British Comprehensive Schooling Disaster Not Implemented

[Nonny]

In the 1950s, female British loony leftist MPs like Barbara Castle and Shirley Williams commenced the dismantling of the "divisive" Public School system, in a grand social engineering attempt to destroy "elitism", and brought in the compulsory Comprehensive School system, whereby pubescent boys & girls are mixed together, distractions to a proper education thereby abound, mediocrity is extolled, and the more intelligent and talented pupils deliberately deterred & constrained. The result has been massively succesful, as can be seen from the new breed of Britons' vacant, gormless, blank, benighted expressions, and that's just the teachers! The Comprehensive System was copied around the world, especially the USA, with obvious results. WI the old system of separate schooling for the sexes and the more intelligent pupils had remained untouched?

[Tyr]

I second the fact they do nothing for clever people. They put too much effort into the dumb ones- most of who don't care.
I suppose I'd have made my first nuclear bomb by now (if I existed at all)

[mishery]

Oh, dear. Never let facts get in the way of ideology. I suggest you go and read up on literacy levels over the decades. You'll find that the people educated in the early decades of the comprehensive era are in fact the most literate generation, more literate than those before and after, thus to ascribe falling levels of educational attainment to the comprehensive system is completely wrong. I suggest you also go and read up on the effects of mixing sexes at school. The data suggest that boys in fact do better in mixed sex schools whereas girls do worse.

The old system was elitist. My parents went to secondary modern schools and were expected to simply be labourers or housewives respectively and thus were not encouraged to try and do well academically. This is not to say that there aren't problems with the comprehensive system, the anti-streaming folk took things too far, but the old system was worse.

Leej - shouldn't we be trying to educate the dumb ones? Those are the folk that will end up robbing your house if they don't get an education.

[Prunesquallor]

Nonny- are you trying to write alternate history here? How on earth could Williams and Castle dismantle anything in the 50s when the Conservatives were in power, 1951-64? They dismantled the "public schools"? I don't think you've got a clue what "public schools" are. This evil British example spread abroad, especially America? Actually if anything, the influence was the other way round. "...mediocrity is extolled, and the more intelligent and talented pupils deliberately deterred and constrained..." Let me guess, which category do you see yourself in? How old are you, by the by?

[carlton_bach]

In the 1950s, female British loony leftist MPs like Barbara Castle and Shirley Williams commenced the dismantling of the "divisive" Public School system, in a grand social engineering attempt to destroy "elitism", and brought in the compulsory Comprehensive School system, whereby pubescent boys & girls are mixed together, distractions to a proper education thereby abound, mediocrity is extolled, and the more intelligent and talented pupils deliberately deterred & constrained. The result has been massively succesful, as can be seen from the new breed of Britons' vacant, gormless, blank, benighted expressions, and that's just the teachers! The Comprehensive System was copied around the world, especially the USA, with obvious results. WI the old system of separate schooling for the sexes and the more intelligent pupils had remained untouched?

Yes, the results of such horrors can be observed particularly in impoverished, crime-ridden, increasingly illiterate Scandinavia...

[Faeelin]

In the 1950s, female British loony leftist MPs like Barbara Castle and Shirley Williams commenced the dismantling of the "divisive" Public School system, in a grand social engineering attempt to destroy "elitism", and brought in the compulsory Comprehensive School system, whereby pubescent boys & girls are mixed together, distractions to a proper education thereby abound, mediocrity is extolled, and the more intelligent and talented pupils deliberately deterred & constrained. The result has been massively succesful, as can be seen from the new breed of Britons' vacant, gormless, blank, benighted expressions, and that's just the teachers! The Comprehensive System was copied around the world, especially the USA, with obvious results. WI the old system of separate schooling for the sexes and the more intelligent pupils had remained untouched?

Umm, America's had public schools for longer than the 50's, although I'm not sure that's what you meant.

You're aware that the public schools of Britain (where you studied Latin rather than a plebian art like calclulus) are partly held to be responsible for the fall of the Empire?

