Sun over Berlin

[037771]

Introduction

"We have emerged from the precipice the foremost of mankind"
- Winston Churchill

The history of the second half of the 20th Century has been centred around Germany- its destruction, its resurrection and the conflict that eventually subsumed the world. Man from 1943 has possessed a technology so wonderful and so terrible that energy, diplomacy, threats of warfare revolve around it. I am of course talking of the Atom Bomb, its use to end the Second World War, and the consequences......

[Adam]

Alright, and...?

[037771]

1934-Italian scientist Enrico Fermi replicates the results of previous experiments by the Curie team in Paris, discovering artificial radioactivity could be induced in stable elements by bombarding them with alpha particles.

December 1938-After bombarding Uranium with neutrons, German scientists Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassmann end up with Barium produced in their experiment. After sending the results to Science Magazine, Lise Meitner and her nephew interpret this as Nuclear Fission.

January 1939- This hypothesis is confirmed in experiment by Otto Frisch, Meitners nephew.

25th January 1939-First nuclear fission experiment conducted in Columbia University, USA.

February 1939- Paris Group finds that during fission in a Uranium nucleus, neutrons are emmited; this could potentially lead to a chain reaction. However they conclude that such a reaction cannot be attempted without a "Moderator" to slow down the emmited neutrons.

September 1939 onwards- Major migration of top European scientists after Nazi Germany invades Poland.

Early 1940- Heavy Water is judged by the Paris Group as being a good Moderator. The Paris Group states to the French Government of the possibilities of Nuclear Fission and compels them to buy large amounts of the Moderator from Norway. The fact that Germany has offered to buy the entire Norwegian stock shows that the Nazis are moving forward in their own Bomb project; Norway hands it over to the French via a secret agent.

April 1940- Norway invaded by Germany

May 1940- France invaded and crushed by Germany; Paris Group flees with the Heavy Water to Great Britain. Subsequent British research confirms that making an Atom Bomb with "natural Uranium" is impossible; however Frisch and another scientist discover that with rare Uranium-238 a Moderator is not needed; the MAUD Committee is set up.

15th July 1941- MAUD Committee issues its final two reports on the feasibity of the use of Uranium in a Bomb and as a source of power. It concludes that (generally) a Bomb would be expensive -£5 million to make a Kg of Uranium 235 per day, and that the construction of such a weapon would absorb a highly skilled workforce that would otherwise be used elsewhere in the war effort. The second report states that a nuclear "boiler" (reactor) is also feasible but irrelevent during the current war. The Commmitee recommends that the scientists Hans von Halban and Lew Kowarski move to the US to aquire large amounts of heavy water, and the project remain in the UK.

Late August 1941- Marcus Oliphant is dispatched across the Atlantic to push an American program into action, due to the fact that Britain would be stretched to provide the manpower or the finances necessary for such a project. His bomber experiences engine trouble, and dives into the sea mid-Atlantic; there are no survivors.

[Markus]

Another "WI Germany is nuked"?

Let´s make it short:
a)Hitler killed: war ends!
b)Hitler not killed: nuke wasted!

[Adam]

Another "WI Germany is nuked"?

Let´s make it short:
a)Hitler killed: war ends!
b)Hitler not killed: nuke wasted!

I want to see where this goes. So far, it looks like the Axis are going to get an atomic bomb too...

[ObssesedNuker]

Another "WI Germany is nuked"?

Let´s make it short:
a)Hitler killed: war ends!
b)Hitler not killed: nuke wasted!

Not nessecarily, it could force the German Generals to overthrow Hitler and sue for peace(which would also not be good).

[Markus]

I want to see where this goes. So far, it looks like the Axis are going to get an atomic bomb too...

How manny billions did the allied programm cost and how many thousands of experts worked on it? Don´t know, but I have a good idea how Germany could come up with the money and manpower: Not at all.

[Adam]

How manny billions did the allied programm cost and how many thousands of experts worked on it? Don´t know, but I have a good idea how Germany could come up with the money and manpower: Not at all.

I know, but I don't care. This TL caught me eye, and I'm interested. I wanna know what happens next.

