Luftwaffe '46

[bard32]

There's a scenario that I first heard about on the History Channel. It's called
Luftwaffe '46. (For Luftwaffe 1946,) and I first heard about it on a History Channel special. Here's the scenario in brief: World War II doesn't end in 1945,
but goes into 1946. Germany develops its Volksjager, or People's Fighter, and
long range bombers capable of bombing New York. By 1946, according to the
special, the war had entered its seventh year, and both Germany and the Allies are fielding second- and third-generation jet fighters. The German long
range bombers were jet bombers capable of flying higher than the standard
piston engine fighters of the day and the American AAA. The German bombers were, according to the special, carrying nuclear bombs, and they dropped them on New York City. The special was called Weird Weapons of the Axis, and it also said that one German scientist, I forget his name, maybe you could help me out on this, was developing an actual space bomber. The
space bomber, in 1945-'46, was impossible.

[Admiral Canaris]

The "space bomber" was Eugen Sänger's Silbervogel, a project unfeasible for any number of reasons.

The rest sounds like pure wank. The Heinkel He 162 Salamander ("Volksjäger") was a rushed-through project with more problems than could be counted, and the bombers were nothing close to approaching deployment status. Never mind that the German war industry was entirely unable to sustain another year's fighting...

[kojak]

First of all, what is your point? What's your WI? What's your challenge?

Second of all, do you like being ridiculed, bard32? Luft46? We've been over it with you in countless threads, I can't believe it hasn't sunk in to your head yet.

Nuclear bombs on Luft46 planes bombing New York? Come on! ASB, pure and simple.

[bard32]

The "space bomber" was Eugen Sänger's Silbervogel, a project unfeasible for any number of reasons.

The rest sounds like pure wank. The Heinkel He 162 Salamander ("Volksjäger") was a rushed-through project with more problems than could be counted, and the bombers were nothing close to approaching deployment status. Never mind that the German war industry was entirely unable to sustain another year's fighting...

Thanks. The German Air Ministry supplied Eugen Sanger with the funds for it then thought better of it. The Horten brothers were responsible for the invention of the German flying wing.

[bard32]

First of all, what is your point? What's your WI? What's your challenge?

Second of all, do you like being ridiculed, bard32? Luft46? We've been over it with you in countless threads, I can't believe it hasn't sunk in to your head yet.

Nuclear bombs on Luft46 planes bombing New York? Come on! ASB, pure and simple.

My point is that the POD is 1946, kojack. No, I don't like being ridiculed. Luftwaffe '46, as the name says, is an exercise that has World War II go into
1946. Maybe ASB. Pure and simple? Don't be so sure.

[Roberto]

My point is that the POD is 1946, kojack. No, I don't like being ridiculed. Luftwaffe '46, as the name says, is an exercise that has World War II go into
1946. Maybe ASB. Pure and simple? Don't be so sure.

Yes, ASB. Luftwaffe can't simply poof up the materials and engineers to build fleets of new high-tech planes, and can't staff them all with experienced pilots.

[Cockroach]

World War II doesn't end in 1945,but goes into 1946. Germany develops its Volksjager, or People's Fighter, andlong range bombers capable of bombing New York.
Does the program attempt to offer the slightest explanation as to how Germany lasts into 1946 and to how it finds the additional resources to bring various paper project not meerly to prototype stage but to service within the additional year?
By 1946, according to the
special, the war had entered its seventh year, and both Germany and the Allies are fielding second- and third-generation jet fighters.
By the 'usual' jet fighter generational division (Meteor, Me-262 = 1; F-22, F-35 = 5)?
Second generation? Not really, stretching it you may be able to place some of the more advanced napkinwaffe designs in there. Third generation (MiG-21, Mirage III, F-104 type aircraft)? Hell no! If you want that try Luft '55 :rolleyes:
The German bombers were, according to the special, carrying nuclear bombs, and they dropped them on New York City
Ha ha ha ha ha! Just shows how f**king hopeless the "History" Channel is. The German atomic program was amoungst numerous other problems running on incredibly inaccurate calculations of the mass of fissile material needed and thus would have used a bomb too large to be carried by any of the aircraft under deisgn or in service.

[Paulo the Limey]

My point is that the POD is 1946, kojack. No, I don't like being ridiculed. Luftwaffe '46, as the name says, is an exercise that has World War II go into
1946. Maybe ASB. Pure and simple? Don't be so sure.

DO you even understand the meaning of POD? It stands for Point Of Departure- the point at which the alternate history diverges from Our TimeLine (OTL). You are saying that with a POD past when Germany had already unconditionally surrendered they are still fighting WWII. Then you wonder why you get such harsh responses.
If you don't like being ridiculed you might want to go away and learn some basic things about AH terminology, clichés. Then come back and don't start a new thread unless you've searched the site first. I bet you'll find a lot of the threads you've started have had their ideas discussed in detail before.

[CalBear]

My point is that the POD is 1946, kojack. No, I don't like being ridiculed. Luftwaffe '46, as the name says, is an exercise that has World War II go into
1946. Maybe ASB. Pure and simple? Don't be so sure.


Okay, here we go AGAIN. Bollocks!

The supposed Amerika bomber was a FAILED Project. The Reich built ONE ME-264 (cruising speed 350kph/210mph) and TWO Ju-390 (357/214), and this was BEFORE their industry had effectively ceased to exist.

