U.S. Navy SEALs Vs. British SAS

[Anaxagoras]

In a battle between a U.S. Navy SEAL tema (i.e. 120 men) against a comparatively-sized force of British SAS, who would emerge the victor? Both are armed and equipped in their respective fashion and the battle takes place in... well, wherever.

[Captain America]

US Seals would win

[Puget Sound]

This sounds like a Clive Cussler novel I read that had this same situation (I can't remember the title, through).

[Anaxagoras]

This sounds like a Clive Cussler novel I read that had this same situation (I can't remember the title, through).

Night Probe. One of his best works, in my opinion.

[Hannibal.Caesar]

Wrong forum for something like this ... put it in chat, I suppose.

In any case, I think it's extremely difficult to compare special operations groups in an objective way. Every team has its own way of doing things, not to mention the distinct reasons that each exist. The SEALs, the SAS, Sayeret Matkal, GIS, Marine Recon, GIGN, USAF Pararescue, the USCG AST teams, etc. all have a particular reason why they were created and often have organization-specific ways of ingress, operations, and egress. IMHO you can't make blanket assumptions like, "the SEALs are better than the SAS!" unless you have insider knowledge of how they do things. If that was the case, chances are you wouldn't be posting here.

[The Dean]

The SAS would correctly identify the SEAL team and avoiding discovery avert the conflict. ;)

[EmptyOne]

The SAS would correctly identify the SEAL team and avoiding discovery avert the conflict. ;)
Personally, I think they'd correctly identify each other and proceed to cooperatively take over a small, under-militarized nation ... like Canada.

[Krall]

Wrong forum for something like this ... put it in chat, I suppose.

In any case, I think it's extremely difficult to compare special operations groups in an objective way. Every team has its own way of doing things, not to mention the distinct reasons that each exist. The SEALs, the SAS, Sayeret Matkal, GIS, Marine Recon, GIGN, USAF Pararescue, the USCG AST teams, etc. all have a particular reason why they were created and often have organization-specific ways of ingress, operations, and egress. IMHO you can't make blanket assumptions like, "the SEALs are better than the SAS!" unless you have insider knowledge of how they do things. If that was the case, chances are you wouldn't be posting here.

Agreed, they're meant for different sorts of missions. A better 'fight' would be between Delta Force and the SAS, since Delta Force is based off the SAS and is meant for the same type of missions.

[Chris]

Natually, I voted for Britain;)

More seriously, as others have pointed out, what reason do they have to fight? I don't mean a war - that's assumed by the OP - but the situation; they're not matched.

Chris

[The Dean]

Personally, I think they'd correctly identify each other and proceed to cooperatively take over a small, under-militarized nation ... like Canada.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Anaxagoras]

More seriously, as others have pointed out, what reason do they have to fight? I don't mean a war - that's assumed by the OP - but the situation; they're not matched.

Quit ruining my fun!

[Shimbo]

This sounds like a Clive Cussler novel I read that had this same situation (I can't remember the title, through).

As noted, that was Night Probe. It was Royal Marines (and a character who is supposed to be James Bond) vs US Marines (and Dirk Pitt) IIRC.

It is one of Clive Cussler's better works IMO.

It's also rubbish IMO. As it says on Wikipedia "Criticism (of the book) revolves around the primary plot point, the sale of Canada to the United States by Great Britain. The book fails to reconcile the fact that at the time of the (supposed) Treaty, Canada was a British Dominion with its own government, and as a result would not have been in a position where it could have been sold to the USA by Great Britain."

Which is all a bit OT.:p

IMO the SAS and SEALs would never have some kind of large scale stand up fight (even given the obvious problem of why) because large scale stand up fights are not their role.

Also the SBS is the British equivalent to the SEALs anyway. Delta Force is the SAS equivalent IIRC.

Something like US Marines vs Royal Marines or US paratroopers vs British paratroopers would be a better comparison (if you like that sort of thing).

BTW this is an interesting article on the differences between US and British SF as demonstrated in Iraq: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2461368.ece

[Hawkeye]

The SEALs will kick ass.

