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le.Singe
November 7th, 2007, 09:58 PM
What if Jesus were never crucified? He could have been killed a number of other ways. Poisoned? Stabbed? Fed to lions? Maybe he just died of natural causes. What changes would we see, both in Christianity and history as a whole?

Obviously, crosses would no longer symbolize Christians, which would change heraldry forever. Also, I'm guessing that crucifixion is going to remain a popular method of execution in Europe even after Christianity takes over (assuming it does). Anything else?

Keenir
November 7th, 2007, 10:33 PM
What if Jesus were never crucified? He could have been killed a number of other ways. Poisoned? Stabbed? Fed to lions? Maybe he just died of natural causes. What changes would we see, both in Christianity and history as a whole?

Obviously, crosses would no longer symbolize Christians, which would change heraldry forever. Also, I'm guessing that crucifixion is going to remain a popular method of execution in Europe even after Christianity takes over (assuming it does). Anything else?

there are several options:
* No Christianity -- Jesus is considered a Jewish rabbi, if nearly as schismatic as John the Baptist was.

* No Christianity -- Jesus's followers start a religion after Jesus dies of old age or disease (40? 49?)...and cling to religious survival much as the OTL Mandieans(sp) have done.

* Christianity -- if the Romans don't kill Jesus, who does? the Siccarri? the Persians? the Nabateans or Commagenes?
(if its the Siccarri, that'll end any any Christian claims to Judea or Jerusalem)

le.Singe
November 8th, 2007, 12:16 AM
* Christianity -- if the Romans don't kill Jesus, who does? the Siccarri? the Persians? the Nabateans or Commagenes?
(if its the Siccarri, that'll end any any Christian claims to Judea or Jerusalem)

I never said the Romans couldn't kill Jesus... [:rolleyes: Wow. That would sound funny out of context.] I just said they couldn't nail him to a stick. What about a colosseum-type death? Was that even a possibility? I'm imagining peaceful Jesus dropping his sword in front of thousands of spectators and letting himself be killed. That's one way to draw attention, no?

Redem
November 8th, 2007, 12:20 AM
I never said the Romans couldn't kill Jesus... [:rolleyes: Wow. That would sound funny out of context.] I just said they couldn't nail him to a stick. What about a colosseum-type death? ?

Jesus the gladitor, I'm sure if he had been badass cool enough, I'm sure all six billions of us would be Christian by now :D

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 12:22 AM
I'm imagining peaceful Jesus dropping his sword in front of thousands of spectators and letting himself be killed. That's one way to draw attention, no?How about he sacrifices himself by refusing to submit to despotism, like Hussein? That might have interesting results...

HUCK
November 8th, 2007, 12:25 AM
I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.

le.Singe
November 8th, 2007, 12:31 AM
How about he sacrifices himself by refusing to submit to despotism, like Hussein? That might have interesting results...
So, a Warrior Jesus? That would indeed have very interesting implications. Does he get killed in battle? Could this cause an early demise for the Roman Empire at the hands of Judeo-Christian rebels? This could be very interesting...

Not very consistent with his "turn the other cheek" philosophy, but interesting nonetheless...

I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.
If you believe in predestination, I'd like to know what you're doing on an alternate history forum. Not that there's anything wrong with your beliefs, it's just that the very nature of AH relies on the principle that things might have happened otherwise. In other words, what if God had had a different plan in mind?

Kaptin Kurk
November 8th, 2007, 12:33 AM
I've always been fond of fighting Jesus myself. He grabs the Roman's sword in the garden, lops his head off. Then takes down half a company before finally being brought down. (He's played by Mel Gibson hence forth, of course.)

