Buddy Holly's plane doesn't Crash

[David M.]

What will his musical career be like?


But also consider....

No American Pie! :eek:

[Thande]

Not forgetting Richie Valens and J.P. 'the Big Bopper' Richardson, of course.

[Xen]

The Big Bopper will fade into obscurity as a one hit wonder and die of a heart attack in 1973.

Richie Valens has a few more hits in the early 1960s, but is eventually pushed out of the rock genre by more progressive rock music. He remains a Latino sensation well into the 1980s when he finally retires to Southern California.

Buddy Holly becomes rocks greatest star in the early 1960's, due to this the Beatles, while hugely popular, arent as highly touted. Buddy Holly does get a chance to meet the fab four and takes a liking to them, covering one of their songs 'She was just 17'. Holly gets caught up in the movements of the 1960s, supporting Civil Rights and protesting Vietnam and is introduced to recreational drugs while visiting with John Lennon in London. Holly experiments with his music releasing several highly anticipated singles and a hit album in 1968.

In 1971 Holly is arrested in Chicago for possession of illegal drugs, which costs him his marriage. He checks into rehab and gets cleaned up. In 1973 Holly returns to his rockabilly roots releasing an album that is a commercial flop. He marries a playboy playmate in 1975, having three children with her. He releases a couple of marginally successful records in the 1970s, and becomes to Atlantic City what Elvis is to Las Vegas.

When John Lennon is shot and killed in 1980, Holly announces he is retiring from music. Holly writes and performs a tribute to the slain Beatle, and only performs at benefit shows throughout the decade. In 1988 Holly reemerges into the spotlight by stumping for Michael Dukakis, but retreats back to his Atlantic City home after Dukakis is defeated. In 1992 Holly is found dead by his wife, cause of death is determined to be accidental prescription drug overdose.


The song American Pie is still written, instead of Holly the song is more focused on JFK.

[Thande]

Buddy Holly becomes rocks greatest star in the early 1960's, due to this the Beatles, while hugely popular, arent as highly touted. Buddy Holly does get a chance to meet the fab four and takes a liking to them, covering one of their songs 'She was just 17'.
I think you're not taking into account the level that the Beatles were influenced by Holly by this point anyway - the first song they recorded as the Quarrymen in 1960 was a cover of Holly's That'll Be The Day, albeit translated into Northern ;) and they released covers of some other songs of his, such as Words of Love and Love is Strange. Lennon also said that Holly strongly influenced his own stage image, particularly the fact that he wore glasses in the early years. So I think there'll be more hero worship when they meet, a bit like how George Harrison treated Roy Orbison when they worked together as the Traveling Wilburys.

[Timmy811]

In one of the GURPS alternate universes Buddy Holly becomes an influential U.S. Senator IIRC.

[nothri]

Sorry for the thread resurrection.

The GURPS world is called "Holly", in which the plane never crashes. The Big Bopper is in Congress, a lot of unspecified performers that suffered violent ends in our world are still alive in this one. The brief blurb presents it as a "rock and roll lover's dream world".

Speaking of GURPS, they had this to say on speculation of alternate earths involving Buddy Holly:

"The obvious change in Buddy Holly's life would be not to end it early, but to prolong it. When he died, he was starting to develop a more complex sound; rock could have matured more quickly through his contributions. His willingness to write for other performers would have helped this. He had also started to think about getting involved in the business side, as a producer; a chain of studios which he ran could have given greater emphasis to the performer's ideas and hastened the emergence of rock as a vehicle for personal statements."

"How would he have dealt with the social crises of the 1960s? It seems likely that he would have supported the civil rights movement. Perhaps the decade would have been remembered more for idealism and less for nihilism, had he lived to see it."

