WI: Star Wars just an obscure 1977 film

[KJM]

What would have to happen for Star Wars (minus the "Episode IV" title) to be a one-shot movie that never amounts to anything? What would be the effects of that?

[RMG]

Fewer heartbroken geeks in 1999?

[Kuralyov]

SDI gets called...Battlestar Galactica?

[NapoleonXIV]

Star Wars started as an "underground" hit. It was released with fairly little publicity and its popularity was a grassroots phenomena spread by word of mouth, mainly among college students.
If the Arts crowd had got to it earlier, it might have been doomed forever. With Rex Reed comparing it to Bergman people would have stayed away in droves.
It would be seen as a minor hiccup in the career of a still fairly successful filmaker, but nowhere near as successful as in OTL. The Indiana Jones films (done by Spielberg and Cronenberg) would be seen as the major cultural statement of the 80's. The stories of Frank Buck and Ernest Thompson Seton would enjoy a revival and be endlessly imitated. A seemingly insane South African zookeeper would have a major hit tv show where he handled the most poisonous snakes and dangerous animals with little protection.
SF stories (except for the ST series) would continue to languish in remainder bins until the first of Turtledove's screen adaptations revive the genre with megahits in the early 1990's.

[MattRice]

I think something else would have come along... The audiences were ready for something like 'StarWars'. Someone would have come up with a ground breaking formula...

And just think, without StarWars there probably wouldn't have been an 'Alien' either.....

[Xen]

Star Wars started as an "underground" hit. It was released with fairly little publicity and its popularity was a grassroots phenomena spread by word of mouth, mainly among college students.
If the Arts crowd had got to it earlier, it might have been doomed forever. With Rex Reed comparing it to Bergman people would have stayed away in droves.
It would be seen as a minor hiccup in the career of a still fairly successful filmaker, but nowhere near as successful as in OTL. The Indiana Jones films (done by Spielberg and Cronenberg) would be seen as the major cultural statement of the 80's. The stories of Frank Buck and Ernest Thompson Seton would enjoy a revival and be endlessly imitated. A seemingly insane South African zookeeper would have a major hit tv show where he handled the most poisonous snakes and dangerous animals with little protection.
SF stories (except for the ST series) would continue to languish in remainder bins until the first of Turtledove's screen adaptations revive the genre with megahits in the early 1990's.

Would Star Trek still get the movie deals? I seem to remember reading Leonard Nimoy saying the studio was very jealous of the success of Star Wars and was looking to come up with a sci-fi movie of its own when they were reminded they still had the rights to Star Trek.

You know its too bad George Lucas has lost touch with the original SW story and feel and Gene Rodenberry died. It would have been awesome for those two to collaborate in writing a SW meets ST movie. Nevermind Star Trek takes place in the future and Star Wars takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

[MattRice]

Would Star Trek still get the movie deals? I seem to remember reading Leonard Nimoy saying the studio was very jealous of the success of Star Wars and was looking to come up with a sci-fi movie of its own when they were reminded they still had the rights to Star Trek.

You know its too bad George Lucas has lost touch with the original SW story and feel and Gene Rodenberry died. It would have been awesome for those two to collaborate in writing a SW meets ST movie. Nevermind Star Trek takes place in the future and Star Wars takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.


How did u guys rate that first ST film? I think i fell asleep in the cinema....

[Xen]

I am not a big fan of the OT, Im more of Next Generation fan, and yes I do think Picard is superiour to Kirk, especially in acting. "Mr.......Spock.......theres something on the wing, some......thing."


"Captain that is illogical the enterprise doesnt have wings."

[MattRice]

I am not a big fan of the OT, Im more of Next Generation fan, and yes I do think Picard is superiour to Kirk, especially in acting. "Mr.......Spock.......theres something on the wing, some......thing."


"Captain that is illogical the enterprise doesnt have wings."



We've...GOT....to get wings...

[Gedca]

We've...GOT....to get wings...
Well it was a good movie; just very, very boring at times.

Without Star Wars, then Star Trek would finally take it's true place as the best sci-fi series ever.