But at somepoint, he should scream something really patriotic (or religiotic), like "You can kill me, but you can never kill Israel!" of perhaps simply, with an austrian accent of course, 'I'll be back'. Either way, you might get more of the Jews living in Israel to follow him after such a heroic display (as opposed to the Diaspora Jews who seemed to favor him more historically)

Not to mention what would happen if he did, three days latter, appear to his apostle like that....and litterally teach them to be 'Sword-Saints.' Maybe Judiasm / Christianity ends up more like Islam, having stellar and martial success much earlier in its evolution and fanatical warriors, you know, in the image of Mel Gibson..er..I mean Christ. Sweeet!

Maybe Christians even drink real blood at communion...after all....they'd have so much from all their fallen enemies with an Christ-like figure to guide them....

Or...more likely...they'd just be completely wiped out by the Romans...but hey....

Keenir
November 8th, 2007, 01:03 AM
I just said they couldn't nail him to a stick. What about a colosseum-type death? Was that even a possibility?

while The Colosseum[tm] wouldn't be built until long after Jesus died in OTL (around 70 AD or so), there were surely a number of small regional colosseums -- it was a Roman development of an Etruscan funerary tradition, after all.

quote=Leo Caesius;1336732]How about he sacrifices himself by refusing to submit to despotism, like Hussein? That might have interesting results...[/quote]

a martyred & non-crucified Christ. very cool!

I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.

Surely God's intellect would allow Him to have back-up plans in case one line of events failed to pan out. (Free Will kicks in, after all)

Dan1988
November 8th, 2007, 04:04 AM
So what if Jesus fulfilled the Jewish expectations of the Messiah?

HUCK
November 8th, 2007, 04:18 AM
If you believe in predestination, I'd like to know what you're doing on an alternate history forum. Not that there's anything wrong with your beliefs, it's just that the very nature of AH relies on the principle that things might have happened otherwise. In other words, what if God had had a different plan in mind?

But God is all powerful, if He had a different course in mind it would have gone a different way. I, personally just like AH because, I like history. I think we choose how we live, but either way it works in God's favor.

Chengar Qordath
November 8th, 2007, 05:12 AM
* Christianity -- if the Romans don't kill Jesus, who does? the Siccarri? the Persians? the Nabateans or Commagenes?
(if its the Siccarri, that'll end any any Christian claims to Judea or Jerusalem)

Assuming the accounts in the Bible are at least reliable in the basic facts, it seems to me that if Jesus were not killed by the Romans it is quite possible the Jews might take action on their own. Considering how many feathers his teachings ruffled, it seems quite possible that at some point he offends the religious authorities badly enough to end up getting stoned (waits for someone to make a bad joke regarding Jesus getting high). If Christianity still becomes a major religion in an ATL with a stoning instead of a crucifixion Judeo-Christian relations are going to be much nastier than OTL.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
November 8th, 2007, 06:22 AM
Assuming the accounts in the Bible are at least reliable in the basic facts, it seems to me that if Jesus were not killed by the Romans it is quite possible the Jews might take action on their own. Considering how many feathers his teachings ruffled, it seems quite possible that at some point he offends the religious authorities badly enough to end up getting stoned (waits for someone to make a bad joke regarding Jesus getting high). If Christianity still becomes a major religion in an ATL with a stoning instead of a crucifixion Judeo-Christian relations are going to be much nastier than OTL.
DUDE, Jesus was High ...

Well, at Least Pot Would Be Legal ...

As for HUCK, your Position Presumes Information Not in Evidence, Namely that Jesus was in Fact Divine!

Keenir
November 8th, 2007, 12:00 PM
But God is all powerful, if He had a different course in mind it would have gone a different way.
:(
that suggests God is dependant on contingent events, rather than able to do His Will no matter what happens.

I, personally just like AH because, I like history. I think we choose how we live, but either way it works in God's favor.

some One patient enough to let His creation exist for more than a year, would be patient enough to take the long view.

Keenir
November 8th, 2007, 12:01 PM
So what if Jesus fulfilled the Jewish expectations of the Messiah?

some were expecting someone along the lines of Bar Kochba.

not sure what all the other Jewish denominations were expecting.