[phx1138]

The Big Bopper will fade into obscurity as a one hit wonder and die of a heart attack in 1973.
He won't be missed by me.:rolleyes:
Richie Valens has a few more hits in the early 1960s, but is eventually pushed out of the rock genre by more progressive rock music. He remains a Latino sensation well into the 1980s when he finally retires to Southern California.
I wonder why he doesn't lead the wave in Tejano. I'm picturing him doing a variation on Linda Ronstadt's Mi Canciones ("Songs of my father"), & beating Selena & Jennifer Lopez & Gloria Estefan to #1 by decades.:cool::cool: Or, what about him following Dick Dale & creating a Latin surf sound? Or Latin country, in the fashion of The Fabulous Thunderbirds, or a Latinized Eagles?
Buddy Holly becomes rocks greatest star in the early 1960's
He seemed like he was pretty innovative musically. What are the odds of him adopting Latin rhythms & combining it with rockabilly, & coming out sounding a bit like Eagles or Poco?
In 1971 Holly is arrested in Chicago for possession of illegal drugs
I see Holly as such a square, he wouldn't do it. He's not Johnny Cash...
In 1992 Holly is found dead by his wife, cause of death is determined to be accidental prescription drug overdose.
Why am I seeing Elvis...?:confused:

If Holly lives, does he do protest music around Vietnam? Being middle class, white, & Texan, I'd expect him to be taking the Charlie Daniels position: supporting the vets, not opposing the war. Holly does "Still in Saigon"?:cool:

If his career is longer, I also see room for more really rockin' covers by Linda.:cool::cool:

Something to consider: if they don't die, a lot of careers are going to be affected. There were at least a couple of artists who got their starts filling the now empty slots. Also, the Crickets went solo; would they break up or go their separate ways anyhow?

[Shogo]

Pretty sure Buddy Holly wouldn't descend into drugs.

His child might have been born if he hadn't died. The shock of Holly's death is supposed to be what provoked his wife's miscarriage. (Which must have been beyond tragic. Losing your husband and then immediately losing your unborn child? Fuuuuuuuck.)

Man. I hope this doesn't prevent Six String Samurai from being made.

[Kalvan]

Trying this for the second time:

1: Buddy Holly will go country by 1960 at the latest. His diary said so. This will alienate most of the Liverpool "Merseybeat" scene, causing them to go to skiffle, thus aborting 2/3 of the British Invasion, including the Beatles, though not the London Blues Rock scene of the Stones, the Who, Ten Years After, or Peter Green era Fleetwood Mac. Bob Dilyan will record either at Sun Records (resulting in a feud with Jerry Lee Lewis) or else under Holly, and either way, won't write any of the early songs he's famous for and won'd be credited with inventing Folk Rock, Neil Young will be instead.

To keep a hold of his crown as King of Rock and Roll, Elvis will be forced between late 1957 and 1960 to tour in Europe or watch his star fall back to normal. Nazi War Criminal "Col," well, Waffen SS-Oberführer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Oberf%C3%BChrer) "Tom Parker" will be more thuroughly exposed to Interopl and/or Mossad and be picked up for trial, which can only have salutory effects on Mr. Presley's later health and career.

Under Holly's influence, Outlaw Country and Southern Rock will be even bigger and last longer, possibly even even into 1983, and only finally be eclipsed by the "New Countrypolitan" of George Strait et al and the first wave of Hair Metal of Quiet Riot and Motley Crue, respectively. In the Nineties, Holly will denounce Wheezer and possibly other Geek Rockers like They Might Be Giants and Post-Out of Time REM as a bunch of "Frauds" and "Plagiarists" in much the same way that Joannie Mitchell has denounced the likes of Natalie Merchant, Dido, Allanis Morrisette, Fiona Apple, Michelle Branch, and even Gwen Stefani and Halley Williams, and John Lytton and Billy Strummer have denounced Green Day, Blink 193, Sum 41, and My Chemical Romance! Holly will also have some rather salty things to say about the Ninties "Young Country" of Garth Brooks, Wade Hayes, Billy Ray Cyrus, Tricia Yearwood, and Leanne Rimes.

2: Valens will fade out by 1965, but not before killing the final flowering of Acoustic Salsa, aborting Electric Salsa entirely, and significantly wounding Latin Jazz. On the other hand, he will have probably plowed the fields enough that the world is ready for Carlos Santanna thirty years early. And the first wave of Latin Metal will probably happen twenty years early, during the Classic Metal era of KISS, Aerosmith, Blue Oyster Cult, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppellin, and Jethro Tull. Could this possibly butterfly Saturday Night Fever into a turkey that sinks Travolta's career?