Even IF they had been produced, both aircraft were markedly inferior in flight characteristics to such advanced American aircraft as the P-36 and Brewster Buffalo, both of which had been withdrawn from front line service in 1942 but could have literally flown circles around either German bomber (actually, based on performance characteristics, a P-26 (377/224) could have blown them out of the sky). Simply put, both aircraft were pigs in the air, with remarkable range and the flight characteristics of a towed target sleeve.

The German nuclear program was a DEAD END. They had made a basic error quite early on, gone down the wrong path, and hadn't, all the way to the very end, figured that out. One of the Manhattan development team remarked, post war, that the Germans wouldn't, based on their research path, have been able to build a bomb in "a hundred years". While an obvious exaggeration, it is still a revealing comment on how badly the Germans had screwed up. There is no more chance that the Reich could have produced a Bomb by 1946 than there is that someone could create one with the parts of a '72 Oldsmobile and a radium watch dial.

All of this ignores the simple matter that the Reich making it to 1946 is a practical impossibility. It also ignores the fact that the Germans had no resources available to build long range bombers, by early 1945 they couldn't even build fighters as quickly as the Allies were shooting them down.

Once again, using the History Channel for anything other than entertainment is worse than worthless.

[Atreus]

Allow me to dissect this WI

There's a scenario that I first heard about on the History Channel. It's called
Luftwaffe '46. (For Luftwaffe 1946,) and I first heard about it on a History Channel special. Here's the scenario in brief: World War II doesn't end in 1945,
but goes into 1946.

Really? I hadn't noticed. However, we have already hit a major flaw: How is the third reich in any way functioning as a state in 1946? 1944 ended with the relief of Bastonge and the beginning of the siege of Budapest by the allies. On January 17, 1945, Soviet forces liberated warsaw, and they would cross the Oder (the current german-polish border) on the 31st. Germany has lost the war. Changing that needs a POD long beforehand, which brings in a host of butterflies (the asbs have already arrived).

Germany develops its Volksjager, or People's Fighter, and
long range bombers capable of bombing New York.

The Salamander was a horrible fighter, and would be better of not being made in the first place. The Long range bombers were prototypes and designs, and the idea was rendered moot with the liberation of france. it's enough of a stretch to see Germans hitting america from Brittany and bordeaux; how can they do it from within Germany? In 1946, the western allies will be flying meteors and shooting stars; the Germans won't really be flying anything.

By 1946, according to the
special, the war had entered its seventh year,

So the history channel has mastered basic addition

and both Germany and the Allies are fielding second- and third-generation jet fighters.

I'm lost. Both sides are going to be flying equivalents of the Mig-21 fishbed, Saab J35 Drakon, English Electric Lightning, and the F-104 Starfighter? Those are considered second generation jet fighters.

The German long
range bombers were jet bombers capable of flying higher than the standard
piston engine fighters of the day and the American AAA.

True to a degree. However, the germans never actually sent one on a bombing raid, and I don't see why american anti-aircraft guns are particularly relavent. London was more heavily defended by British weapons. It's in Britain, you know.

The German bombers were, according to the special, carrying nuclear bombs, and they dropped them on New York City.

That feature was for ratings more then anything else. Look, the German atomic bomb project was hopelessly flawed, and they deffinatly won't be able to get a working bomb (assuming they had one) across the atlantic. On the other hand, the American project worked just fine. The nail in Hitler's coffin will probably be an early sunrise over several german cities.

The special was called Weird Weapons of the Axis, and it also said that one German scientist, I forget his name, maybe you could help me out on this, was developing an actual space bomber.

How are the musings of a german scientist about a program far beyond his capabilities at all relavent for this discussion?

The
space bomber, in 1945-'46, was impossible.

Finally, some common sense. Although since you define both sides as being able to build equivalents of the F-II Phantom in 1946 (3rd generation fighter), i would think that would be a possibility by 1950:rolleyes:

I think I see what you are trying to do, but your task is hopeless. Germany and japan have, in 1945, reached the point where they can barely even buy themselves time. Nothing short of the direct intervention of ASBs can change that. Next time, please properly research your ideas for plausibility before posting them.

[Bill Garvin]

World War II doesn't end in 1945, but goes into 1946.
How? FYI The Russian Army was jumping up and down on Berlin in May 1945.

Germany develops its Volksjager, or People's Fighter,
The He-162 was nothing special at best. A flying deathtrap at worst.

and long range bombers capable of bombing New York.

WRONG Both Amerika-bomber programs had long been abandoned. The only program left was the Horton XVIII which was, at best, years away from completion and probably wouldn't have been flyable anyway. Flying wing designs didn't work very well until computer flight stabilization came along. Look up the Northrop farces called the B-35 and B-49.

By 1946, according to the special, the war had entered its seventh year, and both Germany and the Allies are fielding second- and third-generation jet fighters.

WRONG The German "second-generation fighters" weren't second generation and wouldn't have been flying in 1946 or 1947. None of their designs were workable because they didn;t have the engines to power them. The allies could have been flying the first second generation aircraft (the F-84 and F9F Panther, the advanced Meteor and the MiG-15 -possibly - by 1947 but not the Germans. Third generation aircraft are out of the question, there are too many aerodynamic problems concerning the sound barrier tio be solved first.

The German long range bombers were jet bombers capable of flying higher than the standard piston engine fighters of the day and the American AAA.