Keenir
November 8th, 2007, 12:05 PM
Assuming the accounts in the Bible are at least reliable in the basic facts, it seems to me that if Jesus were not killed by the Romans it is quite possible the Jews might take action on their own. Considering how many feathers his teachings ruffled, it seems quite possible that at some point he offends the religious authorities badly enough to end up getting stoned .

except for one problem: to modern and medieval Christians, there might be one group known as Jews -- but in Jesus' day, there were many groups (Pharisees, Saducees, Essenes, Siccarri, etc)...and they didn't all agree on points of religious doctrine.

EDIT: one thing they all had in common, though, was that all were forbidden (by the Romans) to execute anyone -- the Romans claimed that privledge for themselves, and were not shy about using it.

Hendryk
November 8th, 2007, 01:20 PM
I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.

But God is all powerful, if He had a different course in mind it would have gone a different way. I, personally just like AH because, I like history. I think we choose how we live, but either way it works in God's favor.
The Bible itself explicitly mentions God changing His plans. Are you saying the Bible is wrong? :p

The idea that history was predetermined by God from the very beginning isn't only incompatible with the very concept of AH, as le.Singe has observed, it also necessarily leads to a refutation of God's own words in Genesis. On at least two occasions, He was displayed being forced by events to change His plans, and both times the changes were radical indeed.

The first one was none other than the Fall; unless one is going to argue that God intended all along for Satan to sneak in, and tempt Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit so He could kick them out of Eden, then the Fall wasn't part of God's original plan.

The second one was, obviously enough, the Flood. Here we have it in the big guy's own words (Genesis 6:5-7):

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

RPW@Cy
November 8th, 2007, 01:30 PM
EDIT: one thing they all had in common, though, was that all were forbidden (by the Romans) to execute anyone -- the Romans claimed that privledge for themselves, and were not shy about using it.

That only applies to legal executions, it doesn't stop a lynch mob from getting him - which is I assume what was being referred to. Jesus meeting the same fate as St. Stephen, in other words. Would this make a stone the symbol of Christianity? Bishops carrying things that look like maces?

But yes, I think that in such a scenario the prediction that anti-Semitism would be even nastier is spot on:(

el t
November 8th, 2007, 02:38 PM
This question is more theological than historical. The Jesus of the gospels has never even been historically verified. I am of the opinion that Christianity is based upon a mythological Christ. Therefore to debate whether he was crucified or not really is not relevant.

Chengar Qordath
November 8th, 2007, 02:46 PM
That only applies to legal executions, it doesn't stop a lynch mob from getting him - which is I assume what was being referred to. Jesus meeting the same fate as St. Stephen, in other words. Would this make a stone the symbol of Christianity? Bishops carrying things that look like maces?

But yes, I think that in such a scenario the prediction that anti-Semitism would be even nastier is spot on:(

Some sort of lynch mob was pretty much what I had in mind, yes. It doesn't seem to much of a stretch to have his teachings provoke a riot of some sort amongst the people who disagree with them, and an extrajudicial stoning isn't too hard arrange since all you need is some angry people and plenty of throwing-sized rocks.

It might be interesting to see how Christian relations with the Romans were altered by such a change. Presumably the Romans are going to do their best to break up the riot/lynch mob that kills Jesus; they were opposed to those kinds of things on general principle. Between that and the fact that he was not executed by Rome relations between Christians and Romans might be friendlier than OTL.

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Oh, for Christ's sake listen to yourself. Because you "are of the opinion" that something didn't happen, there's no point in discussing it at all? That's pretty fucking arrogant, if you'll pardon my French.

I wish people would stop confusing historical revisionism with alternate history. You're completely entitled to your own opinions on the subject, but you're not entitled to denigrate other people's beliefs.

MrP
November 8th, 2007, 02:49 PM
This question is more theological than historical. The Jesus of the gospels has never even been historically verified. I am of the opinion that Christianity is based upon a mythological Christ. Therefore to debate whether he was crucified or not really is not relevant.