[alt_historian]

037771: you may want to include a clearly flagged POD with that timeline. For those who know little to nothing about nuclear physics (like myself), there is no way to know what is different and what is the same.

[037771]

September 1941- The Uranium Committee's activities in the US are gradually scaled down. In the aftermath of the death of Oliphant, the British Government had decided to go it alone in the production of an Atomic weapon (In OTL originally the British let the offer of collaboration on an Atom Bomb with the Americans lapse). The MAUD Committee, dissolved after its final two reports is reformed in order to proceed with the construction of a bomb.

June 22nd 1941: Nazi Germany invades the Soviet Union.

December 7th 1941: The Japanese Empire attacks the American Fleet at Pearl Harbour. The US declares war on Japan, and Nazi Germany on the US.

Early 1942: After collaboration with Canada, the Montreal Laboratory is set up.

February 1942: A massive Electromagnetic separation plant is constructed in Canada

March 1942: Causing a diplomatic incident, the Trail US Heavy Water plant in British Columbia is unexpectedly nationalised by the Canadian Government, and all its Heavy Water stores confiscated for use in "Tube Alloys". The US sees this both as a betrayal of mutual trust and a sign that the UK is embarking on its own Atomic Bomb project. However US preparations are stunted due to the heavy water shortage (temporarily) and the lack of overall findings by the MAUD Committee (in OTL, Oliphaunt shared the findings with the US government)

16th September 1942: Enrico Fermi achieves the first self sustaining nuclear reaction.

September 1943: The "York Project" comes under full surveillance by order of the Prime Minister Winston Churchill; almost immediately MI6 identifies Klaus Fuchs, Allan Nunn May and Bruno Pontecorvo as debilitating security risks. The response of the agency is to completely isolate the project and its staff; the spies reseach and work is simply too valuable for the war effort. The project over the preceding months is considered top priority by the British Government, receiving massive funding despite the crippling effect this had on both the Canadian and the British national debts. The fact that espionage is a factor in the race alarms Churchill, who still vetoes cooperation with the USA.

October 1943: Convinced of the necessity for a bomb at the soonest possible date, the project is accelerated.

Early November 1943: British and Canadian scientists produce the first Atomic Bomb. The decision is taken to test the Plutonium Bomb; 80 miles north of Goodsoil, Saskatchewan, the bomb is detonated. The area is laced with high radiation levels, but the test is successful. Two more bombs are subsequently constructed; a Uranium one and a Plutonium are shipped to Britain and India respectively.

December 27th 1943: After practicing special evasion and low night flying maneuvours for a Lancaster Bomber, Air Marshall Arthur Harris implements his plan for a strike on Berlin, to end the war at one fell stroke. He halts the ongoing and costly Battle of Berlin (it is debatable as to the actual scale of the damage inflicted on the capital up to that point). Three aircraft, two specially adapted Spitfires and one Lancaster bomber fly out on the night of the 27th from RAF Biggin Hill; they fly low as to avoid German radar, and re-emerge onto the radar once over Germany. In an extraordinary coincidence Hermann Goering is scheduled on a flight to Berlin from Bavaria; the German Radar stations do not attempt to investigate the RAF warplanes. The planes raise altitude before the bomb is dropped, drop it and turn away. Contemporary accounts describe the night prior as calm, due to the lack of air-raid sirens- many stayed in their living rooms listening to the radio, chatting, or playing games with their children.

[Adam]

Interesting, if a bit too fast for atomic program fruition. I also note an American bias here too.;)

[037771]

December 28th, 1943: At 1:03 AM, the Lancaster and escorting Spitfires increase their altitude radically on their approach; the bomb explodes 70 metres above the Chancellory building. The radius of destruction was 1.6 Miles circular, and within the actual explosion nothing survived. Hitler himself wasnt in this zone, but was interrupted in conversation with his friend Albert Speer in his apartment by a loud rumbling. According to the account delivered by Speer Hitler looked out of the window at the explosion in the short distance, glanced at his watch and back at the window and uttered his last words "Mein Gott, es ist getan" (My God, it is done), before being crushed by masonry in the ensuing shockwave. The explosion triggers massive fires and needless to say enourmous fatalities; many thousands die instantly, and more fall to radiation sickness.
Hermann Goering, on his approach to Berlin witnesses the explosion, but his plane en route to Tempelhof is hit by the shockwave and crashes in nearby parkland; he does not survive. Numerous members of the Nazi intelligentsia including Martin Bormann, Himmler, von Ribbentrop and Fritz Todt are also killed, with Speer later being rescued from the ruins of his apartment building.

