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Chris
November 11th, 2007, 09:59 PM
Let us imagine a world where islam spread over most of western europe in 800-1100ADish. (NOT 2019!) What might places be called; america, europe, cambridge, etc, etc?

(And no Al-Bion jokes please.)

Chris

Roberto
November 11th, 2007, 10:05 PM
Frankistan, Al-Taliyya, Dannistan, Al-Harmoniyya, Al-Vetia, Al-Burgandiyya.

First one's obvious, second one's Italy, third one's Denmark, fourth one's extremely corrupted Germany, fifth one's Switzerland (Helvitia), and the last one's Burgundy.

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
November 11th, 2007, 10:10 PM
Frankistan, Al-Taliyya, Dannistan, Al-Harmoniyya, Al-Vetia, Al-Burgandiyya.

The ones ending in "-stan" only make sense if the dominant language is Turkic or Iranian, which would be hard to pull in that interval.

Roberto
November 11th, 2007, 10:13 PM
The ones ending in "-stan" only make sense if the dominant language is Turkic or Iranian, which would be hard to pull in that interval.

Fine. Al-Franciyya, and Al-Dayyeni. Does that suit you? :rolleyes:

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
November 11th, 2007, 10:21 PM
Fine. Al-Franciyya, and Al-Dayyeni. Does that suit you? :rolleyes:

The bhoy's rage has been calmed.

Chris
November 11th, 2007, 10:24 PM
Fine. Al-Franciyya, and Al-Dayyeni. Does that suit you? :rolleyes:

Excellent. What about places in the US? What might a muslim version of Christopher Columbus be called?

Chris

Ran Exilis
November 11th, 2007, 11:07 PM
Excellent. What about places in the US? What might a muslim version of Christopher Columbus be called?

Chris

Well, certainly not Christopher or any other Christian name.

A Muslim equivalent of Christopher Columbus could have any Islamic or religiously neutral first name that was common in Islamic Spain or the Maghreb at the time.

Thande
November 11th, 2007, 11:07 PM
Actually, there's a decent list of Arabic place names for countries on Wikipedia, most of which are the same as the ones they used in the 700s OTL. Note that most of them are French-influenced (e.g. the Arabic for England is 'Injiltera', from French 'Angleterre') because the Christians that the Arabs met mostly spoke French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_names_in_various_languages

Leo Caesius
November 11th, 2007, 11:22 PM
Note that most of them are French-influenced (e.g. the Arabic for England is 'Injiltera', from French 'Angleterre') because the Christians that the Arabs met mostly spoke French.Actually, I'd suggest Italian Inghilterra as the origin of the Arabic. A lot of toponyms (such as Fransā for France, from Francia), trade goods (banadūrah for tomato, from pomodoro), and nautical terminology (such as ustubba for oakum, from stoppa) in Arabic come from various Italian dialects, although I suspect that the main vehicle of transmission was the Sabir.

Thande
November 11th, 2007, 11:23 PM
Actually, I'd suggest Italian Inghilterra as the origin of the Arabic. A lot of toponyms (such as Fransā for France, from Francia), trade goods (banadūrah for tomato, from pomodoro), and nautical terminology (such as ustubba for oakum, from stoppa) in Arabic come from various Italian dialects, although I suspect that the main vehicle of transmission was the Sabir.

Well, obviously I bow to your superior knowledge of such things; I was just guessing from the context, given that the Arabic for Germany is Al-Alamaniya (IIRC) and similar...

Leo Caesius
November 11th, 2007, 11:33 PM
Well, obviously I bow to your superior knowledge of such things; I was just guessing from the context, given that the Arabic for Germany is Al-Alamaniya (IIRC) and similar...As opposed to al-Jirmaniyya or something like it, which you'd expect from standard Italian. It's a good guess, actually. Since the Sabir was mainly a language of convenience, it wasn't picky about linguistic consistency. A big part of the vocab came from Italian but it added and dropped terms as it needed. Since you get Alemagne in French, Alemanha in Occitan, and Alemania in Spanish, but Germania in standard Italian, the Arabs probably went with the more widespread term. Heck, I woudn't be surprised if it were known as Almagna in some of the more nautically-inclined northern dialects of Italian (if one can anthropomorphize a dialect).

Thande
November 11th, 2007, 11:36 PM
As opposed to al-Jirmaniyya or something like it, which you'd expect from standard Italian. It's a good guess, actually. Since the Sabir was mainly a language of convenience, it wasn't picky about linguistic consistency. A big part of the vocab came from Italian but it added and dropped terms as it needed. Since you get Alemagne in French, Alemanha in Occitan, and Alemania in Spanish, but Germania in standard Italian, the Arabs probably went with the more widespread term. Heck, I woudn't be surprised if it were known as Almagna in some of the more nautically-inclined northern dialects of Italian (if one can anthropomorphize a dialect).
It's certainly an interesting thought. The other reason I thought Injiltera=Angleterre was because I know that in the Egyptian and Libyan dialects of Arabic (I'm probably being overly simplistic here, I know) that J tends to become G...

Leo Caesius
November 12th, 2007, 12:33 AM
It's certainly an interesting thought. The other reason I thought Injiltera=Angleterre was because I know that in the Egyptian and Libyan dialects of Arabic (I'm probably being overly simplistic here, I know) that J tends to become G...It has a variety of interesting outcomes throughout the Arabic world (j as in jinx, s as in pleasure, dy as d'you know what I mean?, and so on). It was probably originally a G (like you find in Hebrew and Aramaic) but became a J in modern standard Arabic and is pronounced that way by most Arabs, except for Egyptians, who pronounce it as a G (possibly due to Coptic influence, though your guess is as good as mine).

Q is another funny one; it can be pronounced as you'd expect it, or like a K (some Palestinians pronounce the Arabic name of Jerusalem, Quds, as Kids), or like a G (especially in the Gulf and Iraq, hence Goods), or even not at all (so some Lebanese will pronounce the same name as Idis).

Apropos of place names, Venice is the one place that defies expectations... you'd expect Finizia or something of the sort (no V in Arabic), but instead you get Bundūq, which is presumably from Latin Veneticum via German Venedig. The same word is the root of the Spanish word for meatballs, Albóndigas, not because meatballs came from Venice via the Arab world, but because the general Arabic word for rifle is a "Venetian" (Bundūqiyya), due to the Italian domination of the Mediterranean arms trade, and allegedly the meatballs were made to resemble bullets.

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 06:20 AM
Frankistan, Al-Taliyya, Dannistan, Al-Harmoniyya, Al-Vetia, Al-Burgandiyya.

They would may become :

Al-Firanjiyah/Al-Firansiyah, Al-Italiyah, Al-Daniyah, Al-Allamaniyah/Al-Jirmaniyah, Al-Halfatiiyah, Al-Burghaniyah (From French Burgogne)

Retina
November 12th, 2007, 07:04 AM
There`s going to be Caliph of Caliphornia for sure. :D

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 09:52 AM
There`s going to be Caliph of Caliphornia for sure. :D

So, it would still be named "California" by the Muslims ? ;):p

Advernt
November 12th, 2007, 11:38 AM
What about alternative names for the New World?

Thande
November 12th, 2007, 01:40 PM
So, it would still be named "California" by the Muslims ? ;):p

I suppose for irony value it could be Al-Kardinaliyah or something :D

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 01:51 PM
I suppose for irony value it could be Al-Kardinaliyah or something :D

:confused: ?

Thande
November 12th, 2007, 01:53 PM
:confused: ?

Caliph in Islam, Cardinals in Catholicism. Irony. (I know Pope would be a better parallel, but as Arabic doesn't have the letters P or O, it would be something like Al-Bubiya if I had done that joke, which sounds more like the sort of thing a Muslim Torq would call a country ;) )

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 01:56 PM
Caliph in Islam, Cardinals in Catholicism. Irony. (I know Pope would be a better parallel, but as Arabic doesn't have the letters P or O, it would be something like Al-Bubiya if I had done that joke, which sounds more like the sort of thing a Muslim Torq would call a country ;) )

And the wind blows.... shwoooshh......