[Hannibal.Caesar]

Quit ruining my fun!

Sorry, but that's something that you're going to have to live with on this forum. People are going to relentlessly overanalyze your post until it dies. It's just the way it is.

[The Dean]

The SEALs will kick ass.

Yea, each others, while the SAS piss themselves laughing. :p

[Fellatio Nelson]

US Seals would win



The SEALs will kick ass.


These statements convince me far more than documentary evidence ever could.

[Doctor What]

Night Probe. One of his best works, in my opinion.

Night Probe. Best Work.

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

~looks suspiciously at Anaxagoras~

Glue is NOT for sniffing....

These statements convince me far more than documentary evidence ever could.

Shush Fell--you're ruining the Americans' wank-fun again...

[Berra]

Thande will kill both with accidental toxic spill. :p

[kojak]

It goes against my very British essence to say: the SEALs would win, I guess. As far as I know, the SAS isn't geared towards or trained for large scale engagements such as this, whilst the SEALs are.

[Hannibal.Caesar]

It goes against my very British essence to say: the SEALs would win, I guess. As far as I know, the SAS isn't geared towards or trained for large scale engagements such as this, whilst the SEALs are.

AFAIK the SEALs aren't either. As far as I'm concerned part of the entire mission of special operations is to avoid large-scale engagements.

[boredatwork]

The only way these two groups would have this much of their folks together in one place to have a fight in the first place would be some sort of ATL victory ceremony over someone or another.

In which case, we're not talking about an SF operation, with 'snooping and pooping' and tactical deployment of super spiffy hardware and cwazy wabbit training, but about some dimwit barbrawl gone haywire, which lasts until the MPs show up.

So who loses: everybody (especially the bar).

[Wanderlust]

I also hate to say this, but it'd probably be the Seals; The SAS are good because they know how to pick their fights, plan meticulously, and make do with the equipment they have (and they are still British military, so chances are the 40mm grenades have been cut back this week, etc). The US SEALs, golden boys of the yanks as they are, can probably call upon all kinds of gunships and air support and flashy satellite guided microwave-designated gas mark 5 overengineered crap to help them out.

Edit: Gah x_X

[BillHicksRules]

This has to be up for an award for Most Ill-conceived Thread.

Neither the SEALs nor the SAS would ever possibly fight in the numbers in question since that is simply light infantry territory.

If they have to fight in this way then chances are the SAS edge since all members of the SAS have previously undergone standard British Army training for whatever Regiment they came from whereas SEALs are USN volunteers with likely no infantry training whatsoever.

Therefore this is not a comment on SAS training and members and SEAL training and members but their pre-SAS/SEAL backgrounds which neatly highlights why this is such a moronic thread

Cheers

BHR

[Anaxagoras]

This has to be up for an award for Most Ill-conceived Thread.

I would have thought my "Jesus vs. Plato In a Boxing Match" thread would have won that award.

Neither the SEALs nor the SAS would ever possibly fight in the numbers in question since that is simply light infantry territory.

If they have to fight in this way then chances are the SAS edge since all members of the SAS have previously undergone standard British Army training for whatever Regiment they came from whereas SEALs are USN volunteers with likely no infantry training whatsoever.

Therefore this is not a comment on SAS training and members and SEAL training and members but their pre-SAS/SEAL backgrounds which neatly highlights why this is such a moronic thread

I never said *how* they fight, did I?

[DMA]

Was it Delta Force or the SEALs that Chuck Norris was a member of? If it was the SEALs, then obviously the SEALs kick the crap out of the SAS... ;)

[Sargon]

Was it Delta Force or the SEALs that Chuck Norris was a member of? If it was the SEALs, then obviously the SEALs kick the crap out of the SAS... ;)

Delta Force IIRC. It was Steven Seagal in the SEALs. ;)


Sargon

[CalBear]

I would predict that they would beat each other senseless with pillows tripping over the roughly 8,000 beer bottles required to get them to participate in such stupidity.

