes a problem. The negative wanton use of firepower with multiple shot weapons would be mitigated by an elite force who wouldn't just fire at will in an adrenaline fueled fire frenzy. Mercenaries being used to augment regular forces would need to be mindful of the supply chain, but I guess that's an issue for any weapon.

yulzari · Nov 21, 2015

The snag is the term 'battle rifle' in the initial post. That implies a military rifle whose raison d'etre is for a regular army opposing another. An armed civilian use, as in the rest of the post, would mean matching the weapon to the task. Anything from a Howdah pistol to a Gatling gun might fit assorted scenarios.If I were an assassin I would certainly not choose a battle rifle. I stick with my ideal of the Soper, It can fire as fast as you can push rounds into the breech for as long as you have ammunition. Reloading a tube magazine is a long pause when the naughty people are yards away.

edgeworthy · Nov 21, 2015

TinyTartar said:
The Martini-Henry was probably the best, as it was versatile, manufacturable in high numbers, and useful in both close and open order combat.

The Winchester Rifle, being a 15 shot repeater, allowed for a tremendous rate of fire, but I question whether it was able to be manufactured as much as the M-H, not to mention the issue of spare parts and ammunition.

Anything that was not breech loading by this point and still relied on black powder muzzle loading is out of the question.

The Westley-Richards Monkey Tail could do both ... and under the right circumstances a match for the Martini-Henry.

http://www.theexplora.com/a-curious-twist-to-the-monkey-tails-tale/

galveston bay · Nov 21, 2015

yulzari said:
In an unusual context but essentially these are policemen and rarely have to engage naughty people at a distance of half a mile. Quite possibly a good choice for their needs though.

the Texas Rangers in the 1870s were still partly a military organization (fighting bandits on the Rio Grande and Comanches further west). While the both are technically law enforcement, I am not sure I would classify either the Mounties or Rangers as mere policemen due to the operating environment (frontier)

Driftless · Nov 21, 2015

Like so many of the "Best" discussions we have, the answers go back to the purpose the particular item was used for.

For the 1870's, in addition to the big inter-country fights, there were a continuous stream of local wars, rebellions, raids, mutiny's, insurrections, what-not that in total may have burned through as much rifle ammunition as the big wars did

If you are only considering two professional armies standing across a field from each other, that's one discussion. If you are considering the many fights of that era involving a few hundred combatants, who may have arrived on-scene on horseback, canoe, via jungle trail, et al; the weapon of preference is probably different.