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Hannibal.Caesar
November 13th, 2007, 05:28 PM
Not too sure how ASB this is, and I'm sure I'm not the first one to post a thread on this topic, but how would history have changed if Russia (or at least a significant portion of it) was Muslim? Perhaps more of the Cumans or Bulgars decided to convert to Islam, enough to significantly change the religious make-up of a western Rus state.

My knowledge of early Russian history is a bit lax, so I'm not too sure what the POD could be for this. It just seems like a really intriguing idea to me for some reason.

Promethean
November 13th, 2007, 06:01 PM
well how are they converted?

the part that could be converted would probably be Kiev and its empire.

in which time is this thread?

Doctor Haider
November 13th, 2007, 06:36 PM
Not too sure how ASB this is, and I'm sure I'm not the first one to post a thread on this topic, but how would history have changed if Russia (or at least a significant portion of it) was Muslim? Perhaps more of the Cumans or Bulgars decided to convert to Islam, enough to significantly change the religious make-up of a western Rus state.

My knowledge of early Russian history is a bit lax, so I'm not too sure what the POD could be for this. It just seems like a really intriguing idea to me for some reason.

It is amazing but there IS the POD not only for Muslim Russia but for Judaic Russia too!!

When Great Prince Vladimir looked for a new religion for the Rus' he at first attempted to reform paganism creating the hierarchy of gods. When this attempt failed Vladimir announced that he want to adopt one of existing religions and ready to hear proposals from all confessions.

He recieved several delegations from heads of different confessions and in turn sent his emmissaries to Rome (catholicism), Constantinople (orthodox church), to Khazaria (judaism) and to Bulgars (Islam).

The ortodox christianity from Byzantine Empire was selected but other alternatives were examined as well.

So we have several PODs here:

1. Russia stays pagan;
2. Russia adopts catholicism (as Poland), Vladimir recieves his crown from the hands of Pope and becomes the King of Rus';
3. Russia adopts Judaism from Khazaria that in this time (the end of 10th century) was relatively influental power controlling valuable trade routes.
4. Russia adopts Islam from its neigbours, Bulgars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

Promethean
November 13th, 2007, 06:58 PM
since the thread starter is interested in a muslim russia i say 4

Philip
November 13th, 2007, 07:18 PM
The ortodox christianity from Byzantine Empire was selected but other alternatives were examined as well.

Politics played a large role in this. Kiev had extensive trade ties with Constantinople.

Promethean
November 13th, 2007, 07:21 PM
if you let constantinople being taken by the turks the islam would have more influence

Ace Venom
November 13th, 2007, 09:41 PM
if you let constantinople being taken by the turks the islam would have more influence

Yeah, but Russia didn't roll over and become Muslim just because the Ottoman Turks overran the Balkans. Who's to say it would be any different if the Seljuks did it? Kiev would probably become the new center for Orthodoxy rather than a jumping point for Islam.

Philip
November 13th, 2007, 10:57 PM
Yeah, but Russia didn't roll over and become Muslim just because the Ottoman Turks overran the Balkans. Who's to say it would be any different if the Seljuks did it? Kiev would probably become the new center for Orthodoxy rather than a jumping point for Islam.

I think he was suggesting that Constantinople fall before the conversion of Kiev.

Ran Exilis
November 13th, 2007, 11:27 PM
if you let constantinople being taken by the turks the islam would have more influence

That wouldn't work - the Russians were Christianized during the late 10th century, and the Turks weren't even close to Constantinople until years after the Battle of Mantzikert in 1071.

By the time the Turks could make the earliest possible attempt at attacking Constantinople, the Russians would have been Christian for decades.

Demosthenes
November 13th, 2007, 11:35 PM
It is amazing but there IS the POD not only for Muslim Russia but for Judaic Russia too!!

When Great Prince Vladimir looked for a new religion for the Rus' he at first attempted to reform paganism creating the hierarchy of gods. When this attempt failed Vladimir announced that he want to adopt one of existing religions and ready to hear proposals from all confessions.

He recieved several delegations from heads of different confessions and in turn sent his emmissaries to Rome (catholicism), Constantinople (orthodox church), to Khazaria (judaism) and to Bulgars (Islam).

The ortodox christianity from Byzantine Empire was selected but other alternatives were examined as well.