[KieronAntony]

Ah Steven Segal was one of the SEALS eh? Well I voted for the SAS as I'm British and couldn't care less, but this puts everything into perspective, with the power of Chi the SAS have no chance. Hmmm they should make this into a film. Starring... :p

[DMA]

Delta Force IIRC. It was Steven Seagal in the SEALs. ;)


Sargon


Oh well the SAS creams them then...

[Wanderlust]

Ah Steven Segal was one of the SEALS eh? Well I voted for the SAS as I'm British and couldn't care less, but this puts everything into perspective, with the power of Chi the SAS have no chance. Hmmm they should make this into a film. Starring... :p

Sean Bean. He'd 'ave 'em all!

[Flocculencio]

The only way these two groups would have this much of their folks together in one place to have a fight in the first place would be some sort of ATL victory ceremony over someone or another.

In which case, we're not talking about an SF operation, with 'snooping and pooping' and tactical deployment of super spiffy hardware and cwazy wabbit training, but about some dimwit barbrawl gone haywire, which lasts until the MPs show up.

So who loses: everybody (especially the bar).

If it's a bar brawl, the SAS would probably win. This is because AFAIK the rank and file of the British Army is still drawn from the urban underclass, in accordance with age old tradition. They are the iron hard sweepings of the street with no redeemable qualities except the ability to fight. The SAS are recruited from the hardest men in this bearpit.

The US Army, however, recruits people who in many cases want to improve themselves and see the Armed Forces as a way of doing this. US specops troops are recruited from the hardest among this relatively civilised bunch.

The raw material tells the whole story- the SAS is more likely to have a greater proportion of recruits who have been glassing people in bar brawls since the age of 12.

[Flocculencio]

Sean Bean. He'd 'ave 'em all!

Rifles- to me! Stand fast, South Essex!

Actually, hell, in a bar fight I'd say Wellington's Peninsular Army takes all comers. Helped by the fact that Sharpe would quite happily bring a cannon to a bar brawl, if possible.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i31/costumersguide/reused/sharpe.jpg

No. Nothing phallic here at all...

[Wanderlust]

Don't forget Harper, big barrel-chested oirishman bringing up the rear as only he can (with a seven-barrel volleygun by Mr Nock of London) :)

[Flocculencio]

Don't forget Harper, big barrel-chested oirishman bringing up the rear as only he can (with a seven-barrel volleygun by Mr Nock of London) :)

And since all Americans believe Oirishmen have the racial attribute +7 Donnybrook the SEALs'd probably run screaming from him.

Well either that or they'd refuse to believe he was Oirish since he's got black hair.

It would be amusing to read a Sharpe novel written in the style of Tom Clancy.

Sharpe and Harper crouched in the sand beneath the Mad Mullah's hideout.

"Aren't we 'bout a century too early for Mad Mullah's an' all then?" asked Patrick.

Sharpe responded with only a curt nod. Since his famed service to the Crown in the Peninsula, he had drifted from mercenary job to mercenary job. Now, recruited by the United States he was ready to kill Muslims in the name of Freedom(tm). He patted the barrel of his American rifle, three feet of precision engineered, rifle-bored steel.

"Huzzah and tally-ho," shouted a caricatured British officer in the distance. Sharpe shook his head. Previously he'd had no time for such stereotypical nobs, generally portrayed as wastes of both time and space but since the change in writer, Sharpe found that the British upper classes were now portrayed with a mixture of condescension and inaccurate semi-Anglophilia.

Suddenly, the seven barrels of Harper's Nock gun pressed into his back.

"Aha!" snarled Harper, "Little did ye know that I was with the IRA all along! I'm going to assassinate the Queen when she comes to inspect the siege of the Mad Mullah's stronghold."

"Oh no," came the voice of the aforementioned officer, "The inexplicable and illogical war against Japan and India (wtf?) has taken a turn for the worse. It seems that one of the Mikado's subjects has crashed a hot air balloon into the American Capitol!"

"Was it intentional," asked someone

"Of course not- the little yellow slant eye was just too short sighted to see where he was going. He was shot for his own good of course."

"Quite right."

