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View Full Version : Richard the Lionheart claims the Crown of Jerusalem?


Don_Giorgio
November 13th, 2007, 08:20 AM
In OTL before and following the Battle of Hattin the Crown of Jerusalem was kept by Guy de Lusignan (matrimonial only though)...
WI Richard the Lionheart claimed the crown? He was the closest blood relative to the royal family...
Richard I King of England and Jerusalem Duke of Normans and Aquitaine Count of Anjou... Sounds funny isnt it???
Could he hold the crown and passed it to his heirs?

el t
November 13th, 2007, 07:10 PM
A strong possibility. I suspect that he would have to marry Princess Isabella, the younger of king Amaury's two daughters. But at the time of the third crusade, he was already married. Or if he was considered a possible heir when Baldwin IV was still alive, he would have had to come east and marry Princess Sybilla. This would have been more workable had Richard's elder brother Henry lived. Another plan could have been the marriage of any son by Richard to the Jerusalem heiress, the daugher of Queen Isabel and Conrad of Montferrat. But of course, Richard's marriage was childless. In the long run, I consider that the kingdom of Jerusalem was too distant for Richard. His extensive French lands were under threat from Philip Augustus.

Analytical Engine
November 14th, 2007, 12:01 PM
Richard with even more land! :eek:

Sgt Detritus
November 14th, 2007, 01:19 PM
In OTL before and following the Battle of Hattin the Crown of Jerusalem was kept by Guy de Lusignan (matrimonial only though)...
WI Richard the Lionheart claimed the crown? He was the closest blood relative to the royal family...
Richard I King of England and Jerusalem Duke of Normans and Aquitaine Count of Anjou... Sounds funny isnt it???
Could he hold the crown and passed it to his heirs?

He could claim the throne and then give it to brother John in order to keep him out of the way

Analytical Engine
November 14th, 2007, 01:26 PM
He could claim the throne and then give it brother John in order to keep him out of the way

:D:D:D:D:D

Sgt Detritus
November 14th, 2007, 01:36 PM
:D:D:D:D:D

Maybe Ricky wouldn't be too upset if the Assassins somehow managed to kill John

Analytical Engine
November 14th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Maybe Ricky wouldn't be too upset if the Assassins somehow managed to kill John

John would, though... :D

demonkangaroo
November 15th, 2007, 12:06 AM
If John does get Jerusalem, lets think of the consequences:

No Magna Carta
No Robin Hood
No ARW
Longer Angevins
No English Bill of Rights
No Glorius RevolutionThe list goes on, and on.....

Roberto
November 15th, 2007, 12:35 AM
[quote=demonkangaroo;1348311]
No Robin Hood
quote]

Not sure about all the others, but for that comment

:D:D:D:D

Thande
November 15th, 2007, 01:39 AM
If John does get Jerusalem, lets think of the consequences:

No Magna Carta
No Robin Hood
No ARW
Longer Angevins
No English Bill of Rights
No Glorius RevolutionThe list goes on, and on.....
Indeed. I wonder what John would be like in Jerusalem. He was pretty damn ruthless even when he was just ruling over Christians. Drowned his nephew Arthur in Paris, hence the old joke "Barons to John: You're insane, John: Ah yes, but Arthur's in Seine."

And then there were the rumours about him being a werewolf...

Thande
November 15th, 2007, 01:41 AM
[quote=demonkangaroo;1348311]
No Robin Hood
quote]

Not sure about all the others, but for that comment

:D:D:D:D

Most historians reckon Robin Hood was around in the reign of one of the Edwards. The later writers shunted him into John's reign because it meant they could get away with portraying the king as EEEEEEVIL.

SRT
November 15th, 2007, 02:43 AM
Well, what if the PoD is that Henry doesn't die and becomes King of England?

(I admit I don't know much about this time period).

freodhoric
November 15th, 2007, 03:05 AM
No Robin Hood
Legends of Robin Hood were partly based on Hereward the Wake, who opposed William the Conqueror.

Analytical Engine
November 15th, 2007, 10:27 AM
Well, what if the PoD is that Henry doesn't die and becomes King of England?

(I admit I don't know much about this time period).

Then Richard could play soldier as much as he wanted.

If Geofrey didn't die when he did, he might have been the "spare" if anything bad happened to Richard.

Keenir
November 15th, 2007, 01:58 PM
If John does get Jerusalem, lets think of the consequences:

No Magna Carta actually, wouldn't this only promote a fairly OTL-like Magna Carta (or one tipped even less in favor of the King than OTL) ?

after all, bad as John was, he at least paid attention to England....if Richard gets England and Jerusalem, or gives Jerusalem to John, either way, Richard's going to be away from the English throne most of the time fighting battles.........that's not going to erase most of the reasoning for the Magna Carta.

at least, not that I'm aware of.

Don_Giorgio
November 15th, 2007, 03:49 PM
Even if John gets Jerusalem and Richard keeps England the two crowns would eventually united since Richard was childless... (and there were some nasty rumours going around that he was a homosexual...

Analytical Engine
November 15th, 2007, 04:22 PM
Even if John gets Jerusalem and Richard keeps England the two crowns would eventually united since Richard was childless... (and there were some nasty rumours going around that he was a homosexual...

But there was always Arthur of Britanny, Geofrey's son.

numberone
November 15th, 2007, 05:36 PM
If Richard becomes King of Israel, he will certainly rule in absence after the Crusades die out. Is there a possibility of a Mophia formed, b/e of Richard living in England.

Thande
November 15th, 2007, 06:36 PM
But there was always Arthur of Britanny, Geofrey's son.
Assuming John did kill him in OTL and he didn't just die suddenly (most historians think John had him assassinated, but it's never been proved).

Hmm...King Arthur (II? Arthur Tudor was going to call himself Arthur II to evoke the legend of King Arthur) of England... :cool:

Don_Giorgio
November 16th, 2007, 10:20 AM
Could he claim the Imperial Crown from HRE with the right of "Romano-British" inheritance as Arthur II?
Pretty much ASB but it could work in the 12th century... Something similar to the Donatio Constantini forgery...:D:D:eek::eek: