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View Full Version : An Intelligent Ocean Dwelling Species


Kaptin Kurk
November 10th, 2007, 12:42 AM
Suppose an intelligent water breathing species had developed on Earth. It's intelligence is comparable to humans, and it has manipulators on par with human hands in facility (although they probably aren't hands. Mouths? Tenacles?) Now, how is world history different with these intelligent sea creatures, capable of bulding things and inventing things, floating around in our oceans?

Feel free to propose what species these sea creatures would have evolved from, what their societies would be like, and how they'd relate to man, the air-breather.

Rocano
November 10th, 2007, 12:57 AM
More ASB and Magic Stuff

NomadicSky
November 10th, 2007, 01:38 AM
Not really asb it's very possible that one of the cephalopod species could have intelligence comparable to humans.

Octopuses are highly intelligent animals.

Billi the Axe
November 10th, 2007, 01:47 AM
Ummm , yeah one small problem. Fire is vital to any real tech development, no fire no metals. So they get stone age tech and are wiped out in the 19th century. which is later bemoaned by Liberal's everywhere

JMIII
November 10th, 2007, 02:08 AM
Ummm , yeah one small problem. Fire is vital to any real tech development, no fire no metals. So they get stone age tech and are wiped out in the 19th century. which is later bemoaned by Liberal's everywhere

Excuse me, "Wipe Out"? How can you wipe out a race that lives in the ocean and has HUMAN intelligence, sure they have stone age tech, but they arent stupid and will not hesitate to hide. And the last time i looked the Ocean affords LOTS of hiding spaces, unreachable even by man (with current tech). Short of turning the ocean into vapor, there is no possible way of killing, even biological weapons would be unusable, for the sole fact, that we would have no idea how it would affect the oceans ecosystem. If everything in the ocean died, then humans will be in a very nasty pickle.

Atom
November 10th, 2007, 02:53 AM
Difficult. Technology might be entirely different. Maybe octopuses as an ancestor?

Kaptin Kurk
November 10th, 2007, 02:53 AM
Ummm , yeah one small problem. Fire is vital to any real tech development, no fire no metals. So they get stone age tech and are wiped out in the 19th century. which is later bemoaned by Liberal's everywhere


Well, heat is necessary for metallurgy, not fire. Perhaps they could discover some chemical way of creating heat for their metallurgical experiments, but I'm not a chemist, so I'm not sure. (Although they're are underwater volcanoes, that's seem a pretty unreliable way of constructing metal. )

Rockingham
November 10th, 2007, 05:09 AM
Not only that, but an Ocean dweling species would lack the enviroment necessary for any real mining, electricity etc.

I'm thinking Farming would be difficult, as would large settlements. Forget cities.

So even if its intellectual capacity is higher then ahumans, it won't advance much further then hunter gatherer.

Still, the idea of an oceanic empire, or confederation of tribal ocean peple is intriquing:D....how do you think such entities wouldbe displayed on a map?

Michael B
November 10th, 2007, 06:05 AM
How humans might interact with an intelligent marine species will depend very much where it lives.

If in coast waters then it could be in serious trouble. Humans have hunted whales and fished or centuries so another large creature is going to be a target. However pre-industrial techniques have not reportedly made any large marine creature extinct. (Then again how would we know if one had been?)

If on the surface of the deep ocean where food can be found, it's survival rating is going to be significantly higher. On the other hand there is going to be serious shortage of usable materials for tool making.

If at the bottom of the deep ocean, it would have advantage of access to raw materials together with virtual security from human aggression. In fact until the Modern Era, the lords of the surface may not even know it exists.

The one advantage marine intelligence has over human hunter gatherers would been a virtual immunity to human disease.

Promethean
November 10th, 2007, 08:37 AM
maybe they get on the land after centuries of dwelling in the ocean and start to live on the islands in the pacific?