Sharpe sighed. It was going to be a long and somewhat illogical day.

OK, so that wasn't really a Tom Clancy pastiche, but I think I've sort of distilled the essence of his ouvre.

[Riain]

AFAIK SEALs don't have the best reputation among other, especially US, SF units. I believe Delta derisively refers to them as 'real studs' because they pull stunts like overloading themsleves for a night-time helo drop into the sea just to prove they can do it and then drowning because, well, they call it overloading for a reason. (Grenada 1983)

So I'd have to go with the SAS.

[Doctor What]

OK, so that wasn't really a Tom Clancy pastiche, but I think I've sort of distilled the essence of his ouvre.

You needed to devote another 300 words or so to the technical aspects of his gun but otherwise a rather good attempt.

[Flocculencio]

You needed to devote another 300 words or so to the technical aspects of his gun but otherwise a rather good attempt.

I didn't have it in me to spend three paragraphs describing a flintlock rifle wanktastically :D

[Doctor What]

I didn't have it in me to spend three paragraphs describing a flintlock rifle wanktastically :D

Bah! And you call yourself an ah.commer! I avert my gaze from you in disgust, Oh Goatist Caliph!

[Flocculencio]

AFAIK SEALs don't have the best reputation among other, especially US, SF units. I believe Delta derisively refers to them as 'real studs' because they pull stunts like overloading themsleves for a night-time helo drop into the sea just to prove they can do it and then drowning because, well, they call it overloading for a reason. (Grenada 1983)

Are you sure that's reliable information. I'd be surprised to find out a spec ops force was that unprofessional- I realize the gung-ho attitude is endemic in much of the US military but one would think that kind of shit would be weeded out in selection for elite forces.

[Flocculencio]

Bah! And you call yourself an ah.commer! I avert my gaze from you in disgust, Oh Goatist Caliph!

You know that my work discards accuracy in favour of plot wherever possible!

[NCW]

The raw material tells the whole story- the SAS is more likely to have a greater proportion of recruits who have been glassing people in bar brawls since the age of 12.

And of course, thanks to British Licensing laws (compared to US ones), the SAS have more experience of being in bars - and more experience in holding their drink.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Riain]

Flocc, I can only repeat what I've read in a number of scattered sources. I did hear one Aussie clearence diver who was in Iraq in 1991 say that the SEALs methods didn't impress him even if their equipment did.

That said, I'm sure they do a great job, but at the most elite level I don't think they're the best is all.

[The Dean]

Rifles- to me! Stand fast, South Essex!
Actually, hell, in a bar fight I'd say Wellington's Peninsular Army takes all comers. Helped by the fact that Sharpe would quite happily bring a cannon to a bar brawl, if possible.

If we are going to talk about past generations then the guys from 1914-18 would in all likelihood would undoubtedly be near the top of the barroom brawl league and so come to that would the archers of the 100 year war.

[RPW@Cy]

If we are going to talk about past generations then the guys from 1914-18 would in all likelihood would undoubtedly be near the top of the barroom brawl league and so come to that would the archers of the 100 year war.

The archers would be at the top I'd say - the Old Contemptibles and other relatively recent sorts would have the enthusiasm, but being able to use a 150 lb draw weight longbow properly requires *serious* upper body strength. Those guys would be able to punch your face through the back of your skull...

[Jason]

SAS delay SEALS until the Gurkhas arrive and let them take over...

...following day there is a hell of a lot of cheap American pork on sale at the local butchers...

[Mr J]

If we are going to talk about past generations then the guys from 1914-18 would in all likelihood would undoubtedly be near the top of the barroom brawl league and so come to that would the archers of the 100 year war.
Better make that the Australian guys from WWI. :D

[The Dean]

So now the thread is successfully hijacked to a barroom brawl league, RESULT!:cool:

Better make that the Australian guys from WWI. :D

I wouldn't argue with that.:eek:

The archers would be at the top I'd say - the Old Contemptibles and other relatively recent sorts would have the enthusiasm, but being able to use a 150 lb draw weight longbow properly requires *serious* upper body strength. Those guys would be able to punch your face through the back of your skull...

or that.:cool:

[Xenos]

This is a very difficult one. The SAS have never faced an emeny special forces unit equivelent to the US Navy Seals. But my money would be on the SAS because they are more experienced and have a significantly higher ratio of successes to failures compared to US special forces.
Also, most nations regard the SAS as the world's most elite special forces unit.