WRONG The long-range German bombers were piston engined and had service ceilings of around 26,000 feet (Me-264) or 19,000 feet (Ju-390). American fighters had plenty of altitude to handle them and American heavy AA was effective (like everybody elses) to those altitudes. The only heavy bomber that combined intercontinental range and high-flying ability was the American B-36 which could overfly piston-engined and early jet-engined interceptors.

The German bombers were, according to the special, carrying nuclear bombs, and they dropped them on New York City.

WRONG The German atomic bomb effort collapsed in 1943. There was no German atomic bomb program of any significance in 1945, In fact, the German Army planned to use its uranium to make anti-tank shot.

It also said that one German scientist, I forget his name, maybe you could help me out on this, was developing an actual space bomber.

Google is your friend. The Sanger Antipodean bomber was indeed drawn (I won't say designed) In Germany during the late 1930s and early 1940s. The materials, technology and the basic science needed to make it work didn't exist and to the best of my knowledge don't exist now. You'll notice nobody uses the atmospheric skipping technique today.

Do you get some sort of masochistic thrill out of making yourself look absurd?

[Admiral Canaris]

Do we have to crack down quite so hard on bard? He just didn't know better than to take a wanked TV programme at face value. We don't have to crush him down into his shoes.

*Swedish expression, probably sounds weird in English, I know...

[kojak]

Do we have to crack down quite so hard on bard? He just didn't know better than to take a wanked TV programme at face value. We don't have to crush him down into his shoes.

*Swedish expression, probably sounds weird in English, I know...If this was the first or even the second time he did this, then yes, we would've been unduly harsh on him, but this isn't the first, nor second time is it?

[Bill Garvin]

I'm lost. Both sides are going to be flying equivalents of the Mig-21 fishbed, Saab J35 Drakon, English Electric Lightning, and the F-104 Starfighter? Those are considered second generation jet fighters.

If I might slightly ammend your comment here Atreus, today we consider all the 1940s designed jet fighters as being First generation but back in the fifties and early sixties, there was a distinction drawn between the First generation (jet fighters that were only a limited advance on the final piston-engined types like the Me-262, He-162, Meteor, P-80 and Yak-15/17) and the second generation fighters that had more powerful engines, exploited the capability of their jets and were reliable enough to be in full service (F-84, F9F, advanced Meteor, MiG-15). Then the third generaion were the MiG-21/F-104/Crusader generation. The fourth generation were the heavily electronicized missile fighters like the F4 Phantom and its equivalents while the Fifth Generation were "advanced" designs like the F-14, F-15 and F-111.

About the mid-1970s onwards, the definition you are using came to become standard with the first two generations being merged and the F-14/F-15 era aircraft becoming Fourth-Generation and the new reduced -signature supercruise designs becoming 5th Generation. Much more logical than the earlier convention. It wouldn't surprise me to see the current second and third generations being merged to make room for a new "fifth generation" in due course.

[CalBear]

Do we have to crack down quite so hard on bard? He just didn't know better than to take a wanked TV programme at face value. We don't have to crush him down into his shoes.

*Swedish expression, probably sounds weird in English, I know...


Actually, I rather like that "crush him down into his shoes".

I AM stealing that!:D

To the main point... Bard has posted one silly-ass thread after another, and will generally persist in pushing them AFTER it was been demonstrated that they have no possible traction (check his Yamamoto thread as an example). He has also used both novels :eek: and the History Channel to support his position even after the flaws if both sources have been carefully pointed out.

Sometimes you reap what you sow.

[Bill Garvin]

Do we have to crack down quite so hard on bard? He just didn't know better than to take a wanked TV programme at face value. We don't have to crush him down into his shoes.

But he's doing it over and over again; he uses television programs as historical sources, gets even the most basic bits of data wrong when a very quick check using google would give him the correct information. He also lied to us by claiming to be a man in his late 40s when its painfully obvious he's a young teenager who is getting into some very bad habits. Frankly I think he's being treated appropriately.

[Admiral Canaris]

Hmm, given all that, I am now leaning towards concurring. I didn't know about that stuff, as I haven't been checking his threads that often.

[Archangel Michael]

I think some of the Luft46 projects could have worked if only the Luftwaffe hadn't spent all of its money on Photoshop. ;)

As everyone else, most (if not all) of the Luft46 projects were rushed and destined to fail. Sure, some of them looked pretty or pretty odd, but that didn't mean that they'd work. The last thing the Luftwaffe should have been building was an Amerika bomber.

[Atreus]

If I might slightly ammend your comment here Atreus, today we consider all the 1940s designed jet fighters as being First generation but back in the fifties and early sixties, there was a distinction drawn between the First generation (jet fighters that were only a limited advance on the final piston-engined types like the Me-262, He-162, Meteor, P-80 and Yak-15/17) and the second generation fighters that had more powerful engines, exploited the capability of their jets and were reliable enough to be in full service (F-84, F9F, advanced Meteor, MiG-15). Then the third generaion were the MiG-21/F-104/Crusader generation. The fourth generation were the heavily electronicized missile fighters like the F4 Phantom and its equivalents while the Fifth Generation were "advanced" designs like the F-14, F-15 and F-111.

About the mid-1970s onwards, the definition you are using came to become standard with the first two generations being merged and the F-14/F-15 era aircraft becoming Fourth-Generation and the new reduced -signature supercruise designs becoming 5th Generation. Much more logical than the earlier convention. It wouldn't surprise me to see the current second and third generations being merged to make room for a new "fifth generation" in due course.