[Grey Wolf]

The result has been massively succesful, as can be seen from the new breed of Britons' vacant, gormless, blank, benighted expressions, and that's just the teachers


I could take offence at this, but I really can't be bothered to take this post seriously

Grey Wolf

[czarist]

Yes, the results of such horrors can be observed particularly in impoverished, crime-ridden, increasingly illiterate Scandinavia...

hello?? "vacant, gormless, blank, benighted expressions" - that is SO scandinavia and you know it!

;)

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

In the 1950s, female British loony leftist MPs like Barbara Castle and Shirley Williams commenced the dismantling of the "divisive" Public School system, in a grand social engineering attempt to destroy "elitism", and brought in the compulsory Comprehensive School system, whereby pubescent boys & girls are mixed together, distractions to a proper education thereby abound, mediocrity is extolled, and the more intelligent and talented pupils deliberately deterred & constrained. The result has been massively succesful, as can be seen from the new breed of Britons' vacant, gormless, blank, benighted expressions, and that's just the teachers! The Comprehensive System was copied around the world, especially the USA, with obvious results. WI the old system of separate schooling for the sexes and the more intelligent pupils had remained untouched?

While I agree that gifted students have become neglected, you have to keep in mind that earlier in the century, only the brightest peole even attended school. For instance, the SATs used to be taken only by an educated elite; thus, scores have fallen since now everyone takes them.

[Ian the Admin]

Nonny, that is a ridiculously offensive, political troll. I've told you before not to post stuff like that. Vanant stares? Loony leftists? Those sort of comments don't belong here.

[Derek Jackson]

I went to a Secondary Modern School. It delayed my higher education. The system defined 80% of people as "failures" at 11. It was, in my opinion, imoral.

We find the students of non selective Comprehenive Schools compared to student in a different era of the selected 20% at grammar schools.

[DuQuense]

While it is true that many College Graduates today can't pass a 1901 high school Final Exam, And this is Due to the Powers that be not wanting to use the Force Nessicary to override the Political Considerations. Both with the parents and the Teachers. It doesn't look good on the Pricinipals resume for Board of Electors, if 3/4 of your students Flunk each year. Even if everyone agrees that is nessacary.

OTOH there is a LOT more shere Facts & Knowledge, For Students to learn today. Some kind of Reform from the rote Memorazation system was needed.
IMHO the problem is they went to far, to fast, in decenterizing the System, and no one has the power any more to fix the problems.

I beleve that a Single Sex Option should be avalible in The public [england Private] school arena. but the ACLU and like groups will not accept it today.


PS-- have English public schools like Eton & Harrow gone Co-ed, and does Europe have ACLU analogues.

[Grey Wolf]

I beleve that a Single Sex Option should be avalible in The public [england Private] school arena. but the ACLU and like groups will not accept it today.


PS-- have English public schools like Eton & Harrow gone Co-ed, and does Europe have ACLU analogues.

Are there no longer single sex fee-paying schools in the USA like that portrayed in 'Dead Poets Society' ?

Some of the private/public schools in the UK went co-ed but usually only at sixth form level, especially for the historical ones

I suppose the ACLU equivalent is the Commission for Racial Equality, but I'm not sure what bearing that has on single-sex schools ?

Grey Wolf

[Prunesquallor]

I assume our escapee from E E Smith is taking the piss? Nobody putting in a serious posting on education would contrive to include two variant incorrect spellings of "necessary."

[DuQuense]

The Main problem with Privite {parents pay} schools in the US is that in most cases only Schools with a religionist Co host [Schools in the church to pick up the overhead] [schools run by a church for the tax breaks] [ect.] can compete with the Gov't bureacacy. I went to a private school [7-12] while my sister went to a private elementary school [k-8] Both of theses went out of Business years ago. forced out by Gov't red tape. Dispite this there are a few private schools, that have survivied for years. Most of the few do have sex segerated classes. thro the schools are offically Coed.

The ACLU is Private and is not suppose to have any Gov't surrport. It just sticks its long nose into any dispute with the Gov't people may be having.

[Prunesquallor]

"Privite", "ect", "bureacacy", "theses", "dispite", "segerated", "thro", "offically"? It's just as well your old school went out of business.