[MUC]

In a battle between a U.S. Navy SEAL tema (i.e. 120 men) against a comparatively-sized force of British SAS, who would emerge the victor? Both are armed and equipped in their respective fashion and the battle takes place in... well, wherever.


A US Navy Seal Team is 120 man-strong?

[CalBear]

A US Navy Seal Team is 120 man-strong?

SEAL teams operate as boat crews (7 men, the number that will fit into a semi rigid inflatable raft), normally in pairs (14 men) depending on the mission. A full Seal Team is much larger than 120 men (right now the Teams are around 2,500 men, in 8-9 teams). SAS numbers are a bit more difficult to figure out (rather like the U.S. Delta detachment or one of the even more shadowy U.S. SPECOPS units).

[Wozza]

Is it true that US Navy Seals are trained by by Royal Marines?

This suggests that despite being a special forces unit they are at the top of the tree the way the SAS or Delta Force are.

[kojak]

Is it true that US Navy Seals are trained by by Royal Marines?They might train with them, but I doubt they're trained by them.

You might be thinking of the SBS, but again, the SEALs probably train with them rather than are trained by them.

[Jason]

The archers would be at the top I'd say - the Old Contemptibles and other relatively recent sorts would have the enthusiasm, but being able to use a 150 lb draw weight longbow properly requires *serious* upper body strength. Those guys would be able to punch your face through the back of your skull...

I'd like to throw Huscarls into the mix, anyone who couild swing a daneaxe and not only make it (alledgedly) go throw the next of a horse but also through the chainmail of the rider and stop in his spine has to be considered.

[Wozza]

They might train with them, but I doubt they're trained by them.

You might be thinking of the SBS, but again, the SEALs probably train with them rather than are trained by them.

Well, you see, that's what I would have thought, that is why it stood out when someone told me that SEALs were trained by RMs - the guy was suggesting that SEAL capabilities or different to how they are sometimes presented.

A quick web hunt reveals that this SEAL vs SAS question has been asked before.

[Hannibal.Caesar]

Well, you see, that's what I would have thought, that is why it stood out when someone told me that SEALs were trained by RMs - the guy was suggesting that SEAL capabilities or different to how they are sometimes presented.

A quick web hunt reveals that this SEAL vs SAS question has been asked before.

No, the SEALs are not trained by the Royal Marines or any British special forces unit. The training program SEALs go through is called BUD/S, and recruits are trained by former SEALs turned instructors. Kind of like boot camp from hell; I suppose they call don't call it Hell Week for nothin'.

However, the SEALs do train with both the SAS and the SBS (Special Boat Service). Cross-training between US and UK special forces teams is quite common ... I've even heard of the USCG AST teams cross-training with their UK counterparts.

[Flocculencio]

If we are going to talk about past generations then the guys from 1914-18 would in all likelihood would undoubtedly be near the top of the barroom brawl league and so come to that would the archers of the 100 year war.

Yes, with their gigantic overdeveloped drawing arms :D

[Flocculencio]

Better make that the Australian guys from WWI. :D

Pfft. They'll run screaming if they see a Turk ;)

[kojak]

Pfft. They'll run screaming if they see a Turk ;)Only if a British Officer is coordinating them, though.

[Flocculencio]

I'd like to throw Huscarls into the mix, anyone who couild swing a daneaxe and not only make it (alledgedly) go throw the next of a horse but also through the chainmail of the rider and stop in his spine has to be considered.

True- assuming you're referring to the huscarls of the Anglo-Saxon kings, or the Varangian Guard who performed pretty much the same function. The Anglo-Saxon huscarls also seem to have been more disciplined than most mediaeval infantry.

