AHC and WI: Earlier Sexual Revolution
- Thread starter John Fredrick Parker
- Start date
I definitely think we've had this one before, but okay, lets try.
Post-1900 means its too late by-pass the invention of sexual identity as a concept, so no evolution of warrior cultures like Japan or Greece who didnt much care who you preferred to sleep with.
In the modern era I would point to birth control and cars as the major factors causing sexual liberation, so I suppose inventing them earlier would speed up the timeline on all the knock on effects. Condoms and cars already existed in 1900, so we are looking at the pill mostly. I honestly dont know whether the knowledge of the chemistry involved could have been sped up all that much.
Perhaps a cultural shift that made condom use more widespread, but short of an ASB super STD Im not sure how. I dont think AIDS would do it, you's need something that spreads super easy, but is just very annoying not deadly. If it was deadly the moral crusaders claiming divine judgement would get too much attention.
Post-1900 means its too late by-pass the invention of sexual identity as a concept, so no evolution of warrior cultures like Japan or Greece who didnt much care who you preferred to sleep with.
In the modern era I would point to birth control and cars as the major factors causing sexual liberation, so I suppose inventing them earlier would speed up the timeline on all the knock on effects. Condoms and cars already existed in 1900, so we are looking at the pill mostly. I honestly dont know whether the knowledge of the chemistry involved could have been sped up all that much.
Perhaps a cultural shift that made condom use more widespread, but short of an ASB super STD Im not sure how. I dont think AIDS would do it, you's need something that spreads super easy, but is just very annoying not deadly. If it was deadly the moral crusaders claiming divine judgement would get too much attention.
I read where, based on behavioral studies, the sexual revolution really started slowly in the 50s once syphillis could be treated by antibiotics. Before then, it was a particularly nasty disease that was genuinely feared. So, earlier antibiotics probably does the trick.
If we are focusing on the US, maybe there is a way to get the churches onside.
The rhythm method was formalized in 1930s by the Catholics, maybe have the protestants react to that.
The rhythm method was formalized in 1930s by the Catholics, maybe have the protestants react to that.
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I'm working on a 'Space:1959' role-playing campaign. Working on the timeline, I postulated that a post-WWII environment where the Cold War pendulum swung from Hot to Cold too frequently, atom bomb fear is greater, a 'Kinsey'-like report in the late forties, a Nazi Lebensborn expose(records and film) a slower armed forces downsizing due to a more effective Communist threat, a larger 'Beatnik-Intelligentsia' era of enlightenment, women not exiled from the workforce and a media sensationalist like Betty Paige being more successful and infamous.
Add the hot cars, shocking fashion, scandals, racier media of radio and TV, teenage rebellion, Korean War, Hungarian Relief Force,International Israeli Volunteer Groups in steamy communes, Sputnik fear and anything else you or I could think of and you have your sexual revolution-Leather, Lace and Hot Jets.
Dig it?
Add the hot cars, shocking fashion, scandals, racier media of radio and TV, teenage rebellion, Korean War, Hungarian Relief Force,International Israeli Volunteer Groups in steamy communes, Sputnik fear and anything else you or I could think of and you have your sexual revolution-Leather, Lace and Hot Jets.
Dig it?
The 1920s were far more sexually liberated than the pre-war era, and the films from the era tend to reflect this. I watched a film with Clara Bow, the famous "It" girl of the 1920s in one of her few talkies 1932's "Call Her Savage". The Hays Code for motion pictures came about in 1930, and was really strictly enforced after 1934, so this film was really a glimpse of what could have been.
The film deals with the following themes prohibited after 1934,
Extramarital Sex, Homosexuality, Hookers with Hearts of Gold, Indifference, Justifiable Homicide, Miscegenation, Mockery of Marriage, Murder Without Consequence, Premarital Sex, Rape, Scantily Clad Women, Suggestive Dialogue.
Particularly shocking is Clara Bow wearing a nearly see through shirt where you can clearly see her nipples. Also, they go to a bar in New York's West Village where there are anarchists and two effeminate gay men prancing around.
The film deals with the following themes prohibited after 1934,
Extramarital Sex, Homosexuality, Hookers with Hearts of Gold, Indifference, Justifiable Homicide, Miscegenation, Mockery of Marriage, Murder Without Consequence, Premarital Sex, Rape, Scantily Clad Women, Suggestive Dialogue.
Particularly shocking is Clara Bow wearing a nearly see through shirt where you can clearly see her nipples. Also, they go to a bar in New York's West Village where there are anarchists and two effeminate gay men prancing around.
The 20s is the obvious time for it post 1900. Butterflying away the Wall Street Crash, the Hays Code and WW2 might all be needed to make it stick though.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Problem is, preventing the Great Depression would likely require a PoD so early as to completely redefine the nature of the 1920's.
You need a POD before 1900 I think. Second stage feminism in the 60s didn't just come about because of access to contraception. It needed the first stage of the suffragists. You also need a major change in attitudes to education for women plus full adult suffrage pre WW1.
You need both effective and readily available treatment for venereal disease (specifically gonorrhea and syphilis) and highly reliable (>95+%) birth control that is not "remember to use" (the pill, IUDs, implants) in order to have the "sexual revolution". Together they allow women to be sexually liberated without overwhelming concerns about pregnancy or disease.
If you are talking about the move towards opening previously male fields to women, that needs the above plus more. By that I mean relatively open acceptance of women in to professions like medicine, law, engineering, etc which were "open" but barely. Additionally you need the opening of blue collar jobs for women (like construction, etc). This is actually more difficult.
For the first, you could potentially see the science for antibiotics and hormonal pregnancy control or at least IUDs in the 1920s. The others, perhaps a worse WWI or the flu epidemic being male selective, OTL it hit men and women about equally. reduce the number of men and skew ratios enough then by necessity there is a need for women in these roles.