3: The Big Bopper was a one-hit wonder in the making, but something tells me he'll join Sha-Na-Na just in time for Woodstock, lending them both some musical historical credit it still wouldn't deserve as he is a legitimate if tangential member of Rock's founding generation, and vice versa. He later ends up as a DJ on a Miami-area Oldies station. If the world is lucky, he becomes an East Coast "Dr. Demento," but I wouldn't hold my breath. More likely he starves onthe street or languishes in a nursing home after Clear Channel takes over "his" station and throws him out on his rear.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

No one outside of north central iowa will ever have heard of the crystal ballroom, and it will have gone under by now.

Maybe even Clear Lake would be swallowed up as a suburb of Mason city.

[JMT]

Jesus Christ, the Necro...

[Emperor Norton I]

I thought this was an exciting and new thread. But its a necro. :(

[phx1138]

I thought this was an exciting and new thread. But its a necro. :(
Honestly, some people do nothing but complain...:mad:

Don't start new threads on old topics. Don't revive old ones.

So if you've got something new to say on an old subject, shut up & go away?:mad:

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Honestly, some people do nothing but complain...:mad:

Don't start new threads on old topics. Don't revive old ones.

So if you've got something new to say on an old subject, shut up & go away?:mad:
No. You start a new thread, and link to the old one(s). That way people can go look at what had been said previously.

[The Ubbergeek]

Honestly, some people do nothing but complain...:mad:

Don't start new threads on old topics. Don't revive old ones.

So if you've got something new to say on an old subject, shut up & go away?:mad:

Re-starting a related thread is always ok, unless it's controversial stuff or such. Remaking a thread from scratches and all. Linking to old thread if wished.

[Timmy811]

Jesus Christ, the Necro...

Necroing is perfectly fine if the person doing it has something worthwhile to say.

[ND4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4P_qAMAnKs

The lyric about Buddy Holly would get removed if he doesn't die I presume.

[Mark E.]

When the founding fathers of rock and roll made their mark, most of the impact came in their first two or three years. After all, when Chuck Berry went to prison in 1962, he wasn’t missed.

By the end of 1958, rock music was under attack by conservatives for being “evil.” That could explain why Holly might have considered country music for a while. He and Waylon Jennings could have trended “country rock.”

Buddy Holly, though, has the distinction of making a two-punch impact on the evolution of popular music, as the Beatles embraced his style. Even the name Beatles reflects Buddy Holly’s former back-up band, the Crickets.

With Buddy Holly alive, the Quarrymen might have been less aggressive at adopting his style. How different they would have sounded is a matter of speculation.

Consider how they might have interacted. How would Buddy Holly have reacted to the Quarrymen’s hair styles and the upcoming counterculture movement? Suppose Buddy Holly was brushed wrong by some of John Lennon’s political expressions?

[ColeMercury]

The thing about the "Buddy Holly will go country" thing is that there's a good chance he'd shift styles again. Hmm, maybe he could reinvent himself several times over like Dylan.

[DanMcCollum]

This reminds me of a conversation I had at a houseparty some time ago. I was talking with a friend, when mentioned this POD. We were talking about the possibility of a psychedelic Buddy Holly. My friend mentioned that in that case, he may not have been born. He asked, would it be worth not having him around? Everyone in the party, look around, and said "YES!" Poor guy :)

[flippikat]

This reminds me of a conversation I had at a houseparty some time ago. I was talking with a friend, when mentioned this POD. We were talking about the possibility of a psychedelic Buddy Holly. My friend mentioned that in that case, he may not have been born. He asked, would it be worth not having him around? Everyone in the party, look around, and said "YES!" Poor guy :)

On the other hand a Buddy Holly that's quirky, but bypasses hippie values could get 'geek-rock' moving along faster than OTL where it had to wait for Talking Heads and Devo to break through.

[phx1138]

If Holly lives longer, what are the chances he discovers less-popular black artists & covers their songs? Robert Johnson comes to mind, but there are surely others. Also, what happens when other artists cover his work? Like, frex, Johnny Cash, or the Stones?