December 29th: Winston Churchill, in his famous Midday Announcement states that "Berlin has been obliterated, and the stain of Nazism wiped clean off the face of Europe". This is news to most of Churchills cabinet as well; most of them have been kept in the dark over proceedings. Anthony Eden remarks to Churchill that perhaps it is far too hopeful for the Third Reich to surrender so soon.

January 1st: Prominent Wehrmacht generals led by Field Marshall Rommel, upon hearing of the destruction of Berlin decide amongst themselves that peace must be the priority for the country; "I myself", Rommel said at the Kreisau meeting "would rather live in a Germany that resembled what we have now to a wasteland of rubble and dust". Over the next week, it is agreed through now simply German (the Nazi hierarchy effective decapitated in Berlin) and British diplomats in Berne that Germany unconditionally surrender to the Allied powers, and that the operations cease at midnight, 12th January.

January 13th: German soldiers begin their trek back to the homeland from all across Europe; since they still carry their weapons revenge attacks are minimal throughout occupied Europe, and the iron discipline of the Wehrmacht holds. Rommel has emerged as provisional leader of "Kreisau Germany". Stalin, paralysed by indecision orders his troops not to rush in occupying the Eastern European states, in order to see Churchill play his hand; any plans to impose Soviet totalitarianism on Eastern Europe are scuppered by this as the governments in exile rush to rally their people.

22nd January:
The Empire of Japan, horrified at the extent of destruction in Berlin agree to an unprecented truce with the Allied powers; the British plan to surprise Yokohama with a nuclear weapon (via a specially equipped Lancaster taking off from India and landing in a Soviet airfield, presumably surprising the Russian ground staff) is called off. The US Army and Navy, confident in their safety from nuclear attack move to surround numerous Japanese held islands and move one of their fleets off Tokyo Bay. The Japanese do not know that the aircraft carriers off their coast are not carrying nuclear weapons and are forced into inaction.

Early February: Peace negotiations begin at Geneva and Tokyo.

[037771]

Interesting, if a bit too fast for atomic program fruition. I also note an American bias here too.;)

Its not an offensive bias, honestly. Americans are great; but if you look at the timeline for the Manhattan Project, the Americans did take their time in some things (this may be due to my whole ignorance however)- some of the points are merely bureauocratic issues. In any case, Tube Alloys was pretty darn advanced....im having trouble guaging the reaction of the Americans to the unexpected ending of the war so suddenly.

[Paulo the Limey]

How do you reconcile that the US, with active UK and Canadian participation, couldn't get a bomb ready until mid 1945, but in your scenario the Commonwealth on its own develps and deploys a weapon 2 years earlier?

[037771]

Right. In the real timeline, Oliphaunt goes to the US and convinces the Americans that a bomb is feasible; of course, he goes and dies in a plane crash. Prior to that the scientists already placed in the US to my understanding werent handing over any info to the US. In real timeline (im going to same IRT now) the British actually refused US offers of collaboration over the project. So in my view, Oliphaunts death would leave the US scientists still debating the feasibility of the bomb, while the British forge on ahead at a crippling cost. Moreover, the US have to START to produce Heavy water from the Tenn State Valley hydroelectrics; in British Columbia thats already happening. Besides, i dont think the British or the Canadians are going to stand for pithy US blackmail if the only source is a Hydroelectric plant in British Columbia. Lastly, (bear in mind i am not a physicist) Tube Alloys was pretty advanced; for the British, it was just the funds to carry straight on to an Atom Bomb. Now, i need my sleep; i have to revise for my French GCSE speaking mock.........:D

[Adam]

Hmm, interesting things coming for postwar world, I'd say.