Thanks. i should have caught that. However, my points still stand for two reasons. The first is it is as likely that the Germans will get equivalents of the Mig-15 as they will equivalents of the f-104 or the Phantom (ie-none). The second is that Bard32 appears to be writting from a modern context. And given the number of other basic facts he missed, i find it unlikely that he knew of the previous merging of aircraft generations. So when he said third generation fighters, the meaning as used today means that he was refering to the contemporaries of the Phantom.

Interesting thought about aircraft generations there. However, while I understand the rationale of merging the old second and third generations, there is more of a difference between a Phantom-II or a Saab Viggen and a F-86 or Mig-21 then there is between a F-86 and a Mig-15.

[Caesar]

Does the program attempt to offer the slightest explanation as to how Germany lasts into 1946 and to how it finds the additional resources to bring various paper project not meerly to prototype stage but to service within the additional year?

By the 'usual' jet fighter generational division (Meteor, Me-262 = 1; F-22, F-35 = 5)?
Second generation? Not really, stretching it you may be able to place some of the more advanced napkinwaffe designs in there. Third generation (MiG-21, Mirage III, F-104 type aircraft)? Hell no! If you want that try Luft '55 :rolleyes:

Ha ha ha ha ha! Just shows how f**king hopeless the "History" Channel is. The German atomic program was amoungst numerous other problems running on incredibly inaccurate calculations of the mass of fissile material needed and thus would have used a bomb too large to be carried by any of the aircraft under deisgn or in service.

I watched the special in question, and all it was doing was showing some of the designs that the Germans had on the drawing board right before their defeat. As I saw it, the concept of the war continuing into 1946 was basically only used as a background for showing the various aircraft designs flying against Allied forces. I remember nothing from the special saying it was possible for the Nazis to pull of proloning the war and getting the resources to build all of their new toys, it was simply showing what those toys might have looked like if they could have been built.

[karl2025]

Yes, ASB. Luftwaffe can't simply poof up the materials and engineers to build fleets of new high-tech planes, and can't staff them all with experienced pilots.

I don't know how much good experienced pilots would be when transitioning from propeller planes to jets, in OTL it was usually easier just to train new ones. Your point still works though because the Germans were unable to give as much training time to their pilots as the allies.

I know there's a lot of sentiment of people saying that if Germany lasted into '46 that the Allied air superiority would make any advances meaningless, but you can think about it the other way around too: For Germany to survive into '46, they'd need to at least contest air superiority longer than OTL anyways. Victory's not remotely likely, and the allied effort would grind down any German effort, but you might be able to get one new fighter out of the deal, possibly an upgrade on the Blitz Bomber.

To have the Luftwaffe pump out some new planes in '46, you'd have to get rid of (at least) one of the fronts. Either they knock the UK out before going up against Russia, or have that Soviet peace that was hinted at in '41 or '42 go through. Then the Nazis would be able to gear up for the next war and you can see things like America Bombers (non orbital), advanced Jet Fighters, and maybe even another Nazi-Wank of Bard32's: Plan-Z. Eventually. Someday?

...Maybe?

[CalBear]

I don't know how much good experienced pilots would be when transitioning from propeller planes to jets, in OTL it was usually easier just to train new ones. Your point still works though because the Germans were unable to give as much training time to their pilots as the allies.

I know there's a lot of sentiment of people saying that if Germany lasted into '46 that the Allied air superiority would make any advances meaningless, but you can think about it the other way around too: For Germany to survive into '46, they'd need to at least contest air superiority longer than OTL anyways. Victory's not remotely likely, and the allied effort would grind down any German effort, but you might be able to get one new fighter out of the deal, possibly an upgrade on the Blitz Bomber.

To have the Luftwaffe pump out some new planes in '46, you'd have to get rid of (at least) one of the fronts. Either they knock the UK out before going up against Russia, or have that Soviet peace that was hinted at in '41 or '42 go through. Then the Nazis would be able to gear up for the next war and you can see things like America Bombers (non orbital), advanced Jet Fighters, and maybe even another Nazi-Wank of Bard32's: Plan-Z. Eventually. Someday?

...Maybe?

Plan Z was totally worthless. Build the entire force as planed, and it is isn't the equal of ONE of Marc Mitscher's sub units (e.g. TF 58.1), much less the force the U.S. had planned to build. The other German systems are the same, by the time you are ready to go, the U.S. is far more ready.

[karl2025]

Plan Z was totally worthless. Build the entire force as planed, and it is isn't the equal of ONE of Marc Mitscher's sub units (e.g. TF 58.1), much less the force the U.S. had planned to build. The other German systems are the same, by the time you are ready to go, the U.S. is far more ready.

Yeah, it was worthless, especially in comparison with a victorious (or semi-victorious) Reich's enemies, but if they've accepted an advantageous peace against the Russians and a peace with the English that leaves them their gains in Europe, then I don't see the Germans not doing it.

In any case, it's irrelevant and I only brought it up as some small consolation to Bard.

[Permanganate]

The He-162 was nothing special at best. A flying deathtrap at worst.

I saw this, and thought I'd point out that Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162) has German and British pilot reports about it, calling it a "first-class combat aircraft" and great to fly, though it needed an experienced pilot and had some (fixable) flaws due to its rush to production.