[zoomar]

Back to the original question, I doubt that the whole notion of the big-budget science fiction/fantasy film as a staple of Hollywood would ever have developed. Before SW, "big budget" SF films like Planet of the Apes, Soylent Green, Logans Run, 2001,etc., all had to have "serious" philosophical or topical issues...only small "B" movies were done just for fun. SF was considered a big risk for major studios. Without SW there would be no Star Trek movies (at least not done to the technical level they were in OTL), no Terminators, Predators, Aliens, ID4s, - or for that matter, probably no new Star Trek TV series and others, like B5. The model for the"Big Budget" SF movie might have been "Close Encounters", leading to more "realistic" psychodrama SF, not simple fantasy stuff.

Lucas cleverly tapped into an aching need among the American publc for optimistic, "patriotic", morally unambiguous action movies...in essence he made the Lord of the Rings before Hollywood was ready for it and set the stage for the real LOTR thirty years later.

[Michael]

actually the original terminator was made on the cheap. Without starwars special effects would not be anywhere near the level they arre at now and millions of males wouldn't be doing the lightsaber sound whenever they grab a pole or stick

[zoomar]

zhoooooooov!

[Count Dearborn]

None of these TV shows would have ever been made:
Battlestar Galactica (both versions)
Star Trek: TNG
Star Trek: DS9
Star Trek: Voyager
Star Trek: Enterprise
Andromeda
Babylon 5

[Mr_ Bondoc]

-You lose Harrison Ford as a leading man in Hollywood. This was certainly the case when you consider the fact that it took The Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark to give Harrison Ford the "marquee power" to be considered seriously as an actor (Remember Blade Runner and Mosquito Coast came after the two films). According to his biographies, he was planning to set up shop as a carpenter or a rancher in Wyoming...

- You lose Kevin Smith...This actually has some major influences. Besides the obvious Clerks references, it was Miramax Studios that became a legitimate independent film distributor after Kevin Smith had his initial success with the movie Clerks. The other films that it had distributed that year failed commercially. Without the success of Miramax, you certainly wouldn't have the strong independent film movement of the 1990s...

-You also lose Carrie Fisher...At the time Carrie Fisher, the daughter of Debbie Reynolds and Eddie Fisher was combatting a major substance abuse problem (see Postcards From The Edge ). Without the steady work of the Star Wars trilogy, she probably would have died an anonymous death of cocaine or heroin with friend John Belushi...

[Leej]

Not sure if I'm thinking of empire strikes back here but I know one of them was always destined to be a big hit. Lucas invented the modern phenomena of film merchandicing, its thanks to star wars that action figures are the size they are, prior to SW they were all Action Man sized.

If it didn't happen though.... Star Trek Phase 2 gets made as a actual TV series and not a bunch of films?

[Mike Stearns]

None of these TV shows would have ever been made:
Battlestar Galactica (both versions)
Star Trek: TNG
Star Trek: DS9
Star Trek: Voyager
Star Trek: Enterprise
Andromeda
Babylon 5

You're probably right and I think I'd add Stargate to that list since its essentially Star Trek but with a teleportation device instead of a starship.

[Romulus Augustulus]

You can probably say goodbye to the whole Gundam franchise as well...and with that quite a whole lot else as well. Will ripple effects have implications in global politics, by the way?

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Well, there were plans to make a Star Trek TV movie in the early 1970's that, due to disputes with writers, the executives at Paramount, and Rodenberry, never came of anything. Star Trek: Phase II would still have appeared in 1977, but without Star Wars, it's hard to tell if ST:TMP would be made after Paramount got cold feet on the whole "new fourth network" idea, of which ST:P2 would've been the flagship show. However, even without Star Wars, Star Trek would still have a large fan base that could be tapped in to.

Though if Close Encounters of the Third Kind gets made, the odds would look better.

[Count Dearborn]

Not sure if I'm thinking of empire strikes back here but I know one of them was always destined to be a big hit. Lucas invented the modern phenomena of film merchandicing, its thanks to star wars that action figures are the size they are, prior to SW they were all Action Man sized.

If it didn't happen though.... Star Trek Phase 2 gets made as a actual TV series and not a bunch of films?