You ever met AMBOMB? ;)

Nekromans
November 8th, 2007, 02:57 PM
You ever met AMBOMB? ;)

He did recommend this rather interesting book - somethink about Jesus and mysteries. Personally, I'm rather looking forward to it - Jesus the detective? Rock on!

el t
November 8th, 2007, 03:36 PM
I don't think that a theological topic is appropriate for this. The life of Jesus is not like debating something like what would have happened if the Muslims had won the battle of Tours. Jesus is best left to the theologians rather than the historians.

Don_Giorgio
November 8th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Jesus had to be crucified... He was destined to die in the most horrible and despicable way so to carry the sins of the world...

edvader
November 8th, 2007, 03:40 PM
There was an WI article in one of the What Ifs books.Don't know what volume but I will look it up.Jesus is not crucified and allowed to return home and amasses a large following.His thoughts and sayings spread over the Empire and even beyond.He dies at 97 and after burial his body disappears and people start seeing the risen Christ.The article ends with Constantine deciding where to build a new -synagogue.The books may still be in print.Anyone remember the author?

MrP
November 8th, 2007, 03:42 PM
I don't think that a theological topic is appropriate for this. The life of Jesus is not like debating something like what would have happened if the Muslims had won the battle of Tours. Jesus is best left to the theologians rather than the historians.

It's a legitimate thing to consider. I don't particularly feel comfortable with discussions about religious figures - especially the dozen or so WI no Muhammed threads :rolleyes: - but there's no real reason for people not to consider them calmly, tastefully and politely. If accepting - for the sake of an intellectual exercise - the possibility of the existence of the Biblical Jesus is not to your taste, then you could consider - since you seem to hold that the Biblical account was fictionalised from pre-existing sources - that this debate is about how the world would be if the account had been fictionalised in a different manner.

MrP
November 8th, 2007, 03:45 PM
There was an WI article in one of the What Ifs books.Don't know what volume but I will look it up.Jesus is not crucified and allowed to return home and amasses a large following.His thoughts and sayings spread over the Empire and even beyond.He dies at 97 and after burial his body disappears and people start seeing the risen Christ.The article ends with Constantine deciding where to build a new -synagogue.The books may still be in print.Anyone remember the author?

It's in More What If? Pontius Pilate Spares Jesus, Carlos M. N. Eire, pp.48 ff.

Hendryk
November 8th, 2007, 03:55 PM
Jesus had to be crucified... He was destined to die in the most horrible and despicable way so to carry the sins of the world...
Even assuming for the sake of the argument that this whole Son of God thing is true (and it does take quite a bit of intellectual effort), I can think of half a dozen equally gruesome ways for him to die. He could have been impaled, for example--leading Christians to use a sharp stick as their holy symbol.

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 04:00 PM
Very well. What historical evidence do we have for the battle of Tours and how is it superior to that for Jesus?

I'm not one to suggest that any religious beliefs or traditions should be completely immune from analysis. That's why I would disagree that events from the life of the historical Jesus constitute a legitimate arena for contrafactual speculation until evidence is provided to indicate that the historical record is mistaken in this regard.

Wozza
November 8th, 2007, 04:08 PM
This question is more theological than historical. The Jesus of the gospels has never even been historically verified. I am of the opinion that Christianity is based upon a mythological Christ. Therefore to debate whether he was crucified or not really is not relevant.

I would like to find something that has been "historically verified." I am amazed that I did not learn what this means in the course of a history degree.

The answer to this exercise is simple: list me 10 historical figures from before 500 AD. Tell me how many contemporary sources attest to that figure's existence, the broad reliability of those sources, the extent to which those sources can be considered history not stylised literary exerices and the gap between the date of the production of the source and the date of our earliest surviving copy.

Then, if you still think that Jesus is not historically verified go around the internet and point out that Pericles, Themistocles, Cleomenes, Sulla and Hannibal are not "historically verified" either.