I wouldn't want to give it to incredibly undertrained teen pilots, as the Germans originally planned to, but it seems like another six months would have turned it into an excellent aircraft.

[Admiral Canaris]

I saw this, and thought I'd point out that Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162) has German and British pilot reports about it, calling it a "first-class combat aircraft" and great to fly, though it needed an experienced pilot and had some (fixable) flaws due to its rush to production.

I wouldn't want to give it to incredibly undertrained teen pilots, as the Germans originally planned to, but it seems like another six months would have turned it into an excellent aircraft.

The problem was that the Germans had neither the tech nor the materials for building good jet engines; they all burned out rather quickly. Any German jet was, in and of itself, unstable and unreliable.

[grdja83]

WI Germany realized how very not cost effective were V weapons and Hitler didnt have a "every plane must be a dive bomber" fixation, and Luftwaffe was less influenced by Goering's fantasies and incompetence.

So, with all above factors, and taking into account Speer's post war speculations, WI in 1942. Germany placed significant effort do develop and debug He-162 (one engine vs. two, economically it tops Me-262 all the way) and maybe the land operator guided Waserfall SAM. (it just took way to long for SAMs to get potent in OTL, most likely it would be a waste of resources but who knows, against giant Allied bomber formations it maybe could be cost effective)

Sure, they wont win the war. But they could provide much tougher defense to Allied air offensive than OTL efforts. (and remember that I postulate cessation of all other V projects so thats a huge amount of manpower and resources freed)

How would war in Europe develop with Allies obtaining total air superiority much later than in OTL? Red Airforce will be in much harder position than in OTL, though we will still see Luftwaffe bleed and die protecting German cities.

Soviets entering Berlin only in late 1945.? More allied vs. axis jet fighter combat during 1944. and 1945.?

[Admiral Canaris]

WI Germany realized how very not cost effective were V weapons and Hitler didnt have a "every plane must be a dive bomber" fixation, and Luftwaffe was less influenced by Goering's fantasies and incompetence.

So, with all above factors, and taking into account Speer's post war speculations, WI in 1942. Germany placed significant effort do develop and debug He-162 (one engine vs. two, economically it tops Me-262 all the way) and maybe the land operator guided Waserfall SAM. (it just took way to long for SAMs to get potent in OTL, most likely it would be a waste of resources but who knows, against giant Allied bomber formations it maybe could be cost effective)

Sure, they wont win the war. But they could provide much tougher defense to Allied air offensive than OTL efforts. (and remember that I postulate cessation of all other V projects so thats a huge amount of manpower and resources freed)

How would war in Europe develop with Allies obtaining total air superiority much later than in OTL? Red Airforce will be in much harder position than in OTL, though we will still see Luftwaffe bleed and die protecting German cities.

Soviets entering Berlin only in late 1945.? More allied vs. axis jet fighter combat during 1944. and 1945.?

The He 162 was only developed in 1944, so '42 is a bit early for such a POD.

[Bill Garvin]

I saw this, and thought I'd point out that Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162) has German and British pilot reports about it, calling it a "first-class combat aircraft" and great to fly, though it needed an experienced pilot and had some (fixable) flaws due to its rush to production. I wouldn't want to give it to incredibly undertrained teen pilots, as the Germans originally planned to, but it seems like another six months would have turned it into an excellent aircraft.

I found the following pilot evaluation Here (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/he-162-a-3234.html)

PILOT EVALUATION
In a post war evaluation by RAF pilot Commander William Benson test flew the He 162 having already checked out in the Gloster Meteor and the Me 262. He mentioned that it had a cockpit the size of the Vampire and had the feel and layout of familiar German fighters. “The 162 had an ejector seat fired by a 30mm shell. Instrumentation was sparse- Revi gun sight, gyro-compass, airspeed indicator, engine temperature, altimeter, fuel and flow gauges and radio. There was small window in the floor to see that the front wheel was down. Hydraulics lifted the landing gear but tension springs popped it down.”

He continued, “I liked the visibility but the aileron control movement was unfelt through the stick. I mentioned that it was about as noisy as sitting in the last row of Boeing 727 airliner seats. It was quieter than a Mosquito or Spitfire and he could hear himself speak in the cabin. The 162s he flew had either 153 or 170 Imperial gallon main tanks but both had 40 gallons in the wet wings.”

“It needed no warm up and lifted off at 120 KPH but didn’t give a “good push” like the twin-engine Meteor. He climbed to 28,000 feet and effortlessly cruised at 500 MPH. He kept in mind the Heinkel factory pilot’s demise from wing stress as he flew the splinter box.” (All MPH and other performance figures were later calculated from the metric instruments’ read outs)

His crew chief was quoted as saying, “If you’re barmy enough to want to fly this carpenter’s nightmare, Sir, I feel I should point out that this ‘er glorified bloody blow torch you’re ‘anging under is only ‘anging on by two **^@#^* Bolts!”

Thinking quickly, Benson retorted, “Well Sarge, if the bloody blow torch comes off I’ll just have to glide the jolly thing back won’t I?”

“I felt the plane snaking gently left to right but tried a gentle low G loop with a 3,000-foot diameter at 28,000 feet and some other gentle maneuvers with no problems. I actually enjoyed flying it. The plane had no vices thus far and he pondered if Hitler youth may have been able to fly it after all,” he said.