[Kalvan]

Consider how they might have interacted. How would Buddy Holly have reacted to the Quarrymen’s hair styles and the upcoming counterculture movement? Suppose Buddy Holly was brushed wrong by some of John Lennon’s political expressions?

A living Buddy Holly would mean that the group that would have been OTL called the Beatles would have turned to skiffle in anger of Holly's going country, and would be even more of a niche market in North America than Frankie Yankovich and his Yanks. Holly would have about as much cause to care about John Lennon's politics as he would have those of Guido Henkel or Django Reinhardt.

[Mark E.]

Also, what happens when other artists cover his work? Like, frex, Johnny Cash, or the Stones?

Nothing changes. The cover artists simply pay royalties and share the profits. Actually, very few artists actually see or manage royalties; they generally sell their rights to the record publisher on terms based on their popularity and bargaining power. Only after songs make their runs and remain very, very popular do royalties become a lucrative business. For example, in the eighties, Paul McCartney bought, as an investment, the rights to Buddy Holly's music.

Some artists set up their own record companies the way the Beatles established Apple records. When you compare four recording artists to the staff of a record company and manufacturing issues, you can see how the businesses are different.

[phx1138]

Nothing changes. The cover artists simply pay royalties and share the profits. Actually, very few artists actually see or manage royalties; they generally sell their rights to the record publisher on terms based on their popularity and bargaining power. Only after songs make their runs and remain very, very popular do royalties become a lucrative business. For example, in the eighties, Paul McCartney bought, as an investment, the rights to Buddy Holly's music.

Some artists set up their own record companies the way the Beatles established Apple records. When you compare four recording artists to the staff of a record company and manufacturing issues, you can see how the businesses are different.
I did know that.

I meant, from a cultural standpoint... For instance, the people who heard "That'll be the Day" first when Linda Ronstadt did it. So Cash fans, frex, might be hearing a country version, instead...

Don't forget, there was a lot less "stovepiping" in the '50s than now.

[Alien and Sedition Bat]

The lyrics to "American Pie" never get written; no Chevy to the levee.

[Mark E.]

The lyrics to "American Pie" never get written; no Chevy to the levee.
The world doesn't get American Pie but it gets more Buddy Holly songs.

Buddy Holly died only a year and a half after his first hit release. Even if he briefly moved to country in 1959, it would still be five years before the British Invasion changed contemporary music.

Suppose Buddy Holly makes a style shift around 1961 or 1962 that sort of "steals the thunder" from the OTL Beatles. Instead of an "invasion," you have a more gradual "British immigration" new-style music. The Quarrymen will still have their raw talent. They just won't make the sudden impact they did in January, 1964.

[Osakadave]

I wonder why he doesn't lead the wave in Tejano. I'm picturing him doing a variation on Linda Ronstadt's Mi Canciones ("Songs of my father"), & beating Selena & Jennifer Lopez & Gloria Estefan to #1 by decades.:cool::cool: Or, what about him following Dick Dale & creating a Latin surf sound? Or Latin country, in the fashion of The Fabulous Thunderbirds, or a Latinized Eagles?

I could see that pretty easily.

He seemed like he was pretty innovative musically. What are the odds of him adopting Latin rhythms & combining it with rockabilly, & coming out sounding a bit like Eagles or Poco?

He was working on an album of all Spanish songs before he died. He was also working on recording with Ray Charles and Mahalia Jackson. While I can see him doing country, I really can't see him doing only country.

His child might have been born if he hadn't died. The shock of Holly's death is supposed to be what provoked his wife's miscarriage. (Which must have been beyond tragic. Losing your husband and then immediately losing your unborn child? Fuuuuuuuck.)

Edit: got inturtupted and didn't finish this one.

Indeed. This resulted in media and official policies of notifying next of kin before making public announcements. That policy will very come down sometime, but over who knows what?