Hendryk
November 8th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Then, if you still think that Jesus is not historically verified go around the internet and point out that Pericles, Themistocles, Cleomenes, Sulla and Hannibal are not "historically verified" either.
Well, to be fair, this isn't AMBOMB-level obtuseness, more like healthy skepticism taken a wee bit too far. It is true there is precious little reliable information about Jesus save for a couple of passing mentions in official documents, which may or may not be about that specific Jesus, and of course the outlandish tales spread by his followers decades after his death. I mean, when I read in a given story how a man walked on water and battled demons, that tends to diminish my trust in said story's reliability as a historical document (you certainly don't read anything like that even in the most enthusiastic sources about, say, Pericles).

Note that I personally don't deny that a Jewish reformer named Jesus lived in the early 1st century CE, that he said a number of stirring things, some of which were much later put to paper though in a garbled way and with apocryphal additions, that he got into more trouble than he could handle and was executed; and that he became the inspiration for a cult which gradually rose to prominence until it became recognizable as the Christianity we're familiar with.

MrP
November 8th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Well, to be fair, this isn't AMBOMB-level obtuseness, more like healthy skepticism taken a wee bit too far. It is true there is precious little reliable information about Jesus save for a couple of passing mentions in official documents, which may or may not be about that specific Jesus, and of course the outlandish tales spread by his followers decades after his death. I mean, when I read in a given story how a man walked on water and battled demons, that tends to diminish my trust in said story's reliability as a historical document (you certainly don't read anything like that even in the most enthusiastic sources about, say, Pericles).

Note that I personally don't deny that a Jewish reformer named Jesus lived in the early 1st century CE, that he said a number of stirring things, some of which were much later put to paper though in a garbled way and with apocryphal additions, that he got into more trouble than he could handle and was executed; and that he became the inspiration for a cult which gradually rose to prominence until it became recognizable as the Christianity we're familiar with.

There are a couple of contemporary figures who are described to have similar miraculous powers - I forget the names (I think there was a Simon and an Apollonios, but who knows?), but I recall covering them during my BA . . . or my MA. It all blurs into one. And they had some short-lived cults, IIRC.

Dan1988
November 8th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Jesus had to be crucified... He was destined to die in the most horrible and despicable way so to carry the sins of the world...

Not everybody holds this view, Giorgios.

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 04:31 PM
There are a couple of contemporary figures who are described to have similar miraculous powers - I forget the names (I think there was a Simon and an Apollonios, but who knows?), but I recall covering them during my BA . . . or my MA. It all blurs into one. And they had some short-lived cults, IIRC.Well, Vergil metamorphosized into a magician during the Middle Ages. There are all kinds of interesting tales about him.

Miraculous powers were also attributed to Pythagoras, and he even has the benefit of being the founder of a cult of sorts. Should we suspend any and all discussion about either of these two figures, and leave it up to the theologians?

Wozza
November 8th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Well, to be fair, this isn't AMBOMB-level obtuseness, more like healthy skepticism taken a wee bit too far. It is true there is precious little reliable information about Jesus save for a couple of passing mentions in official documents, which may or may not be about that specific Jesus, and of course the outlandish tales spread by his followers decades after his death. I mean, when I read in a given story how a man walked on water and battled demons, that tends to diminish my trust in said story's reliability as a historical document (you certainly don't read anything like that even in the most enthusiastic sources about, say, Pericles).

Note that I personally don't deny that a Jewish reformer named Jesus lived in the early 1st century CE, that he said a number of stirring things, some of which were much later put to paper though in a garbled way and with apocryphal additions, that he got into more trouble than he could handle and was executed; and that he became the inspiration for a cult which gradually rose to prominence until it became recognizable as the Christianity we're familiar with.

Yes, I agree, this is nothing like that AMBOMB epidode.