“But upon landing I noticed poor lateral control even though he was about 15 MPH over the advised 110 MPH approach speed. With 30-degrees flaps at 130 MPH I let down the gear. The nose gear’s close proximity springing down made a tremendous noise,” he concluded.

He synopsized the plane’s handling thusly: “Low speed very tricky, lateral and longitudinal stability poor due to high mount of engine, control movements at all speeds had to be smooth-no sudden input.

“Maximum altitude attained 42,200 ft. at 470 MPH, range at sea level 240 miles, 385 miles at 20,000 ft., 610 miles at 38,000 feet, 4,700 FPM at takeoff and 3,200 FPM at 20,000 ft. Maximum level speed seen- 562 MPH at 18,400 ft. Maximum dive speed 585 MPH at 25,000 ft. begun at 35,000 ft. Control snatch and buffet severe at those speeds requiring slow movements to level out. Lowest safe speed 120 MPH with some flaps. Treated smoothly with an experienced pilot, say, 2,600 hours flight time, it was very good. No way you could haul it around in maneuvers like a Spit or FW 190. Hitler Youth would have never stood a chance. Good visibility ahead and up but poor behind and back laterally.”

Interesting. I disagree that it would have matured into an excellent design; at best it would have been the low end of a high-low mix. Had it been designed in something less than a frantic rush it might have been a viable fighter

[Parma]

Any body know the site Luft46? must be........I hope
Has nothing to do with POD's but still a nice site of ''what if'' planes

[bard32]

Yes, ASB. Luftwaffe can't simply poof up the materials and engineers to build fleets of new high-tech planes, and can't staff them all with experienced pilots.

Did I say it could? No, I didn't. Remember this. Germany was working on a nuclear bomb before we were. Germany had the most Nobel laureates before
1945. Why? Because they were Jewish. Hitler then banned all research on a
nuclear bomb because he didn't want a "Jewish bomb" has called it. The German Post Office, yes, the German Post Office, then started working on a
dirty bomb. A conventional bomb with a radiological component. That didn't
work out either. Do you want to know why the German Post Office was involved in German nuclear bomb research? It's because the German military
didn't have anything like the Manhattan Project. The special, Weird Weapons of the Axis, said that if World War II had lasted into 1946, Germany probably would have had a nuclear, or dirty bomb, by then.

[Nikephoros]

Any body know the site Luft46? must be........I hope
Has nothing to do with POD's but still a nice site of ''what if'' planes

I have seen that site: www.luft46.com (http://www.luft46.com)

The designs on that site are mostly drawings with no prototypes, but some designs definetaly appear to have influenced modern aircraft

[CalBear]

Did I say it could? No, I didn't. Remember this. Germany was working on a nuclear bomb before we were. Germany had the most Nobel laureates before
1945. Why? Because they were Jewish. Hitler then banned all research on a
nuclear bomb because he didn't want a "Jewish bomb" has called it. The German Post Office, yes, the German Post Office, then started working on a
dirty bomb. A conventional bomb with a radiological component. That didn't
work out either. Do you want to know why the German Post Office was involved in German nuclear bomb research? It's because the German military
didn't have anything like the Manhattan Project. The special, Weird Weapons of the Axis, said that if World War II had lasted into 1946, Germany probably would have had a nuclear, or dirty bomb, by then.

Bollocks on Stilts!

One more time: History Channel is ENTERTAINMENT, not seriously research programing. I rather enjoy the shows, but I never mistake them for actual fact.

The Reich had more or less given up on making a bomb. As was pointed out by both Bill & me in earlier posts, this dog just won't hunt.

A "dirty" bomb is so far out as to be BEYOND ASB. The understanding of the results of radiation fallout on populations was, at best, miniscule in 1945 (hence the U.S. Army & USMC putting entrenched troops less than 800 yards from above ground test detonations). Since the danger from radiation was so poorly understood, why would a radiological weapn ever be considered, especially since the lack of a reactor prevests the creation of truly "hard" radioactive elements.

The Reichspostministerium funded researth in high frequency physics (for radio and television development) NOT BOMB PRODUCTION. The German Bomb project was under the control of the Army Ordnance Office (HWA) under the name of Reich Research Council (RFR) until it was decided, in late 1942, that the program was a dry hole. This was based on the calcluations of the top research scientists that several TONS of pure U-235 was needed to achive critical mass (they only missed by around three decimal places).

There WAS no serious active German bomb project in 1945.

Next?

[Slamet]

Did I say it could? No, I didn't. Remember this. Germany was working on a nuclear bomb before we were. Germany had the most Nobel laureates before
1945. Why? Because they were Jewish. Hitler then banned all research on a
nuclear bomb because he didn't want a "Jewish bomb" has called it. The German Post Office, yes, the German Post Office, then started working on a
dirty bomb. A conventional bomb with a radiological component. That didn't
work out either. Do you want to know why the German Post Office was involved in German nuclear bomb research? It's because the German military
didn't have anything like the Manhattan Project. The special, Weird Weapons of the Axis, said that if World War II had lasted into 1946, Germany probably would have had a nuclear, or dirty bomb, by then.

The Norwegian partisans blew up most of Germany's 'heavy water' in February 1944. That and countless precious instruments for making them.