[Novosibrisk]

Who would be refereeing the international hardest bar fighters of all time comntest? Some kind of unholy international union of barkeeps and landlords? 'cos if not my money is on them... or pirates. 90% of pirates are weened straight off breast milk and on to rum and fighting.

[The Dean]

Who would be refereeing the international hardest bar fighters of all time comntest? Some kind of unholy international union of barkeeps and landlords? 'cos if not my money is on them... or pirates. 90% of pirates are weened straight off breast milk and on to rum and fighting.

Well traditionally the big hearted, and chested, madam of the local house of pleasure picks the winner of the barroom brawl as her escort for the night.

Oh and by the way why has nobody mentioned the Spetznaz yet as a contender in the sub-plot of the bar brawl thread? They were as good as the other units that have been mentioned.

[Caledor]

is it so that the Spetznaz are not a specific military unit but just a general reference to all kinds of Russian/Soviet special forces?:confused:

[Kevin in Indy]

I don't know any more than I read or watch in fiction, but I'll throw in with the SAS just because I suspect they average tougher to start with.

[kojak]

is it so that the Spetznaz are not a specific military unit but just a general reference to all kinds of Russian/Soviet special forces?:confused:Correct. 'Spetznaz' is a general term for special forces, not an actual unit. Closest thing the Russians have to the SAS, etc, is Alfa group or Spetsgruppa A, IRC.

[Jason]

True- assuming you're referring to the huscarls of the Anglo-Saxon kings, or the Varangian Guard who performed pretty much the same function. The Anglo-Saxon huscarls also seem to have been more disciplined than most mediaeval infantry.

Indeed I was, though I would also say the Danish originals were just as impressive.

[werd93]

In a battle between a U.S. Navy SEAL tema (i.e. 120 men) against a comparatively-sized force of British SAS, who would emerge the victor? Both are armed and equipped in their respective fashion and the battle takes place in... well, wherever.

Baised on research I have done, there aren't even 100 SAS Soilders
so if you got an even match going X# of SEALs vs X# of SAS
here's what you would expect
Well the SAS is divided into to four Troops: (Primarily ways of insertion)
Air Troop
Boat Troop
Mobility Troop
Mountain Troop
The SEALs are broken up into SEAL Teams, but they do not differ much
Each Seal however is trained for insertion by Air Sea and Land

Off the bat the SAS would have the advantage
SAS soilders are specialy qualified in one area(but are trained in all)
SAS would have more specificly qualified men for the insertion part of the attack
The SAS could then set up their Machine guns and mortars
and the SEALs would not be far behind
but since the SAS already have their mortars set up they would be one the ones favored to win

but all things considered
any soilder in any special forces regiment is not a... super infantryman(yes they must be a good infantry soilder, but elite regiments like the SAS don't carry out infantry assignments)they carry out more sensitive ones (such as hostage rescue, snatch and goes, recon, ect.)
these guys don't go in kill 'em all and get out
they go in swift, do there job, and get out before anyone knows what happened

[Fellatio Nelson]

[QUOTE]Baised on research I have done, there aren't even 100 SAS Soilders

Then your research is poor. There are far more than 100 SAS Soilders.


Well the SAS is divided into to four Troops: (Primarily ways of insertion)
Air Troop
Boat Troop
Mobility Troop
Mountain Troop


Yes, but only organisationally so you have teams available who're immediately acclimatised to and equipped for such operations. They are not limited to these roles.


but elite regiments like the SAS don't carry out infantry assignments) they carry out more sensitive ones (such as hostage rescue, snatch and goes, recon, ect.)

They do, but not conventional infantry assignments because it's a waste of their talent.

The SAS has recently worked in large scale operations.

these guys don't go in kill 'em all and get out

In conjunction with para support they did that in Sierra Leone in 2000; killed several hundred African-junky types who were holding UN hostages for the loss of one DOW.

they go in swift, do there job, and get out before anyone knows what happened

And then write a series of awful books about it.

[Wanderlust]

And then write a series of awful books about it.

'Britain's original SAS hero' according to my bus stop about the latest book.

No-one's heard of David Stirling, then?