Analytical Engine
November 12th, 2007, 02:00 PM
Caliph in Islam, Cardinals in Catholicism. Irony. (I know Pope would be a better parallel, but as Arabic doesn't have the letters P or O, it would be something like Al-Bubiya if I had done that joke, which sounds more like the sort of thing a Muslim Torq would call a country ;) )

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 02:05 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Man, the wind is cold..... brrrr.... brrrr.....

Atom
November 12th, 2007, 02:34 PM
I hate to imagine what Arabic would make of some of the Pacific NW tribes in America. Consonant string of 16 letters!

MerryPrankster
November 12th, 2007, 02:42 PM
I think in an earlier variant of this discussion, Leo posted something about "al-Britanya."

Leo Caesius
November 12th, 2007, 03:54 PM
Perhaps Batriyarqurniyyah could work for Caliph-ornia?

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 04:06 PM
Perhaps Batriyarqurniyyah could work for Caliph-ornia?

what's that mean ?

Nekromans
November 12th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Al-Anglia and Al-Eyri spring to mind, as do Al-Kimru and Al-Nortumbiya. Yay for "Al"s!

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 04:21 PM
Al-Anglia and Al-Eyri spring to mind, as do Al-Kimru and Al-Nortumbiya. Yay for "Al"s!

I think for Eire it'll become Al-Airiyah, and Northumbria will (may) become Al-Nurthumbur(iyah)...

Nekromans
November 12th, 2007, 04:25 PM
I think for Eire it'll become Al-Airiyah, and Northumbria will (may) become Al-Nurthumbur(iyah)...

Gah, I typed the wrong version of Al-Eyir again... >.<

I'm not so sure about your Islamic Ireland name, it looks like someone took my version, sliced it open, removed its insides, stuffed it full of vowels, and left it butchered in the street.

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 04:32 PM
Gah, I typed the wrong version of Al-Eyir again... >.<

I'm not so sure about your Islamic Ireland name, it looks like someone took my version, sliced it open, removed its insides, stuffed it full of vowels, and left it butchered in the street.


All I did was only saying my version of the name of Islamic Eire. Anyway how is the name "Eire" spelled ? Is it "Eyre" as in "Eye"? Or is it "Ay" as in "came" ?

Nekromans
November 12th, 2007, 04:33 PM
All I did was only saying my version of the name of Islamic Eire. I think we should look at be how is the name "Eire" spelled. Is it "Eyre" as in "Eye"? Or is it "Ay" as in "came" ?

That would be the pronunciation, actually, and it is Eye-ah, not Ay-ah.

Don't mean to be such a git here, sorry...

Leo Caesius
November 12th, 2007, 04:45 PM
what's that mean ?
Batriyarqus is the Arabic form of Partriarch.

Dan1988
November 12th, 2007, 04:55 PM
Is "al-" the only article in Arabic though? I know that in Jerusalem there is a road called the "el-Wad Street", so could there be a possibility of an "el-" name showing up here.

Oh yea, and Québec in Arabic: كوبيك. What is that in English?

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 04:55 PM
Batriyarqus is the Arabic form of Partriarch.

So, for now, aside from the Caliph/Cardinal/Patriarch we are doing right now, what would likely to be the names the Muslims would give to the present day Americas and California ?

This time is real.

Dan1988
November 12th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Well, what would be the Arabic version of Califia, a black Amazon warrior queen that supposedly was the inspiration behind the name "California"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Califia)

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 05:03 PM
1)Is "al-" the only article in Arabic though? I know that in Jerusalem there is a road called the "el-Wad Street", so could there be a possibility of an "el-" name showing up here.

2)Oh yea, and Québec in Arabic: كوبيك. What is that in English?

1)Whether "A" or "E" or any other stand alone vowel, in Arabic you use the same letter for all those, Alif :
ا



2)It can be read as Kuwabaik, Kwibiik, or Kuwabiik.