[Dunash]

In the Indian, Chinese, S.Korean and Japanese schooling system, boys are still separated from girls. Those countries are literally peacefully overtaking the world. Their engineers and computer programmers excel. The British, who used to be good, are now dismal in these areas.Even British DIR now goes through India because BT just can't get the indigenous British staff with the requisite IQ! As Prince Charles said: It is surely obvious that putting adolescent boys & girls together in the same class will distract from one's education, together with other unnecessary and unpleasant social implications.

I went to an all-boy Public school, and am grateful for that! I remember when they brought the first girls into the 6th Form in my final year 1974, why....the distraction, attraction & sensation literally almost caused us to fail our A levels!

[DominusNovus]

The Main problem with Privite {parents pay} schools in the US is that in most cases only Schools with a religionist Co host [Schools in the church to pick up the overhead] [schools run by a church for the tax breaks] [ect.] can compete with the Gov't bureacacy. I went to a private school [7-12] while my sister went to a private elementary school [k-8] Both of theses went out of Business years ago. forced out by Gov't red tape. Dispite this there are a few private schools, that have survivied for years. Most of the few do have sex segerated classes. thro the schools are offically Coed.

The ACLU is Private and is not suppose to have any Gov't surrport. It just sticks its long nose into any dispute with the Gov't people may be having.
I went to private school, k-8. My hometown had the distinction of having an absurd number of catholic schools (i think somewhere around 8, for a city of 50,000), plus plenty of other catholic schools in the immeadiate area. Now, there's about 3-4 catholic schools left in my town (though technically, one of them merged with mine, so it didn't really fail). Oh, and the overall performance level is going down.

IMO, we gotta invent jacks like in the Matrix. That'll make school alot more effective. :D

[Sargon]

I'd just like to point out that although there are single-sex schools (and Universities in Japan), the vast majority of schools are co-educational, a practice adopted after the end of the war. I remember when I lived and studied in Japan and being quite intrigued by the schooling sytem consequently writing a paper studying the problems within it.

I remember in particular the effects of 'cramming' schools on pupils and the often intolerable pressures they would put on those preparing for university entrance exams. Also the phenomenon of bullying in Japan was often quite shocking...a symptom of the strict school culture in that pupils who stood out from the rest for some reason (too talented, not talented enough, looked different, less hygenic, too extrovert, too quiet etc) were often victimized, humiliated, and beaten just because of those facts and that they didn't 'fit in'.

Sometimes the bullying was instituted by teachers themselves, I remember one case where a schoolgirl was a few seconds late to school, and the teacher deliberately slammed the heavy metal main gate shut on her, crushing her skull. This was by no means an isolated incident. Murders and suicides were a problem, caused by both pupils' bullying and victimsation by teachers. Quite frankly the system could be quite ruthless at times. I'm not saying this was endemic, but it was certainly widespread.

What price success? I came across many school children who were mentally and physically scarred by the schooling system in both the single-sex and co-educational regimes. Also the education system emphasised teaching by rote, and the absorption of facts. University students had problems when studying overseas due to the analytical nature of courses in western institutions, thus tending to have problems producing critical pieces of work, and generally avoiding asking questions of lecturers and tutors as is the norm. I was frequently being asked to help Japanese friends with their essays, and tutors would often despair that they did not become more inlvolved in class discussions. Yes, they might have great mathematicians, engineers etc, but consider the price of that success.


Sargon

[Grey Wolf]

In the Indian, Chinese, S.Korean and Japanese schooling system, boys are still separated from girls. Those countries are literally peacefully overtaking the world. Their engineers and computer programmers excel. The British, who used to be good, are now dismal in these areas.Even British DIR now goes through India because BT just can't get the indigenous British staff with the requisite IQ!

Er, no

The reason that many call centres relocate to India is that in the UK the wages given to employees are so low that they CAN only attract the less educated.

In India, even less money than this equates to a degree-level wage so by cutting costs they can gain a better educated workforce.

If they wanted to hire degree-level employees for call centres in the Uk they would have to pay wages commensurate with this.