The Gospels do score well in date terms - they were produced soon after the time and we have early copies - 200AD for Luke for instance.

There is an interesting philosophical discussion about what we should believe in texts - we discount "miracles" because they do not accord with our world view, but is it really rational to do so?

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 04:45 PM
Yes, I agree, this is nothing like that AMBOMB epidode.
I suppose I may have been too hasty with el t. It's just that this same argument comes up every time we discuss this issue and I thought it best to nip it in the bud.

There is an interesting philosophical discussion about what we should believe in texts - we discount "miracles" because they do not accord with our world view, but is it really rational to do so?Not really. Certainly it cannot be the sole basis for discounting the historicity of a figure. After all, miracles continue to be attributed to figures even in the present day, the historicity of which is beyond denial.

Wozza
November 8th, 2007, 04:47 PM
Not really. Certainly it cannot be the sole basis for discounting the historicity of a figure. After all, miracles continue to be attributed to figures even in the present day, the historicity of which is beyond denial.

By beyond denial you mean we can or cannot deny them?

There are plenty of records of miraculous healings in the present day by faith healers. Many are obviously rubbish but others less so.

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 04:51 PM
By beyond denial you mean we can or cannot deny them?Perhaps the modifier was misplaced. I meant to say that we wouldn't dream of denying the existence of people like Joseph Smith, JPII, or Sai Baba. If civilization is still a going concern in two millennia, then someone very well may.

Wozza
November 8th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Perhaps the modifier was misplaced. I meant to say that we wouldn't dream of denying the existence of people like Joseph Smith, JPII, or Sai Baba. If civilization is still a going concern in two millennia, then someone very well may.

Oh, I was referring not to the practitioners but to the truth of the alleged mirales.

MrP
November 8th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Well, Vergil metamorphosized into a magician during the Middle Ages. There are all kinds of interesting tales about him.

Miraculous powers were also attributed to Pythagoras, and he even has the benefit of being the founder of a cult of sorts. Should we suspend any and all discussion about either of these two figures, and leave it up to the theologians?

A magician, eh? That's rather good. :D

Aha, I found him! http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius08.html

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 05:05 PM
Oh, I was referring not to the practitioners but to the truth of the alleged mirales.Who is to say? I deal with magical texts myself. I haven't yet attempted to summon up any demons or make someone fall in love with me yet.

Leo Caesius
November 8th, 2007, 05:25 PM
As for the original topic of the thread, the Talmud relates that Jesus was first stoned, then "hung on a tree," by which they probably mean crucified. This all happened on the eve of Passover in Lydda, birthplace of St. George, which is today Lod, a suburb of Tel Aviv.

Dan1988
November 8th, 2007, 05:34 PM
So Jesus's grave is below a runway of Ben-Guiron Airport? That's interesting.:D

Keenir
November 8th, 2007, 09:36 PM
So Jesus's grave is below a runway of Ben-Guiron Airport? That's interesting.:D

I'm surprised the world Christian Community isn't up in arms over that. ;)


Jesus had to be crucified... He was destined to die in the most horrible and despicable way so to carry the sins of the world...

but there are ways much more horrible and despicable to die. even back then there were.

and "despicable"? the cross was for evildoers - thats about as despicable as it was.

That only applies to legal executions, it doesn't stop a lynch mob from getting him - which is I assume what was being referred to. Jesus meeting the same fate as St. Stephen, in other words. Would this make a stone the symbol of Christianity?

Maybe.

In any event, the Roman authorities would slam down hard on the mob -- *Christianity might end up seeing the Romans as the Hand Of God...which won't hurt their missionary efforts in other parts of the Roman Empire.


with them, and an extrajudicial stoning isn't too hard arrange since all you need is some angry people and plenty of throwing-sized rocks.

I just can't imagine that there won't be people who remember how the Romans cracked down on the last few riots.

but, as the Mythbusters say, Plausible.