If you are talking about the move towards opening previously male fields to women, that needs the above plus more. By that I mean relatively open acceptance of women in to professions like medicine, law, engineering, etc which were "open" but barely. Additionally you need the opening of blue collar jobs for women (like construction, etc). This is actually more difficult.
For the first, you could potentially see the science for antibiotics and hormonal pregnancy control or at least IUDs in the 1920s. The others, perhaps a worse WWI or the flu epidemic being male selective, OTL it hit men and women about equally. reduce the number of men and skew ratios enough then by necessity there is a need for women in these roles.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
So no way for the transition period to be shortened? After all, otl saw periods of anti-feminism that might be butterflied away.
Yeah, I was thinking how IUDs were being developed around this time; one such pioneering German saw his work suppressed by the Nazis.
Though such methods were given positive acceptance by Holy Office in 1846. Course, that is outside the scope of this discussion.
GiantMonkeyMan
Banned
The sexual 'revolution' of the 60's came about for several reasons, including the vast numbers of women who got jobs outside of the 'traditional' jobs for women such as domestic work. You could have a far greater push for women workers in munitions factories and the like during the first world war, which could have a greater impact during the 1920's period. Maybe women get the vote sooner in the UK to emulate New Zealand and Australia, have a greater impact on the workforce in the war period and emerge from the war demanding other rights, marriage and divorce rights etc, with social and sexual movements emerging as part of the movement.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
This happened in WWII, before they were pushed out of the workforce again after the war; if the latter hadn't happened (as much), would that, in itself, push up the sexual revolution a decade or so?
Andre27
Banned
Here's some info on the subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_sexuality
I'm not sure if it is mentioned in the wiki, but sexual liberty and behaviour tends to go through cycles of liberal and conservative (as they are viewed today).
The liberal periods tend to happen during the aftermath of armed conflicts when the economy picks up again. Prime example of this is the roaring 20's.
While this may differ between countries i sense that currently people tend to get a bit more conservative regarding sexual liberties.
Therefore if the "sexual revolution" of the 50's and 60's had happened earlier (perhaps due to earlier end of WW2) then i think the conservative period would have gotten a strong foothold by now.
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Penicillin could have been discovered decades (if not centuries) before than in OTL. The fungus was known by, IIRC, Indian healers for centuries, but it was likely mixed along plenty of other herbs and cures which didn't work.
What I don't know is if that would have sped up the development of antibiotics, which are required to cure syphilis.
In the cultural front, I think the Hays Code can be butterflied away this way: it gets implement during 1920s, in the silent era. The USA then gets invaded by foreign, almost soft porn, films which aren't subject to the Hays Code - and at this point there is no language barrier. Fearing they'll loose a significant market share, the American Studios scratch the Hays Code. Alternately (or on top of this), the SCOTUS rules that movies are protected by the First Amendment, so there is no fear of a State imposed censorship to promote the implementation of an ATL Hays Code.
Condoms already existed (and they protect against Syphilis) but they aren't the sort of contraceptives of which women have full control.
What I don't know is if that would have sped up the development of antibiotics, which are required to cure syphilis.
In the cultural front, I think the Hays Code can be butterflied away this way: it gets implement during 1920s, in the silent era. The USA then gets invaded by foreign, almost soft porn, films which aren't subject to the Hays Code - and at this point there is no language barrier. Fearing they'll loose a significant market share, the American Studios scratch the Hays Code. Alternately (or on top of this), the SCOTUS rules that movies are protected by the First Amendment, so there is no fear of a State imposed censorship to promote the implementation of an ATL Hays Code.
Condoms already existed (and they protect against Syphilis) but they aren't the sort of contraceptives of which women have full control.
Andre27
Banned
It may differ between countries or even regions.
From your description you're from LA which is overall probably pretty liberal.
Do you think the same liberal attitude exists in e.g. Houston or "Small town Montana".
Where i live in the Netherlands, in the vicinity of Amsterdam, the general opinion is live and let live. However, i notice that public opinions regarding homosexuality and sexual escapades with less than positive views towards those is becoming more common.
The change is more than one might expect from the slowly changing demographic. Part may be that people have grown tired of the constant activism of the LGBT community, but personally i believe it is merely following the natural cycle from conservative to liberal and back to conservative.
Thus i stand by my previous opinion: IF the sexual revolution had started earlier in the 20th century then IMO it'd be likely that most societies would be more "conservative" today.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Meh, you might have a point. But even in the red states, for example, things like opposition to gay marriage or discrimination against lgbt has gone down in the past dozen years or so, not up.
There are a lot of good answers here. I think the effects of WW1 and WW2 had on religion and philosophy are huge. The idea that morals were something we can deliberate other than unquestionable traditions written in stone is what in my mind undid everything. There are plenty of societies today (specifically in Asia) that have condoms, abortion, cars, antibiotics, and the pill where there isn't a sexual revolution specifically because they have no caved in to post-modernism and they hold up their traditional morals.
We also have the Middle East where morals and their enforcement specifically prevent a sexual revolution.
So, ultimately it is philosophical, and WW1 and 2 were likely the catalysts that rocked the west to change their worldviews for good. Simply have a WW1 earlier, a WW2, and a nucelar WW3 and easily have a much worse world and earlier sexual revolution.
We also have the Middle East where morals and their enforcement specifically prevent a sexual revolution.
So, ultimately it is philosophical, and WW1 and 2 were likely the catalysts that rocked the west to change their worldviews for good. Simply have a WW1 earlier, a WW2, and a nucelar WW3 and easily have a much worse world and earlier sexual revolution.