[Shimbo]

Funny, I've been working on a similar timeline. I agree that the basic idea that the Americans would have taken a lot longer to get going without the British MAUD report and Oliphant's visit is correct. I was also using the idea of Canada nationalising Trail and their Uranium mine at Eldorado, thowing another spanner in the works for the US.

However, I'm not sure the British/Canadians could have done so quickly, even if they had put all their eggs in the nuclear basket. Also, they would in the scenario just outlined, have told the US before the attack IMO. In OTL Truman told Stalin, and I'm sure the US and UK are getting on better than that, even if they aren't cooperating on nukes. I presume you pushed it forward to avoid D-Day?

[DuQuense]

How many billions did the allied program cost and how many thousands of experts worked on it? Don´t know, but I have a good idea how Germany could come up with the money and manpower: Not at all.
The Bomb cost 600.000 man years, ?could the UK & Canada afford to pull this many people out of other areas?
[Russia's bomb cost 450.000 man years. Britain's 300.000]

?Would whe have had the Cairo & Tehran conferences?
If so,With the bomb in his hip pocket, Churchill would have been a lot more aggressive in his dealing with Stalin.
The Cairo Conference (codenamed "SEXTANT") of November 22-November 26, 1943, held in Cairo, Egypt, addressed the Allied position against Japan during World War II and made decisions about postwar Asia. The meeting was attended by President Franklin Roosevelt of the United States, Prime Minister Winston Churchill of the United Kingdom, and Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek of the Republic of China. Stalin of the Soviet Union had refused to attend the conference on the grounds that since Chiang Kai-Shek was attending, it would cause untimely provocation between Russia and Japan.

Stalin did meet two days later with Roosevelt and Churchill in Tehran, Iran for the Tehran Conference.

The Cairo Declaration was signed on 27 November 1943 [1], and released in an Cairo Communiqué through radio on 1 December 1943 [2], stating the Allies' intentions to continue deploying military force until Japan's unconditional surrender. The three main clauses of the Cairo Declaration are that "Japan be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the First World War in 1914", "all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China", and that "in due course Korea shall become free and independent".The Tehran Conference (codenamed EUREKA) was the meeting of Joseph Stalin, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill between November 28 and December 1, 1943 in Tehran, Iran. It was the first World War II conference among the Big Three (the Soviet Union, the United States, and the United Kingdom) in which Stalin was present. It succeeded the Cairo Conference and was followed by the Yalta Conference and Potsdam Conference. The chief discussion was centered on the opening of a second front in Western Europe. At the same time a separate protocol pledged the three countries to recognize Iran's independence:

"The Three Governments realize that the war has caused special economic difficulties for Iran, and they are agreed that they will continue to make available to the Government of Iran such economic assistance as may be possible, having regard to the heavy demands made upon them by their world-wide military operations, and to the world-wide shortage of transport, raw materials, and supplies for civilian consumption." (Declaration of the Three Powers Regarding Iran—December 1, 1943)

Most importantly the conference was organized to plan the final strategy for the war against Nazi Germany and its allies.
Here both Germany and Japan still have large forces, in place.
Both of them will have a say in what happens next. Hmm, interesting things coming for postwar world, I'd say.
Especially if the Germans are handing over control to the returning governments in Exile.
?Would this include the Exile Baltic Governments? ?Could they ask the Germans to Stay to prevent the Russians from taking over again?
?Can this Germany hold on to Austria ? If they withdraw to the 1939 Borders, Would Britain Bomb them again to split Germany up.
Interesting if after all this Russia ends up with the 1939 borders.

?Just how scared is Japan? A Japan that holds on to Formosa and korea would be a lot different than OTL's.

[mattep74]

December 28th, 1943: At 1:03 AM, the Lancaster and escorting Spitfires increase their altitude radically on their approach; the bomb explodes 70 metres above the Chancellory building.