[Atreus]

Did I say it could? No, I didn't. Remember this. Germany was working on a nuclear bomb before we were. Germany had the most Nobel laureates before
1945. Why? Because they were Jewish. Hitler then banned all research on a
nuclear bomb because he didn't want a "Jewish bomb" has called it. The German Post Office, yes, the German Post Office, then started working on a
dirty bomb. A conventional bomb with a radiological component. That didn't
work out either. Do you want to know why the German Post Office was involved in German nuclear bomb research? It's because the German military
didn't have anything like the Manhattan Project. The special, Weird Weapons of the Axis, said that if World War II had lasted into 1946, Germany probably would have had a nuclear, or dirty bomb, by then.

Okay. despite a few flights of fancy by Hitler, the Germans never made serious advances on their atomic project. I cannot see the Germans benefiting from jewish scientists because the Nazis hated jews (this includes fermi, who fled italy because of a jewish wife if memory serves me correctly). Next, all nuclear devices have some radiological output, although such an output is regulated by weapon type. In fact, the modern method of creating a dirty bomb is to strap a jacket of cobalt or gold to the outside of a normal nuke. So no nukes, no radiological weapon. All you are right about is that Germany had no serious nuclear program, and could not have come up with a bomb if it did for years. This ignores the vital question of how germany makes it to 1946 without being obliterated (soviet invasion and American bombs; they don't even need nukes to finish the job).

In conclusion, all this talk about a german bomb, regardless of type is, as calbear put it, bollocks.

[bard32]

Does the program attempt to offer the slightest explanation as to how Germany lasts into 1946 and to how it finds the additional resources to bring various paper project not meerly to prototype stage but to service within the additional year?

By the 'usual' jet fighter generational division (Meteor, Me-262 = 1; F-22, F-35 = 5)?
Second generation? Not really, stretching it you may be able to place some of the more advanced napkinwaffe designs in there. Third generation (MiG-21, Mirage III, F-104 type aircraft)? Hell no! If you want that try Luft '55 :rolleyes:

Ha ha ha ha ha! Just shows how f**king hopeless the "History" Channel is. The German atomic program was amoungst numerous other problems running on incredibly inaccurate calculations of the mass of fissile material needed and thus would have used a bomb too large to be carried by any of the aircraft under deisgn or in service.

It's been a while since I've seen it but yes. it did. Hitler cancelled the Bomber B, or as it was known unofficially, the "Amerika Bomber." That was
a plan for a long range bomber similar to the B-29 Superfortress, which lasted until 1960, capable, as the name suggests, of striking the the United
States. Why do you think we escaped the bombing that Britain, Romania, Italy, Germany, and Japan suffered?

[bard32]

DO you even understand the meaning of POD? It stands for Point Of Departure- the point at which the alternate history diverges from Our TimeLine (OTL). You are saying that with a POD past when Germany had already unconditionally surrendered they are still fighting WWII. Then you wonder why you get such harsh responses.
If you don't like being ridiculed you might want to go away and learn some basic things about AH terminology, clichés. Then come back and don't start a new thread unless you've searched the site first. I bet you'll find a lot of the threads you've started have had their ideas discussed in detail before.

I know what POD means. Germany had plans to continue the war beyond 1945.
Germany was working on its Volksjager, (People's Fighter,) and better jets to
deal with the Allies. Ever hear of Operation Downfall? If Japan hadn't surrendered, we would have used more nuclear bombs, and invaded Japan.
One of the components of Operation Downfall was Operation Coronet and it
was supposed to begin in November of 1945 and go into 1946.

[Admiral Canaris]

Did I say it could? No, I didn't. Remember this. Germany was working on a nuclear bomb before we were. Germany had the most Nobel laureates before
1945. Why? Because they were Jewish. Hitler then banned all research on a
nuclear bomb because he didn't want a "Jewish bomb" has called it. The German Post Office, yes, the German Post Office, then started working on a
dirty bomb. A conventional bomb with a radiological component. That didn't
work out either. Do you want to know why the German Post Office was involved in German nuclear bomb research? It's because the German military
didn't have anything like the Manhattan Project. The special, Weird Weapons of the Axis, said that if World War II had lasted into 1946, Germany probably would have had a nuclear, or dirty bomb, by then.

With all due respect, the TV show was lying through their teeth. Germany never really had a serious atomics programme, and the chances of them getting a bomb by '46 with that late a POD are, frankly, negative.

First, von Heisenberg was either a very shitty administrator or deliberately sabotaging the effort, messing up lab routines and frequently leaving the test bed unattended. That wasn't too smart, because heavy water leaked into the uranium, liberated hydrogen and causing the reactor to explode. Not too surprisingly, laboratory, heavy water and research documentation were all destroyed. This was at some point in '42, IIRC. After that, there wasn't really any serious research, and most of the German Uranium stocks went to power AP artillery shells (kind of like depleted Uranium is used today, to compensate for the Nazi Tungsten shortage). That was, basically, it for der Bomb.

And that's not even going into the failure to isolate U-235; von Heisenberg's shitty calculations for the critical mass; the decision to use heavy water as a moderator in the first place...

[Paulo the Limey]

I know what POD means. Germany had plans to continue the war beyond 1945.

Quite clearly you don't understand what it means, otherwise you wouldn't have stated that with a POD in 1946, Germany could still be in the war.


Germany was working on its Volksjager, (People's Fighter,) and better jets to
deal with the Allies.
So? We have told you, time and again, that these plans are utter twaddle, and the only people who believe them are:

Gullible people who swallow whatever crock of crap the History Channel claim as "facts", or
Nazitech-fetishists.