Trying this for the second time:

1: Buddy Holly will go country by 1960 at the latest. His diary said so. This will alienate most of the Liverpool "Merseybeat" scene, causing them to go to skiffle, thus aborting 2/3 of the British Invasion, including the Beatles, though not the London Blues Rock scene of the Stones, the Who, Ten Years After, or Peter Green era Fleetwood Mac. Bob Dilyan will record either at Sun Records (resulting in a feud with Jerry Lee Lewis) or else under Holly, and either way, won't write any of the early songs he's famous for and won'd be credited with inventing Folk Rock, Neil Young will be instead.

Not sure if I buy this, as, like I said above, I can't see Holly doing exclusively country to the point of alienating Liverpool entierly.

No one outside of north central iowa will ever have heard of the crystal ballroom, and it will have gone under by now.

Maybe even Clear Lake would be swallowed up as a suburb of Mason city.

My little bro and I have been talking about hitting the Winter Dance Party this coming Febuary at the Surf Ballroom, since it's only a few hours drive.

[phx1138]

I could see that pretty easily.
:cool: TY.:)
He was working on an album of all Spanish songs before he died. He was also working on recording with Ray Charles and Mahalia Jackson. While I can see him doing country, I really can't see him doing only country.
Coming out of Texas, if he didn't at least think about it, I'd be very surprised. Also, contrary to now, there was a lot less "stovepiping" back in the day: artists didn't stick to genres like they tend to now, & record companies didn't demand it (or seem not to) as much.

A popular album of all-Spanish music, even translated, is going to help promote tejano/ norteño (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norte%C3%B1o_(music)), plus promote the original artists, just as the Stones & Beatles did with his stuff.:cool:

It's likely also to offer new sounds to rocckabilly & country, much like Johnny Cash did with the mariachi horn sound on "Ring of Fire".:cool:
Not sure if I buy this, as, like I said above, I can't see Holly doing exclusively country to the point of alienating Liverpool entierly.
Agreed. However, even if he goes country, what's to say the Beatles (& Stones, & others) don't listen to his Spanish-influenced stuff & cover some of it? And end up exposed to a whole new style?

Does this impact the rise of reggae in pop at all? I'm wondering if Clapton might not go Latin, instead. (If it means "I Shot the Sheriff" is never heard from, I'd be happy.:rolleyes:)

[Mark E.]

If Buddy Holly had experimented with different types of music, be it country, Latin or rhythm-and-blues, it would add to the depth of contemporary music of the early sixties, not detract from it. The British rock scene continues as in OTL, but it is easy to imagine a more gradual integration than the British invasion.

[The B]

Perhaps he would elevate from his position as one of the most overlooked musicians ever.

[Shogo]

Just for minor differences involving other musicians . . . Elton John might have a somewhat different image.

Supposedly he took to wearing glasses as a kind of tribute to Holly. Which screwed up his vision enough for them to go from a stylistic choice to something he needed. (Though this could just be an unfounded rumor.)

I'm also not 100% sure he horribly alienates the British music scene. I mean, a big part of his popularity there was that he was one of the only American musicians that even bothered to do tours in the UK.

[phx1138]

Just for minor differences involving other musicians . . . Elton John might have a somewhat different image.
Here's one for you: Holly gets contact lenses, & Elton never adopts the trademark (crazy:eek:) glasses.
I'm also not 100% sure he horribly alienates the British music scene.
I really doubt it. They might not follow his lead, but what musician doesn't listen to other artists? If only to know what's being done, & what might be done. Or for new sounds, new instruments, new riffs...

[Mark E.]

I think Elton John had such bad vision that contact lenses would not be an option. Besides, he did not debut until 1970, well past the "British invasion" years and beyond any fashion influence from the fifties.

[phx1138]

I think Elton John had such bad vision that contact lenses would not be an option
Not to begin with, apparently. And I meant Holly getting contacts, not Elton.
beyond any fashion influence from the fifties.
Not if he's consciously emulating Holly...:rolleyes:

[Paul V McNutt]

On the orginal Othertimelines someone wrote a TL that Holly being the only survivor of the planecrash. He then became an evangelist.It ended in 1999 on the 40th of the crash, when he dedicated a memorial to the Big Bopper and Ritchie Valenz.

[Mark E.]

If Buddy Holly is to make another significant contributions to the direction of music, it has to be before the British Invasion, if there is still one.