Even with dropptanks, does Spitfires have the range to get to Berlin? They never got that far before 1945 iirc

[merlin]

Agreed, the Spitfire escort needs amending, probably to Mosquitos. Also why from Biggin Hill - its in the South. You would need an airfield in Lincolnshire or Yorkshire e.g. Scampton.

[backstab]

December 28th, 1943: At 1:03 AM, the Lancaster and escorting Spitfires increase their altitude radically on their approach; the bomb explodes 70 metres above the Chancellory building. The radius of destruction was 1.6 Miles circular, and within the actual explosion nothing survived. Hitler himself wasnt in this zone, but was interrupted in conversation with his friend Albert Speer in his apartment by a loud rumbling. According to the account delivered by Speer Hitler looked out of the window at the explosion in the short distance, glanced at his watch and back at the window and uttered his last words "Mein Gott, es ist getan" (My God, it is done), before being crushed by masonry in the ensuing shockwave. The explosion triggers massive fires and needless to say enourmous fatalities; many thousands die instantly, and more fall to radiation sickness.
Hermann Goering, on his approach to Berlin witnesses the explosion, but his plane en route to Tempelhof is hit by the shockwave and crashes in nearby parkland; he does not survive. Numerous members of the Nazi intelligentsia including Martin Bormann, Himmler, von Ribbentrop and Fritz Todt are also killed, with Speer later being rescued from the ruins of his apartment building.



How the F**ck could a lone Lancaster survive the flak that berlin would be able to spew out ! not to mention the interceptors...... this stinks of ASB
The only reason that the Yanks were able to drop their bombs in Japan is because they did not have anything to intercept them with or a Air Defence network

[037771]

They think its Goerings plane coming into Berlin....
The whole speed of the project is something i really should have thought off....early 1944 may have been more reasonable, and Biggin Hill is a bad choice.

[Paulo the Limey]

They think its Goerings plane coming into Berlin....
The whole speed of the project is something i really should have thought off....early 1944 may have been more reasonable, and Biggin Hill is a bad choice.

Yeah, I think a lot more research and detail needs adding to this timeline before it starts appearing plausible.

[037771]

March 20th 1944- Terms of the Treaty of Geneva: Germany must return to her pre-war borders. The governments of the former occupied nations must be respected. Alsace and Lorraine are to be returned to France, the Saar given to France. Germany is placed under Allied occupation until it is decided what to do with the defeated nation; the Morgenthau Plan is rejected by the British. Nevertheless, extensive reparations in the form of forced labour, industrial capacity and gold reserves. Ethnic Germans across Europe and the Soviet Union are forcibly repatriated to Germany. Austria is to be forcibly separated from Germany. By the end of April British troops occupy the north of Germany, the Americans the south and the Soviets the east. Poland is moved west by the provisions of the Tehran Conference the previous year. The Kreisau Council is placed in nominal charge of German Administration until de-Nazification can begin.

March 25th- The Tokyo Accords. Japan is emasculated, her territories conquered the two years previously returned to the great powers, her islands given to her after WW1 given to the US, Korea made independent, Taiwan given to the Republic of China and Manchuria given also the RoC. . Japan is placed under joint occupation with the Americans and the British, the Soviets having not declared war on Japan (the accords were somewhat rushed by the Japanese, while the Red Army was transfered from western Russia to the east). Generals Macarthur and Slim preside over Japanese occupation.

[DuQuense]

With only Berlin destroyed and two hundred Divisions still avalible Germany would not agree to this,

Neither would Japan,

You need to give Germany and Japan Something, or they will both continue the War.

Maybe Germany return to 1939 borders, Demilitarizes, and gives all extra equipment to Poland, & Norway.

Japan returns to its 1930 borders minus the Pacific Islands, and demilitarizes. [loses Manchuria]

Also the US and Britain had planned to install a Military Government in Vichy France.

So what happens with the German Allies -Vichy -Italy - Romania - Hungary.

[1940LaSalle]

I have a few technological/engineering questions:

First, what's the nature of the so-called "electromagnetic" process for separating U-235 from U-238? As far as I know, uranium and the other actinides are not ferromagnetic. Even today, the best technology for separating the fissionable isotope from the non-fissionable isotope is a centrifugation process using uranium hexafluoride.