So we have several PODs here:

1. Russia stays pagan;
2. Russia adopts catholicism (as Poland), Vladimir recieves his crown from the hands of Pope and becomes the King of Rus';
3. Russia adopts Judaism from Khazaria that in this time (the end of 10th century) was relatively influental power controlling valuable trade routes.
4. Russia adopts Islam from its neigbours, Bulgars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'

I think one or two are the most realistic PODs on this question.

fortyseven
November 14th, 2007, 03:13 AM
Muslims could conquer Constantinople the first time in the 7th century or the second time in the 8th Century.

Analytical Engine
November 14th, 2007, 10:53 AM
Muslims could conquer Constantinople the first time in the 7th century or the second time in the 8th Century.

Ok, how?

Constantinople had Huge Walls(!) to contend with. :p

Ran Exilis
November 14th, 2007, 01:29 PM
Muslims could conquer Constantinople the first time in the 7th century or the second time in the 8th Century.

As Analytical Engine already pointed out; that's a pretty big stretch.

Muslims could attack Constantinople during the 7th and 8th centuries - wether they could actually conquer it is an entirely different question.

What the Arabs had during the 7th and 8th century was still nothing compared to what the Ottomans had during the 15th century, and even the Ottomans only just managed to capture the remnants of Constantinople.

And aside from the technological superiority of the 15th century Ottoman forces over the 7th and 8th century Arab forces; the Ottomans controlled much of western Anatolia, the Balkans and the Greek lands north of Morea - when the Arabs invaded, the only significant Arab presence in Europe and Asia minor were the Arab armies that were besieging Constantinople.

And the Byzantines still had naval supremacy at this point, which meant that the Arab attempts to attack Constantinople by sea ended in failure, and that the Arabs who had crossed the Bosporus were cut off from the Arab forces on the Asian side of the Bosporus.

Faeelin
November 14th, 2007, 03:24 PM
[QUOTE=Analytical Engine;1347410]Ok, how?

Constantinople had Huge Walls(!)to contend with. :pQUOTE]

I assume the way they came close OTL; with armies and a naval blockade.

Nekromans
November 14th, 2007, 03:35 PM
Ok, how?

Constantinople had Huge Walls(!) to contend with. :p

Huge walls, yes, but it's also a large city, and ergo not very self-sufficient. Just wait for them to run out of weapons and/or starve.

Wozza
November 14th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Huge walls, yes, but it's also a large city, and ergo not very self-sufficient. Just wait for them to run out of weapons and/or starve.

In this period it probably was fairly self-sufficient. The population was at its lowest ebb and food was grown within the walls.

Also of course food would primarily be brought in by sea. Which is harder to completely interdict.

Fresh fish is in fact still sold each morning on the Golden Horn. And absolutely delicious it is too.

snerfuplz
November 14th, 2007, 11:50 PM
I remember hearing a legend that a Russian Tsar was deciding which to be the religion of his country. He decided on Christanity because it did not outlaw alcochol.

Demosthenes
November 14th, 2007, 11:53 PM
I remember hearing a legend that a Russian Tsar was deciding which to be the religion of his country. He decided on Christanity because it did not outlaw alcochol.

The Tsar liked alcohol that much? :)

snerfuplz
November 14th, 2007, 11:54 PM
The Tsar liked alcohol that much? :)

Russians and their drink. How else would they get through that nasty weather:D

Hannibal.Caesar
November 15th, 2007, 12:20 AM
I remember hearing a legend that a Russian Tsar was deciding which to be the religion of his country. He decided on Christanity because it did not outlaw alcochol.

There seems to be quite a few legends rotating around about that. I think it's mentioned at the top of this thread, even.

What would the affect of a Muslim Russia have on the development of eastern Europe? Would it ever be too ASB to imagine Moscow being the center of the Muslim intelligentsia?

Faeelin
November 15th, 2007, 12:25 AM
In this period it probably was fairly self-sufficient. The population was at its lowest ebb and food was grown within the walls.

Also of course food would primarily be brought in by sea. Which is harder to completely interdict.

Fresh fish is in fact still sold each morning on the Golden Horn. And absolutely delicious it is too.

I find it hard to believe that even with a "mere" 50,000 people, Constantinople could have been fed by the area within its walls.