Ridwan Asher
November 12th, 2007, 05:06 PM
Well, what would be the Arabic version of Califia, a black Amazon warrior queen that supposedly was the inspiration behind the name "California"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Califia)

Well we wouldn't know if the muslims would going to use the same references...

Leo Caesius
November 12th, 2007, 06:16 PM
1)Whether "A" or "E" or any other stand alone vowel, in Arabic you use the same letter for all those, Alif :
ا
That's merely a "seat" which carries the hamza, which itself carries the vowel. The vowel is a fatha, which is traditionally pronounced like the a in cat, but (thanks to the miracle of imaala) is often colloquially pronounced like the e in bet.

The Arabic article consists of three parts: an alif with hamza, which carries a vowel, and the letter l, which frequently assimilates to the following letter (as in 3). Note too that the alif-hamza disappears after another vowel (as in 2 or 4), so the "base form" of the article, al- (seen in 1), is actually quite rare.

1. al-maktab "the office"
2. fi-l-maktab "in the office"
3. ash-sharq "the East"
4. fi-sh-sharq "in the East"

Note that alif-lam (al-) would be written in all of these words, but neither the alif nor the lam are pronounced in 4.

2)It can be read as Kuwabaik, Kwibiik, or Kuwabiik.Or Kuubiik, for that matter.

Thande
November 12th, 2007, 07:11 PM
I wonder what a direct translation of Northumbria (i.e. (Land) north of the river Humber) would be...

Leo Caesius
November 12th, 2007, 07:22 PM
I wonder what a direct translation of Northumbria (i.e. (Land) north of the river Humber) would be...That's easy, just Shamāl al-Humbri (just like Transjordan was Sharq al-Urdunn in Arabic).

Thande
November 12th, 2007, 07:26 PM
That's easy, just Shamāl al-Humbri (just like Transjordan was Sharq al-Urdunn in Arabic).

But which of the different Arabic Hs would it be? ;) I'm tempted to say it might be without a H altogether, just with an ﻉ and the vowel...

Jared
November 12th, 2007, 07:27 PM
I presume that the Arabic name for Australia would be Al-Qaholics.

Chris
November 12th, 2007, 07:46 PM
I presume that the Arabic name for Australia would be Al-Qaholics.

You're not helping

That's easy, just Shamāl al-Humbri (just like Transjordan was Sharq al-Urdunn in Arabic).

Cool. Can you do one for Cambridge?

Chris

Thande
November 12th, 2007, 07:49 PM
Cool. Can you do one for Cambridge?

Chris
That would depend on whether it's a modern translation (with 'Cam' as the name of the river) or one from before the Conquest, when it was called Grantambrycge.

Chris
November 12th, 2007, 07:55 PM
That would depend on whether it's a modern translation (with 'Cam' as the name of the river) or one from before the Conquest, when it was called Grantambrycge.

I need something that is semi-recognisable...

Chris

Leo Caesius
November 12th, 2007, 07:55 PM
But which of the different Arabic Hs would it be? ;) I'm tempted to say it might be without a H altogether, just with an ﻉ and the vowel...Well, the Arabs also have the same h found in English, so unless the Anglo-Saxons had a different h, or didn't pronounce it at all, they would use that one. They're unlikely to use any of the uvular or pharyngeal hs.


Cool. Can you do one for Cambridge?
Sure. Jisr al-Kām (or al-Jiranta, as you wish).

Thande
November 12th, 2007, 07:56 PM
Sure. Jisr al-Kām (or al-Jiranta, as you wish).

The former would sound more recognisable, if that's what al-Khris wants...

Chris
November 12th, 2007, 08:27 PM
The former would sound more recognisable, if that's what al-Khris wants...

Cambridge has a very important role in the Multiverse War.

Chris

Thande
November 12th, 2007, 10:22 PM
Cambridge has a very important role in the Multiverse War.

Chris

Yes, but so far, that very important role has mostly amounted to 'being nuked by the Nazis'... :rolleyes:

(yes, I know you mean that's where the Thande Institute base is, so that's where all their portals come out in the other timelines...)