Sorry to say he didn't, but he did refine it. The original Planet of the Apes movie series was the first franchise with the type of media tie-ins that we see today.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

How about these ideas:

- First, considering Ronald Reagan was actor of the 1930s and 1940s, the Strategic Defense Intiative (SDI) would probably be named after one of the old serials of a "more innocent time" (e.g. "Buck Rogers" or "Flash Gordon")

-Second, you would not see the creation of the series Battlestar Galactica (ABC-TV), Buck Rogers In the 25th Century (NBC-TV), or Disney's film The Black Hole . All of which were created to cash in on the "Star Wars phenomena". For Disney this is especially important since the movie The Black Hole flopped so badly at the box-office it nearly bankrupted the live-action film department of Disney Studios before Michael Eisner came in 1983. For Lorne Greene, this important because the series destroyed any credibility the actor had in the industry (especially after Galactica 1980 ). For Dirk Benedict, "aka Faceman/ Starbuck", the Canadian actor wouldn't have had the chance to meet Stephen J. Cannell for for the creation of The A-Team (NBC-TV) .

-Third, Bill Murray would have had to stay on Saturday Night Live while he waits for a big hit idea. Unfortunately his "Lounge Club Singer" act wouldn't have been as successful with either "Jaws" or "Close Encounters of the Third Kind". Dan Akroyd may suddenly take the Murray roles in Lost In Translation and Charlie's Angels ....

[edvader]

Would no SW have affected Japanese Anime films-especially Akira?Would that film which supposedly started making anime popular have done better?Do not think so.Thought Gundam Wing was Japanese and had a manga-comic version.

[luakel]

- First, considering Ronald Reagan was actor of the 1930s and 1940s, the Strategic Defense Intiative (SDI) would probably be named after one of the old serials of a "more innocent time" (e.g. "Buck Rogers" or "Flash Gordon")

That's a nice idea... :D

[Mr_ Bondoc]

-Without the eventual creation of Empire Strikes Back starring Billy Dee Williams, science fiction will be seen by more people as a "white-man's" genre and see Lt. Uhura on Star Trek as a mere exception to the role.

-Politically, another problem is that without the Star Wars prequels, the commentary against the Bush "War on Terror" would have been limited to episodes of Entertainment Tonight and Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 . Consider the fact that 4 years after 9/11, the only veiled criticisms to the Bush policies have been the prequels.

-Another political change would be a lowered understanding of Eastern philosophies such as Zen Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism. This in turn means a greater chance for hostility against South Asians and Asian-Americans in the aftermath of 9/11. Just remember, after 9/11, it was also Asian-American groups that were the targets of "hate crimes".

-Luakel-Thanks for the response!!

[Torqumada]

Well it was a good movie; just very, very boring at times.

Without Star Wars, then Star Trek would finally take it's true place as the best sci-fi series ever.

Right behind Dr Who.

Torqumada

[Torqumada]

Think about the technology. Star Wars was the first movie that used computer controlled cameras to create the opitcal effects. If Star Wars is a minor hit, then the technology it introduced for Special Effects will not be adopted as easily and that could affect some other movies down the line.

Torqumada

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Right behind Dr Who.

Torqumada
Why not both? There's plenty of room at the top.

[zoomar]

I tend to that that without Star Wars, science fiction in cinema would have tended to stay in one of two places: (1) lots of low budget and high action B-movies featuring poor special effects, poorly-known actors, action, monsters, and other drive-in-theatre staples, or (2) a relatively few more edgy, artsy, and high-quality films done by famous directors - often With A Point To Make. Star Wars made possible the merger of B-movie simplicity with big-budget qualities. Lucas very likely would have gone back to smaller and/or more edgy films himself. Spielberg's filmography might have remained largely unchanged (Close Encounters is a near contemporary of Star Wars and presumably would still be a success) but his films always came closer to using SF to tell a bigger human story, which makes them not nearly as radical. With Spielberg's success, SF would still become more prevalent, but I wonder if the "space opera" like Star Wars and Star Trek would have. Also, what Lucas's films gave us was a total absence of cinema cynicism - a welcome relief after the early 1970's angst which captivated Hollywood. I suspect that without Star War's influence, even Speilberg might have painted in a darker and more muted palette.

[Torqumada]

Zoomar, for the most aprt, that is still the perception of Sci-fi movies. Remember that Star Wars lost out to Annie Hall for Best Picture that year. Can you name the number of Sci-fi/Fantasy/Horror films that have won non technical Oscars and instead have won for Best Film, Actor etc..? The number is very small, probably less than a handful with LOTR being the most recent. Star Wars didn't change this perception in terms of artistry. However, it did prove that the genre is good for money making, which is the way it is.

