Semi-Independent Merged Colonys in Confederation post ARW.

[Canis Lupus]

Here is a map I did our of boredom.
The supposition is compromise between the OTL US and the many ATL's where all the states go independent.
I have Virgina as Virgina,New England(with NY, Minus RI) one Carolina and Georgia.
Thewestern parts are based on OTL Colonial land claims and the way I think they would have been worked out between the new nations.
Thoughts on Western Expansion, Lousisiana,Texas,1812,Manifest destiny, etc..????

[Lord Grattan]

My first thought after looking at the map is that manifest destiny will not manifest itself. Also, if there is something like a "War of 1812" the green area around the Great Lakes would likely be lost to Britain. It would make a nice sized Canadian province.

[Canis Lupus]

The Green Area belongs to New England(OTL Mass had claim to S part of MI LP...)

[ninebucks]

Why is Rhode Island excluded?

[Dan1988]

^Yea, I want to know that too. After all RI is part of New England.

[Lord Grattan]

The Green Area belongs to New England(OTL Mass had claim to S part of MI LP...)

How can they defend it?

[Canis Lupus]

Why is Rhode Island excluded?

^Yea, I want to know that too. After all RI is part of New England.
OTL RI showed a storng independent streak, being the last state to join the confederation, and one of that last to join the Unioin, as well as iulleagaly dissolving the Conf. OTL......
How can they defend it?
Through some sort of agreement with either Pennsylvania or Canada I imagine...

[DuQuense]

In the early 1800's pre 1812, the Ontario pennsula was one of the heavilyist American Settleted areas. Thousands crossing lakes Ontario and Erie.

Without a war of 1812 this would have continued. As would the Idea of Nova Scotia being Culturally/Ecomoniclly part of New England.
This may mean a peacefull joining to Canada.

By 1811 West Flordia was petitioning to join the US, OTL the US turned them down, not wanting to upset Great Britian, Spains Ally.
I don't see West Flordia staying out of your Confederations, much beyond the 1820's.
I also see problems with American Settlers in East Florida, about the same time.
Maybe a N/S split in East Flordia. North joining Georgia, South remaining Indian Territory, till later.

OTL the need to control the Mississippi is something all the southern states agreed on, I see no change here.
As more and more Americans settle the Trans Mississippi, the pressure to take control of the River mouth will intensify.

The First fillibutering Expeditions to take Texas started in the 18teens.
With no US buying Louisina and Florida [plus west coast] minus Texas, whe can have the fillibusters involed in the Mexican War Independence.

[Dutchie]

In the early 1800's pre 1812, the Ontario pennsula was one of the heavilyist American Settleted areas. Thousands crossing lakes Ontario and Erie.

Without a war of 1812 this would have continued. As would the Idea of Nova Scotia being Culturally/Ecomoniclly part of New England.
This may mean a peacefull joining to Canada.

!

Those areas were settled heavily by the Loyalists, those who chose to leave the rebelious America during the ARW. These people are those that are least likely to want to join with the US and do want to maintain strong ties to Britain. It wasn't the War of 1812 that kicked off Canadian unease of our southern neighbours' ambitions.

Depending on the degree of political union south of the border, you may or may not get a Brit NorAm confederation happening - that was greatly a response to US expansionism. If it's loose, you may have disjointed BNA dominions alongside the independent US states.

[David S Poepoe]

I've got to admit that I find it difficult to believe that the areas of OTL Michigan and Wisconsin would remain, let alone begin as, parts of New England. American access via the Ontario peninsula would just be blocked by the British. I could readily see either areas either becoming annexed by Virginia or become their own seperate states.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

And what's with New York and New England together? Last (i.e. the only) time that was tried it was a TOTAL disaster. IIRC the only thing that prevented civil war in the "Dominion of New England" [sic] was the change of Government in England (?Glorious Revolution?), which meant the New England sensu stricto actions of ?imprisoning? the governor (?general?) Andros could be explained away as support for the new regime.

[Canis Lupus]

Maybe a N/S split in East Flordia. North joining Georgia, South remaining Indian Territory, till later.

I actually see FL being divided between the various nations, maybe even RI getting some land to appease it.....

I've got to admit that I find it difficult to believe that the areas of OTL Michigan and Wisconsin would remain, let alone begin as, parts of New England. American access via the Ontario peninsula would just be blocked by the British. I could readily see either areas either becoming annexed by Virginia or become their own seperate states.
All I know is that the area was claimed by Mass. OTL, and if they are in union with the other NE Colonys they will be in a far better position to enforce this claim....

And what's with New York and New England together? Last (i.e. the only) time that was tried it was a TOTAL disaster. IIRC the only thing that prevented civil war in the "Dominion of New England" [sic] was the change of Government in England (?Glorious Revolution?), which meant the New England sensu stricto actions of ?imprisoning? the governor (?general?) Andros could be explained away as support for the new regime.
I see the various colonys at the end of the ARW joing up to presevere their power and infleuence......whille NY was powerful by itself, I think that a united NE would be stornger, and NY would see the writng on the wall....

[Canis Lupus]

A thought occurs:
Would New York be perhaps more willing tro join the Pensylvania Mid-Atlantic nation as opposed to the New England one????
The addition of NY to the PA nation would increase PA's power considerable, and make tham more able to enforce land claims......

[David S Poepoe]

One problem with the map is the obvious provision for OTL West Virginia which wouldn't be there.

[Canis Lupus]

One problem with the map is the obvious provision for OTL West Virginia which wouldn't be there.
Um, what?
WV is a part of VA, whats the problem?:confused:

[David S Poepoe]

Um, what?
WV is a part of VA, whats the problem?:confused:

Nope, completely my mistake. What threw me was the northwestern border which follows some river (I don't have an atlas in front of me) encompassing OTL southern Indiana and Ohio. The dip down looked like the WVA was there and the missing portion of the Virginia panhandle contributed to that.

[Lord Grattan]

Nope, completely my mistake. What threw me was the northwestern border which follows some river (I don't have an atlas in front of me) encompassing OTL southern Indiana and Ohio. The dip down looked like the WVA was there and the missing portion of the Virginia panhandle contributed to that.

I believe the map takes a detour up the Wabash (?) and down the Whitewater (?).

[Lord Grattan]

This map might be helpful to the discussion:

[David S Poepoe]

I thank thee, my lord. That is the map and contested land claims that I am familiar with. I thought something was strange with Virginia's borders.

[Jaded_Railman]

It's sometimes easy to forget that, at the time, Mass was the most populous and economically powerful colony, so all these Massachusetts land claims all over the place are somewhat hilarious.

[Canis Lupus]

Nope, completely my mistake. What threw me was the northwestern border which follows some river (I don't have an atlas in front of me) encompassing OTL southern Indiana and Ohio. The dip down looked like the WVA was there and the missing portion of the Virginia panhandle contributed to that.

I believe the map takes a detour up the Wabash (?) and down the Whitewater (?).
Just the Wabash.....
This map might be helpful to the discussion:
One of the maps I used as a basis........
I modified the map, with NY joining the PA nation instead of NE.......

[Canis Lupus]

bumpity-bump-bump.