Second, what is this so-called "tube alloys" and how/why would it use heavy water? I've not seen a reference to this before--but that could simply be because I've missed it.

[Adam]

Second, what is this so-called "tube alloys" and how/why would it use heavy water? I've not seen a reference to this before--but that could simply be because I've missed it.

Wikipedia is your friend now. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys)

[Shimbo]

I have a few technological/engineering questions:

First, what's the nature of the so-called "electromagnetic" process for separating U-235 from U-238? As far as I know, uranium and the other actinides are not ferromagnetic. Even today, the best technology for separating the fissionable isotope from the non-fissionable isotope is a centrifugation process using uranium hexafluoride.

Second, what is this so-called "tube alloys" and how/why would it use heavy water? I've not seen a reference to this before--but that could simply be because I've missed it.

Tube Alloys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys)was the British atom bomb project and until 1942, more advanced than the US one. As the TL correctly states IMO, the visit of Oliphant to the USA with the British report into the feasibility of the bomb (the MAUD report) was the critical kick start to the US bomb project. That's why the PoD is his flight crashing.

Heavy water is used as a moderator in nuclear reactors in the same way that Fermi used super-pure graphite.

The electromagnetic separation thing I think is maybe a mistake, perhaps he means isotopic separation?

[037771]

With only Berlin destroyed and two hundred Divisions still avalible Germany would not agree to this,

Neither would Japan,

You need to give Germany and Japan Something, or they will both continue the War.

Maybe Germany return to 1939 borders, Demilitarizes, and gives all extra equipment to Poland, & Norway.

Japan returns to its 1930 borders minus the Pacific Islands, and demilitarizes. [loses Manchuria]

Also the US and Britain had planned to install a Military Government in Vichy France.

So what happens with the German Allies -Vichy -Italy - Romania - Hungary.

With Berlin destroyed, ive killed off most of the Nazi High Command. Im also assuming that with that, chaos effectively reigns in Germany; the gauleiters have no boss anymore, and the generals are really the only people protecting the Reich from the Allies. Now, the government is effectively decapitated, and Rommel takes charge. He was a popular man, famed for his exploits in North Africa; he was considered chivalrous (war without hate) and a formidable general. It is he that has the popular support among the German people, and it is he (judging from his actions during the Stauffenberg Plot) who starts to believe that the war cannot be won. 1943 is the year that this starts to convince many Germans in the military that Hitler is leading them to ruin. Of course, nuke Berlin and your ideas are justified and more, especially if you dont know that Britain has more nuclear weapons, as indeed Japan did. Of course, the same sense of urgency may not be within the Japanese mindset, but of course if Britain or indeed the US has a stockpile, then the war would end ruinously. Remember, the US bombed Tokyo in 1941- that was surprising to the Japanese. For your last point, i planned to create several other treaty's, like WW1....

[037771]

Wikipedia is your friend now. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys)

Thanks for that! :):):):)

[037771]

Overview of the state of the Allies:
Post-Berlin Great Britain, while the most powerful military nation with the Atom Bomb was financially crippled by its cost on the National Debt. Infrastructure was damaged hugely by German bombing in 1940-42. In fact, Britain got out of the war very little, bar the Atomic Bomb and its technology as well as the distinction of holding out alone against Hitler and finally destroying him utterly.
The Soviet Union fared far worse; it had won crucial battles at Stalingrad and Kursk and inflicted the lions share of German casualties but its infrastructure too had been wrecked, and 18-20 million of its soldiers and civilians dead at the hands of the Nazis. Moreover the return of the Governments-in-exile from London blocked Soviet attempts to impose Communism in Eastern Europe bar war, something Stalin didnt even think of while the Red Army was stuck on the frontiers, Britain had the bomb and the USSR didnt.
The US emerged economically strengthened from the war but a general feeling of apathy emerged concerning the subject of the war; many Americans viewed the European war as an unnecessary intervention of the part of its President, and from then on the Americans retreated ever so slowly back into semi-isolationism.....