FYI: I just took a quick look at the Oscar winners for the last 35 years. Of the Big 6 Oscar Awards (Best Picture, Best Actor/Actress, Best Supporting Actor/Actress, Best Director) only 7 Oscars have been given out to Sci-Fi, Fantasy or Horror Pictures. 4 of those have gone to Silence of the Lambs, 2 to LOTR: Return of the King, and 1 to Cocoon. That is 7 awards out of 210 or less than 3% of the total. Now we all know that the LOTR series won lots of technical awards, as did the original Star Wars triology and others, but Hollywood only looks at "serious" movies when the real awards come around.

Torqumada

[zoomar]

Torq, I didn't mean to say that Star Wars created critically-acclaimed SF, just created a niche for better-looking and much more lucrative B-movies (like the Indiana Jones films, the Back to the Futures, and the Mummy movies). I do think, however, that Star Wars stopped the "Five Easy Pieces" syndrome in its tracks, resurrecting the morally simple, entertaining, and feel-good film as a major respectable hollywood staple (including more than a few Oscar winners).

[Major Major]

If it didn't happen though.... Star Trek Phase 2 gets made as a actual TV series and not a bunch of films?

Lucas had a room at the 1976 World Science Fiction Convention in Kansas City with production stills from the film and even had Mark Hamill make appearances.
The convention had a theme of "SF and the Arts" and the film program had a number of obscure fifties and earlier SF movies.
Moreover, there had been some concern about the WorldCons becoming overrun by Star Trek fans, and the convention committee decided not to have any Star Trek programming in order to not attract them.
So, if Lucas happens to come away with the feeling that the movie is Not As Good As They Usta Make 'Em Back Then, that no one will come (no Trek fans to enthuse over it), and so on, the film may be held back for Christmas 1977, and then as the man said, sink.

Now Paramount was evaluating its options. The stories differ; some say that the Star Trek Phase II series was their goal, others that they did indeed want to do a movie but held off because Star Wars was such a big hit.

If we assume that there was a Phase II series, then it is possible that series like NextGen, DS9, etc. might still be made, though not exactly like those. As for blockbuster movies, perhaps Tom Selleck's Indiana Jones kicks off a whole string of historical action heroes.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Major Major- There are some quick changes that might be made to the ATL, for instance, with George Lucas absent at the Worldcon conventions in 1977, 1981 you have great deal of comic book writers who decide not to go to the conventions. Consider the fact that it wasn't until Stan Lee and Issac Asimov visited the Worldcon comic book conventions in 1977, was the hobby taken seriously. Jack "the King" Kirby was actually thinking of retiring from the industry and taking up writing. As such, try to imagine an ATL wherein comic book collecting is still a "weird" hobby and comic books are considered low art. Some quick results are an abrupt absence of Michael Chabon and his book The Adventures of Kavalier and Clay and Johnathan Lethem's The Fortress of Solitude .

Another item that could be changed is televison network history. The initial reason for the creation of Star Trek: Phase II was a planned launch of a fourth television network. Try to imagine an ATL wherein Brandon Tartikoff, the programming whiz behind Hill Street Blues to Cheers , instead of becoming head of NBC-TV in 1979, decides tohelp form the fledling Paramount Television Network (PTN-TN). In 1984, a failing NBC-TV network is acquired by Michael Eisner, who decides to head the firm rather than taking over the failing Disney Corp. under Roy Disney. In this ATL scenario there is certainly no Disneyland Europe or Disneyland Tokyo.

[Major Major]

Consider the fact that it wasn't until Stan Lee and Issac Asimov visited the Worldcon comic book conventions in 1977, was the hobby taken seriously.

Are you sure of this? I find it hard to believe that the editor of Marvel Comics would ignore comic book fandom.

And I checked the relevant volume of Asimov's autobiography (In Joy Still Felt) and he doesn't mention going to a comic book convention at all.

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Are you sure of this? I find it hard to believe that the editor of Marvel Comics would ignore comic book fandom.

And I checked the relevant volume of Asimov's autobiography (In Joy Still Felt) and he doesn't mention going to a comic book convention at all.

In Stan Lee's autobiography, Excelsior , you have Stan Lee taking credit for the media operation and marketing of comic-book coonventions starting in 1977. While he had always been the lead writer and editor of Marvel Comics at the time, remember that comic books were considered low art and were often shunned. It wasn't until Stan Lee began heavily promoiting the conventions that comic-books moved into a collectible item. For more information check out :

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684873052/103-8252378-0526214?v=glance

Then again, Stan Lee is known to have been someone who was into self-marketing...LOL