Suppose Buddy Holly tries his hand at country-western in 1959 and doesn’t sell well. In 1961, with a second child on the way, he wants a change of venue and moves to England for a few years. Then, in 1962 his popularity picks up and he decides to continue American tours. This time, it’s not Clear Lake, Iowa, but New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. Suppose Holly brings a British band as an opening act. Pick a band or compose one.

Also think about who might play in Holly’s own band. The Crickets left him because they weren’t getting a good deal. Waylon Jennings and the others would part after a lackluster country album. He probably would have a transient band, maybe with some impressive names coming and going.

[Osakadave]

If Buddy Holly is to make another significant contributions to the direction of music, it has to be before the British Invasion, if there is still one.

Suppose Buddy Holly tries his hand at country-western in 1959 and doesn’t sell well. In 1961, with a second child on the way, he wants a change of venue and moves to England for a few years. Then, in 1962 his popularity picks up and he decides to continue American tours. This time, it’s not Clear Lake, Iowa, but New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. Suppose Holly brings a British band as an opening act. Pick a band or compose one.

Also think about who might play in Holly’s own band. The Crickets left him because they weren’t getting a good deal. Waylon Jennings and the others would part after a lackluster country album. He probably would have a transient band, maybe with some impressive names coming and going.

I once read a comment to the effect that the best way to aquire a really good jazz collection was to buy a Miles Davis album from each decade of his career, then buy an album by each of his sidemen from each of those albums. Maybe that will be said of Holly ITTL (subbing country or rock for jazz). :)

[phx1138]

I once read a comment to the effect that the best way to aquire a really good jazz collection was to buy a Miles Davis album from each decade of his career, then buy an album by each of his sidemen from each of those albums. Maybe that will be said of Holly ITTL (subbing country or rock for jazz). :)
Could be. I get the sense that kind of "fluidity" in the sidemen was unique to jazz (or jazz & blues), not so in C/W, R&R, rockabilly, or bluegrass, which is where Holly's coming from (or going).

[Emperor Norton I]

I have to work this out of my system.

"Chantilly lace, propeller to my face"

"We're flying into a What? We're crashin' into a What?"

[phx1138]

"Chantilly lace, propeller to my face"

"We're flying into a What? We're crashin' into a What?"
LOL. (Does this mean we both have a sick sense of humor?:eek::p )

Your scansion is off on "propeller", tho: one syllable too many.;)

[Romantic Nihilist]

If Buddy Holly went Country, I could imagine him working with Whiskeytown/Ryan Adams in the 90's.

If the tide turns against him in the 70's, I can imagine in '78 or '79 he'll release an album similar to Marianne Faithful's Broken English.

In the 90's, he'd retire from performing and becomes a producer.

[nothri]

Jesus Christ, the Necro...

No see, if we were writing an alternate history about Jesus being raised from the dead by a necromancer it would go in the "before 1900" thread.

[Lurksalot]

Marilyn Monroe dies on the way to a Holly benefit concert at the Hollywood Bowl in August of 1962.

Jayne Mansfield dies of an overdose in her apartment in 1967. Rumors have it she was listening to Holly's latest hit.

Or

Marilyn makes it to the concert and meets Holly backstage which leads to her dropping her scheduled events to appear with Holly on his benefit concert tour. It becomes obvious both Holly and Monroe are fast friends which last throughout their long lives. Holly even plays at Senator Monroe's senatorial victory parties each time she wins her senate races.

Buddy Holly looking for a string of semi-comedic songs in '67 collaborate with several 'singing' movies stars including Jayne Mansfield and Monroe. Both become hit singles. Because of the publicity of the song, Mansfield later creates and stars in the tv series, 'Bombshell' which runs for 7 seasons. Several aging queens of the screen appear on the show including Monroe, Russell, Van Doren among others. Holly writes the theme song and later makes several appearances as himself on the show.

[phx1138]

That's possible. A bit of WP reading says the influence of polka, waltz, & accordion led to creation of conjunto, norteño, & tejano. If he moves away from R&R, he might pick up norteño... (You do still see a 6-string "Mexican guitar" basso sexto} tho, so he might end up playing that.)