[037771]

Should Roosevelt be deposed in 1944 by the Republican candidate? Would Churchill win a 1944 election? Or would the Labour landslide remain? Any ideas on Soviet policy?

[Ynnead]

trust me FDR would win in 44 in this situation. as for chruchill, I think he would but I am not sure

[037771]

Thanks. As for Churchill im undecided; he could win on ending the war so promptly, but Attlee could by calling for social changes. Of course Churchill could reveal the extent of the debt, but Attlee might just blame Conservative mismanagement for that. Really far fetched scenario is that Churchill lets the election take its course and maybe Attlee wins, cant implement policies and Tories are back in. Or Attlee could default on the massive post-war debt.....

[CalBear]

Even with dropptanks, does Spitfires have the range to get to Berlin? They never got that far before 1945 iirc

No.

The Mustang was the first single engine fighter with that sort of range.

[CalBear]

How does a smaller, less well funded, less well positioned & staffed project even gather the necessary fissible material, particularly plutonium which requires a breeder reactor for creation by 1943 (especially considering that Fermi was only 2.5 months ahead of OTL in this scenario)?

While not impossible, it is utterly unlikely.

From a tactical perspective, to send a bomber containing a secret weapon into a heavily defended location (where aircraft are being lost in massive numbers) in the hopes of delivering the weapon and not providing it to Reich researchers is also borderline insane.

You also have vastly underestimated 1) the strength of the German air defenses, including both flak and fighters; 2) the ability of the Luftwaffe to track aircraft by ground personnel, even without radar; & 3) the ability to fly very low in WW II aircraft, as likely as not the Lancaster winds up as burned garnish on some German farmer's land. BTW: Did notice that, in order to reach Berlin from the UK, you have to overfly almost all of Germany as well as German occuppied territory?

Overall, this scenario doesn't explain how, by dividing resources, and eliminating the partner with the MONEY, the British part of Manhattan manages to succeed. It also doesn't explain how, without the U.S., a plutonium implosion weapn was ever developed (this is rather important since virtually the entire implosion theory, from concept to mathematic proof was the result of American, or immigrant American, scientists; the exception to this is James Tuck who came up with the shaped charge method).

Seems to be a few holes here.

[CalBear]

Overview of the state of the Allies:
Post-Berlin Great Britain, while the most powerful military nation with the Atom Bomb was financially crippled by its cost on the National Debt. Infrastructure was damaged hugely by German bombing in 1940-42. In fact, Britain got out of the war very little, bar the Atomic Bomb and its technology as well as the distinction of holding out alone against Hitler and finally destroying him utterly.
The Soviet Union fared far worse; it had won crucial battles at Stalingrad and Kursk and inflicted the lions share of German casualties but its infrastructure too had been wrecked, and 18-20 million of its soldiers and civilians dead at the hands of the Nazis. Moreover the return of the Governments-in-exile from London blocked Soviet attempts to impose Communism in Eastern Europe bar war, something Stalin didnt even think of while the Red Army was stuck on the frontiers, Britain had the bomb and the USSR didnt.
The US emerged economically strengthened from the war but a general feeling of apathy emerged concerning the subject of the war; many Americans viewed the European war as an unnecessary intervention of the part of its President, and from then on the Americans retreated ever so slowly back into semi-isolationism.....

And, of course, stomping the guts out of Japan, did nothing for the American understanding of the need for defense.

[Shimbo]

How does a smaller, less well funded, less well positioned & staffed project even gather the necessary fissible material, particularly plutonium which requires a breeder reactor for creation by 1943 (especially considering that Fermi was only 2.5 months ahead of OTL in this scenario)?

While not impossible, it is utterly unlikely.

From a tactical perspective, to send a bomber containing a secret weapon into a heavily defended location (where aircraft are being lost in massive numbers) in the hopes of delivering the weapon and not providing it to Reich researchers is also borderline insane.

You also have vastly underestimated 1) the strength of the German air defenses, including both flak and fighters; 2) the ability of the Luftwaffe to track aircraft by ground personnel, even without radar; & 3) the ability to fly very low in WW II aircraft, as likely as not the Lancaster winds up as burned garnish on some German farmer's land. BTW: Did notice that, in order to reach Berlin from the UK, you have to overfly almost all of Germany as well as German occuppied territory?