Hannibal.Caesar
November 15th, 2007, 01:18 AM
I find it hard to believe that even with a "mere" 50,000 people, Constantinople could have been fed by the area within its walls.

Read: "food would primarily be brought in by sea." Unless the Arabs are able to create a naval force powerful enough to threaten the (IIRC) preeminent navy at the time, Constantinople would survive even if its walls are being besieged.

SRT
November 15th, 2007, 01:30 AM
Moscow wasn't even more than a town until the 13th century or so, IIRC. In the time period we're talking about,

Also, keep in mind that even though Vladimir was the Prince who Christianized the Rus, and the first Christian Prince, he wasn't the first Christian involved in the royal family. If memory serves, that would've been his grandmother, Olga. So there was already a disposition towards Christianity in there.

However, it always seemed like a good PoD to investigate. This would mean even more conflict with the Teutonic Knights, of course, as they'd Crusade into Lithuania and then -- guess what, even more heathens on the other side! However, I don't know how involved they would be with, say, the First Crusade, if they did choose to become Muslim.

The legend, as I've heard it, goes that the Grand Prince found Catholicism boring, as the service took forever and was just some guy talking in Latin about how the Prince was going to die. He didn't like Judaism because they had already lost their holy land and been cast out by their god. And he didn't like Islam because, as he said, "Drinking is the joy of the Rus." However, upon visiting an Orthodox church service in Constantinople, he apparently felt as though he was in heaven itself due to the beauty of the rituals and music.

Who knows how true it is. I don't know how seriously many Muslims take the no-alcohol rule. Because I think a PoD of "Russians don't like alcohol" is simply ASB -- not to sound like I'm ragging on Russians.

Doctor Haider
November 15th, 2007, 08:22 AM
I remember hearing a legend that a Russian Tsar was deciding which to be the religion of his country. He decided on Christanity because it did not outlaw alcochol.

This legend is about the Grand Prince Vladimir of Kiev in fact. Tsars appeared only over the 500 years after that.

The legend itself looks a lot like the historical anecdote.

history_fanatic
November 15th, 2007, 12:29 PM
Didn't someone do a thread awhile ago where the Byzantines, in a sort of resurgence or something, drove the Turks north up into Russia.

Couldn't we get around the alcohol prohibition, by pulling an Al-Anglia and restrict wines? :o

How would this possibly peaceful conversion of territory affect the Caliphate? Hadn't all previous Islamic territory cme from conquest?

Faeelin
November 15th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Read: "food would primarily be brought in by sea." Unless the Arabs are able to create a naval force powerful enough to threaten the (IIRC) preeminent navy at the time, Constantinople would survive even if its walls are being besieged.

Which they did.

What, did you think they just walked up to the walls and shouted curse words?

Hannibal.Caesar
November 15th, 2007, 08:33 PM
Which they did.

What, did you think they just walked up to the walls and shouted curse words?

Yes! That was exactly what I thought they did! You mean that they didn't just do that? That they actually fought to take a city? By golly!

Elidor
November 15th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Russia staying pagan would also be interesting. It might even make Pagan Scandinavia more possible than OTL. Or you could have Russians convert to something a little more exotic like Buddhism or Zoroastrianism. :)

Analytical Engine
November 16th, 2007, 09:38 AM
Russia staying pagan would also be interesting. It might even make Pagan Scandinavia more possible than OTL. Or you could have Russians convert to something a little more exotic like Buddhism or Zoroastrianism. :)

Or even Manichianism (sic). :D

Now you've gone and made me want to see kung-fu Cossacks. :D

Ridwan Asher
November 16th, 2007, 10:25 AM
1) Or even Manichianism (sic). :D

2) Now you've gone and made me want to see kung-fu Cossacks. :D

1) In some certain times, they'll be good friends with the Uyghurs...

2) Hmm, I think this will lead us to discussion about another matter.... :rolleyes:;)

BrotherToAll
November 16th, 2007, 10:30 AM
Would the Russians be Shia or Sunni Muslim? Because that would have a major impact on their relationships with other Muslim nations

Ridwan Asher
November 16th, 2007, 10:50 AM
Would the Russians be Shia or Sunni Muslim? Because that would have a major impact on their relationships with other Muslim nations

It'll be more likely if they become Sunni, because there was not any Shia majority country at that time, but who'd know if something certain would might gonna happen....