However, it has been frequently commented upon that education does not understanding make. Take the Indian call centres used by banks, a colleague of mine was trying to arrange to have £200 pounds sterling changed into Egyptian pounds. Reasonably simple, but because both ends of the transaction used the word pounds it took almost an hour to get the Indian call centre staff to understand what she wanted. I also wanted to check my own account to see if what I was paying out in a standing order to my own account with another bank - the answer from India was that I had not got a standing order to another bank. I eventually realised they had thought I meant I was paying the BANK not an account there, and that they had no idea of simple sortcodes equating to banks

I cannot imagine how Directory Enquiries or National Rail Enquiries is going to deal with people wanting locations/destinations in Wales ! It is not so much education as a body of knowledge learned from life and living within a national culture

My opinion is that in time they will probably sort it all out, but I know that it IS hitting on the reputation of certain banks whose customers are annoyed at the decline in service due to out-sourcing to India. Its a lack of rapport, a misunderstanding of what seems simple, and a need for them to learn very fast on the job.

One thing I am hearing, though, is that although the pay is good for India, the graduates are getting very bored with this type of work and the turnover is quite high, which would appear to mitigate against getting the level of expertise and learning on the job necessary

Grey Wolf

[mishery]

"Even British DIR now goes through India because BT just can't get the indigenous British staff with the requisite IQ!"

Shed loads of companies are moving their call centres to India cos it's cheaper.

"As Prince Charles said: It is surely obvious that putting adolescent boys & girls together in the same class will distract from one's education, together with other unnecessary and unpleasant social implications."

As I mentioned above, boys actually do better in mixed sex schools. Research by educational psychologist vs. opinion of inbred aristocrat with no idea about life in the real world. You choose which to believe.

[Sargon]

Well, call centres don't just get the less well educated...my housemate has 2 degrees (Physics and History) and he works in a call centre for a measly £12,000 per year....the job situation ain't great in Sheffy....you take what you can get.

And I'm really not sure about single-sex vs co-ed systems. Both have pros and cons it seems. Seems to be affected by culture too in some regards perhaps?


Sargon

[Prunesquallor]

Dunash- why in God's name are you grateful for going to an all male school? So did I, and it damn well retarded my social development. It doesn't sound too healthy if the introduction of females in the 6th form caused you all to freak out.

[Max Sinister]

AOL. The fact that student are distracted from learning 'cause of social implications isn't only a bad thing. An older relative of mine went to an all-girls school and never really learned how this strange species from Mars (i.e. men) think & feel. No wonder her marriage broke up. IMO Single-sex schools are only good for educating kids who want to become monks/nuns and/or homosexuals. (This is not meant to be anti-gay. I only want to say that anyone else won't become too happy in his/her social life after being educated in a school where they pretend that the other sex doesn't exist.)

[Derek Jackson]

There is a confustion here. "Comprehensive Schools" are those in which people are not selected based on supposed academic merit at 11.

It is possible to have single sex selective or Comprehensive schools. It is possible to have co ed selective or Comprehensive school. I believe all of these combinations have existed in the UK in the last 20-40 years

[NapoleonXIV]

Wasn't Einstein nearly put out of school in his youth for poor grades in Language?

Any system that bases one's entire education on one test taken at age 11 has a serious problem in my opinion. If America is so backward educationally why do we continue to be the most productive country in the world? I get a little sick of countries we can buy and sell telling us we don't know how to educate our children.

[DominusNovus]

Wasn't Einstein nearly put out of school in his youth for poor grades in Language?

Any system that bases one's entire education on one test taken at age 11 has a serious problem in my opinion. If America is so backward educationally why do we continue to be the most productive country in the world? I get a little sick of countries we can buy and sell telling us we don't know how to educate our children.
Actually, I'm pretty sure Einstein did poorly in mathematics.

[Faeelin]

In the Indian, Chinese, S.Korean and Japanese schooling system, boys are still separated from girls. Those countries are literally peacefully overtaking the world.

Not the evil asians taking over the world through business prowess myth. That is soo 1980's.

[Max Sinister]

Einstein did well in mathematics. He mostly had problems with the wide-spread militarism in the German schools, being the pacifist he was. He later said: "In my first school, the teachers were like sergeants, and in my second one, like lieutenants." (Something like that.)