Overall, this scenario doesn't explain how, by dividing resources, and eliminating the partner with the MONEY, the British part of Manhattan manages to succeed. It also doesn't explain how, without the U.S., a plutonium implosion weapn was ever developed (this is rather important since virtually the entire implosion theory, from concept to mathematic proof was the result of American, or immigrant American, scientists; the exception to this is James Tuck who came up with the shaped charge method).

Seems to be a few holes here.

I've posted before my opinion that the British (with Canadian help) could have produced a bomb without the USA, however, this timescale is IMO much too aggressive. I'd say it would have taken them till '46 or '47 by which time the war would be over anyway.

On the Berlin raid, sending the bomb as part of a normal raid would seem more sensible. Loss rates in the OTL Battle of Berlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin_%28air%29) were about 6% so you have a 94% chance of success which is IMO acceptable (actually more as some of the casualties would be on the way back from the target and with one vitally important Lancaster you could maybe use Mosquitos to protect it and the rest of the force to screen it.)

On the only remotely equivalent low-level night raid was Operation Chastise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise) which resulted in 1/3 of the force being shot down or hitting power lines before reaching the target. And that was against practically undefended targets.

[DuQuense]

Should Roosevelt be deposed in 1944 by the Republican candidate? trust me FDR would win in 44 in this situation
I don't think that With the War over, Roosevelt would run again.
He had Health Problems, and only ran in '40 & '44 due to the War.

[Wet Mogwai]

I have a few technological/engineering questions:

First, what's the nature of the so-called "electromagnetic" process for separating U-235 from U-238? As far as I know, uranium and the other actinides are not ferromagnetic.


This is the cyclotron separation method. Iron doesn't enter into it. I don't remember the exact physics behind it, but the cyclotron is a particle accelerator. It accelerates the Uranium atoms. They settle into different piles based on mass. IIRC, this is not efficient, but it was the method used at Oak Ridge early on. Huge cyclotrons were built for this task.

[Hnau]

I definitely like the idea of an earlier Allied nuclear weapon being dropped on Germany, but this timeline needs to be reworked to be made more plausible. With surrender by January 1, 1944, the Soviets are going to see very little of German occupation. Also, the Allies (except for Stalin) are going to pity the Nazis much more: an entire year and a half of carnage never took place, and there is that devastated city in the press. While they aren't going to be extremely polite, occupation is going to be a couple of degrees less severe than in OTL, and the official treaty the same. I wonder if the Oder River will be used as the border, all the way to the border of Czechoslovakia, giving Germany a little bit more territory and preventing the drastic population transfers of OTL. Hmmm...

[037771]

Ill do a mark II of this, cos too many people are crying about the 1943 bombing, some technical details etc. With your point on treating the Nazis better, i disagree; the revealment of the death camps might have horrified the Allies a tad.

[alt_historian]

Right. In the real timeline, Oliphaunt goes to the US and convinces the Americans that a bomb is feasible; of course, he goes and dies in a plane crash.

Right - upon re-reading it, I picked that up. Thanks anyway. I look forward to v2.0///

[Shimbo]

As minor point for your Mk2 version, most of the German Jewish scientists left Germany in 1933-35 not 1939 (although the Paris Group left France in 1940 and Niels Bohr didn't leave Denmark until 1943).

[Karlos]

I don't think a still powerfull Whermatch would allow the soviets to step into East Prussia or any german land, no matter what city has been obliterated in the Reich. Sure, the germans would agree to peace in the west, and even retreat from all conquered territories, but never in the east. It was not about politics or diplomatic moves, it was an extermination war.
And who is going to stop the soviets to get in force into Poland, Romania, Hungary... with or without germans there, and impose their will? Is Churchill going to bomb the soviets too?

[037771]

I really believe that if Churchill wanted to stop Soviet encroachment onto Eastern Europe, he would. Wouldnt invade Russia though; thats just stupid, and Britain would still be weak after the war.