Which one are you?

Ever hear of Operation Downfall?

Yes. It has nothing to do with this thread, so why bother mentioning it?

Some other utterly irrelevant stuff.
Why do you insist on bringing this stuff up?

[Bill Garvin]

Hitler cancelled the Bomber B, or as it was known unofficially, the "Amerika Bomber."

WRONG Bomber B and the Amerika Bomber were two entirely different programs. Bomber B was intended to produce a high-speed bomber that would replace all medium and heavy bombers - ie the Ju-88 and the Do-217. Candidates were the Ju-288 and the Do-317. The Amerika Bomber was a project for a transatlantic bomber and gave borth to the Me-264 (which might, repeat might, have been based on a stolen Boeing design) and the Ju-390.

That was a plan for a long range bomber similar to the B-29 Superfortress, which lasted until 1960

WRONG. The last B-29 was withdrawn from operational service in 1954. The only B-29 to make it to 1960 (and then only just) was used for radar calibration trials.

Why do you think we escaped the bombing that Britain, Romania, Italy, Germany, and Japan suffered?

Errr, because the Geramsn didn't have the engine power to build a real transatlantic bomber.

[grdja83]

The He 162 was only developed in 1944, so '42 is a bit early for such a POD.

Yes I know. But for that single program to produce a good plane a early and significant and early POD is needed. And Wasserfal having potential to be effective weapons might purely be Speer's daydreaming. So I postulated rather ASB factors, Hitler giving up on his dive bomber obsession, competent leadership in Luftwaffe, someone realizing that they have to few jet engines to waste two on Me262 and that a cheap single engine plane (like a He162) is needed.

[Admiral Canaris]

Yes I know. But for that single program to produce a good plane a early and significant and early POD is needed. And Wasserfal having potential to be effective weapons might purely be Speer's daydreaming. So I postulated rather ASB factors, Hitler giving up on his dive bomber obsession, competent leadership in Luftwaffe, someone realizing that they have to few jet engines to waste two on Me262 and that a cheap single engine plane (like a He162) is needed.

Taking that into account, all right. Personally, I think it could've made a difference if they'd just invested in Fw 190s and their offshoots instead of the Me 109 as their mainstay fighter. Not enough to win the war, but to hurt the Allied bombers worse.

Otherwise, pilot training was a much sorer point.

[Atreus]

It's been a while since I've seen it but yes. it did. Hitler cancelled the Bomber B, or as it was known unofficially, the "Amerika Bomber."

yes, in 1942.

That was
a plan for a long range bomber similar to the B-29 Superfortress, which lasted until 1960, capable, as the name suggests, of striking the the United
States.

look, the Germans never had a serious need for a strategic bomber, and never seriusly invested in one. Germany planned for a war in europe, easily within range of fighter cover (negating the need for extra guns). The Americans invested in these types of aircraft because they planned for a war across the Pacific against japan, across North America and the Atlantic against the British empire, and for random raids on Latin America. The British invested in them because they were planning to defeat germany by bombing raids. By the time Germany needed such a craft, they needed other things more. They also lacked experience with building that type of craft, and other related skills. Finally, I don't recall tthe B-29 being able to make a transatlantic bombing run from a base in the US to germany and back, so why can the Germans pull this off?

Why do you think we escaped the bombing that Britain, Romania, Italy, Germany, and Japan suffered?

I would guess it had a little something to do with being seperated by thousands of miles of ocean from any true competitors (Canada aside, but the British were not interested in a fight with the Americans), having all of it's war conducted on the far side of the world's two largest oceans, and being able to literally outrpoduce the competition.

I know what POD means.

good for you. Try plausibility.

Germany had plans to continue the war beyond 1945.

The arabs planned to crush the fledgling Israeli state in 1948. Japan had plans to force the US to the bargaining table by mid-1942. germany had plans named operation Sealion. That doesn't mean that they worked (or would have). and remember, the original german plans called for the USSR to be dealt a cripppling blow by the end of 1941, not for the hammer and sickle to fly from the reichstag in 1945. Planning something and actually carrying it out are two entirely different concepts.

Germany was working on its Volksjager, (People's Fighter,) and better jets to
deal with the Allies.

I would think the name might be a slightly worrying sign. As a general rule, when the Nazis name things peoples *insert word here*, they are getting desperate. And while the Salamander did have some good characteristics, it was a rushed job designed to fill a gap between quality and quantity, of which the luftwaffe needed both. I have also seen references to numerous flaws the original design and prototypes had, for similar reasons.

Ever hear of Operation Downfall?

This is a tangent, but yes.

If Japan hadn't surrendered, we would have used more nuclear bombs, and invaded Japan.

When the US began signifigant production of nuclear weapons (in 1950, I believe) it churned out about 50 a year. I can see about 20 being made in 1946. Alone that is a signifigant force; when merged with the red Army and the Tousand Bomber raids, that is more then enough to bring down germany, with leftovers for Japan.

One of the components of Operation Downfall was Operation Coronet and it
was supposed to begin in November of 1945 and go into 1946.

Tangent again. actually, most sources I have read suggest that Olympic (the initial invasion of japan, Coronet was the followup landing on Honshu; get your facts straight) was on the verge of being canceled. Honestly, the USN can just seal off Japan, while planes destroy transportation infrastructure and industry. Starvation and devastation coming from this will destroy Japan as a nation, effectivly ending hte war.