Flocculencio
November 10th, 2007, 08:52 AM
Mmmm...intellisquid for dinner. The big brains are the best part :D

rewster
November 10th, 2007, 12:15 PM
Why would farming be difficult? These creatures would LIVE in the water... I'm pretty sure they could figure out a better way to build a fish farm than we could. If they can eat algae, then there pretty much isn't even a problem at all.

woodlin
November 10th, 2007, 12:34 PM
it scares me to see the Octopuses swinging up the tree....more scary than snakes.....i prefer to see them in my dishes

Keenir
November 10th, 2007, 12:57 PM
Excuse me, "Wipe Out"? How can you wipe out a race that
and has HUMAN intelligence, sure they have stone age tech, but they arent stupid and will not hesitate to hide.

where are your Neanderthals?
:cool:

And the last time i looked the Ocean affords LOTS of hiding spaces, unreachable even by man (with current tech).

except that few oceanic animals can go anywhere & everywhere in the ocean -- for some, temperature blocks part of the globe, while for others its the pressure, salinity, pH, etc.

ninebucks
November 10th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Farming wouldn't be difficult at all, indeed, I seem to remember seeing some kind of farming crab on some David Attenborough show...

So there's the agricultural revolution accomplished, assuming they can construct stone tools, then they should be able to progress quite swiftly into more advanced agriculture. The developement of big brains also seems to imply an omnivorous diet, so it would be interesting to see what animals these octopods decide to farm.

Indeed, if they get good enough at deep sea farming, they may then have a commodity in which to trade with humans. And, assuming that no technique for underwater smithery is discovered, then trade with humans will be essential.

This new dimension of trade will certainly add a new level of dynamism to humanity maritime cultures...

Promethean
November 10th, 2007, 01:50 PM
would they milk whales?

woodlin
November 10th, 2007, 01:55 PM
would they milk whales?
they milk faster

Atom
November 10th, 2007, 02:36 PM
Thought, If metal rusts, then maybe this species would seek a different material for tools. Plastics? I don't know.:confused:

M79
November 10th, 2007, 03:07 PM
This species is likely to use continental shelves for aquaculture, and they might try to find ways to explore coastal areas much like early humans explored near coastlines using boats. They might not need metal but instead use shells, bones, and other materials as weapons. I'd be interested in what sorts of values/religion they have and exactly what sorts of technology they would be expected to develop. Personally I think their areas of greatest potential are the Caribbean, between Australia and New Guinea, the Indonesian area, and perhaps the Great Barrier Reef or India or the North Sea.

Hendryk
November 10th, 2007, 04:34 PM
I'm thinking Farming would be difficult, as would large settlements.
Algae farming and pisciculture would be possible.

Now, in order for this to be biologically plausible, the POD would have to be quite far back, I suppose at least 50 million years. I dimly remember from biology class that one problem cephalopods have a different type of blood from vertebrates which isn't as efficient to carry oxygen. Perhaps a mutation at some point leads to the emergence of an improved cephalopod species (increased lifespan would be pretty much indispensable as well to develop intelligence)?

Incidentally, The Future Is Wild (http://www.thefutureiswild.com/index.asp?level1id=3&level2id=8&level3id=11&level4id=95) speculates that in 200 million years, a species of intelligent land-dwelling squids might develop.

I must say I have a soft spot for octopi. Maybe it's the tentacles ;)

Promethean
November 10th, 2007, 07:21 PM
Oh yes i have seen that but there the squids got on land before they are getting human intelegent lvl.

Relegion is simple i think
a god of the sea
a god of the corals/reefs?
a god of farming

just like us but in an other way

Kalan
November 11th, 2007, 06:09 AM
In the sea the species could reach a tech comparable to our neolithic age: stones as tools and weapons, houses/tents, agriculture and some domesticated animals. Probably the could also write
When they make contact with the humans it just doesn't make sense that the humans all over the world would decide to exterminate the race.
I'd rather see trade between the to cultures arise, first it would be mostly fish against meat, later it could also be an exchange of iron tools an weapons against raw-material of the sea (which somtimes just lay around on the sea floor).

Uther_Pendragon
November 11th, 2007, 07:10 AM
where are your Neanderthals?

that's the point: they hide themsleve VERY well, so you can't see any of them.:D

FrolicsomeQuipster
November 11th, 2007, 07:14 AM
And, assuming that no technique for underwater smithery is discovered, then trade with humans will be essential.


Maybe they could find a way to extract gold from the ocean.
Not only is it precious to us, but it could be easier to melt/bent, possibly using underwater geysers.

Promethean
November 11th, 2007, 07:42 AM
an extensive gold trade bewteen humans and squids funny