It might be interesting to see how Christian relations with the Romans were altered by such a change. Presumably the Romans are going to do their best to break up the riot/lynch mob that kills Jesus; they were opposed to those kinds of things on general principle. Between that and the fact that he was not executed by Rome relations between Christians and Romans might be friendlier than OTL.

*nods*

le.Singe
November 8th, 2007, 11:33 PM
As for the original topic of the thread, the Talmud relates that Jesus was first stoned, then "hung on a tree," by which they probably mean crucified. This all happened on the eve of Passover in Lydda, birthplace of St. George, which is today Lod, a suburb of Tel Aviv.

Stoned? The Talmud says that? Does it say who did the stoning?

If Jesus were stoned to death, I highly doubt that the symbol of Christianity would become a rock, though (I forget who suggested that, but someone did on the first page). Most likely, it would be the "chi rho" symbol (>P<), or maybe the fish thing you sometimes see on cars, neither of which is as visually appealing as the Latin cross. The cross is also quite easily modified and manipulated to make cool-looking flags and coats of arms, and the other two symbols are not. So what? Does this have any serious implications beyond "flags are uglier?" Will Christianity's popularity be affected?

Flocculencio
November 8th, 2007, 11:45 PM
He did recommend this rather interesting book - somethink about Jesus and mysteries. Personally, I'm rather looking forward to it - Jesus the detective? Rock on!

I looked up as the dame entered my office. Mysterious, but then they always are.

"What's your name, miss?" I asked.

"Magdalene, Mary Magdalene."

Well, she had the same name as my mom but she sure looked a whole lot different.

"Mind if I smoke?" she asked in a husky drawl.
"Go ahead, lady," I said, "Let there be light."

And her cigarette was lit.

"Now why'd you want to see me?" I asked, "If most people have problems they usually go to the Tribune and he sorts it right out."

"This is the kind of problem the Romans can't help me with," she said, languidly exhaling, "Priest problems."

This sounded interesting- I reached for my notebook but it was just then that five angry Levites burst through the door.

le.Singe
November 8th, 2007, 11:52 PM
I looked up as the dame entered my office. Mysterious, but then they always are.

"What's your name, miss?" I asked.

"Magdalene, Mary Magdalene."

Well, she had the same name as my mom but she sure looked a whole lot different.

"Mind if I smoke?" she asked in a husky drawl.
"Go ahead, lady," I said, "Let there be light."

And her cigarette was lit.

"Now why'd you want to see me?" I asked, "If most people have problems they usually go to the Tribune and he sorts it right out."

"This is the kind of problem the Romans can't help me with," she said, languidly exhaling, "Priest problems."

This sounded interesting- I reached for my notebook but it was just then that five angry Levites burst through the door.

"I can try, lady, but I ain't promising no miracles..." :D

Blizrun
November 9th, 2007, 12:03 AM
. . .

Y'all are going to Hell.

;):D

sunsurf
November 9th, 2007, 12:30 AM
In Howard Waldrop's novel, Them Bones, the Moslems colonized the Americas. It seems Jesus was stoned by the disciples.:eek:

Well, what if the disciples stone Jesus to death, then the Resurrection happens three days later...:D (That's not what happens in the novel, but oh, well...)

Tocomocho
November 9th, 2007, 12:38 AM
In Howard Waldrop's novel, Them Bones, the Moslems colonized the Americas. It seems Jesus was stoned by the disciples.:eek:

Well, what if the disciples stone Jesus to death, then the Resurrection happens three days later...:D (That's not what happens in the novel, but oh, well...)

And how did Islam develop whithout the influence of Old Prophet Yeshua? Uh, I hate lazy writers who don't care about main inconsistencies in their plots...

Keenir
November 9th, 2007, 12:54 AM
. . .

Y'all are going to Hell.

;):D

to quote 'Hell is other people'.

specifically, bad trolls.
:D

ZaphodBeeblebrox
November 9th, 2007, 01:45 AM
There was an WI article in one of the What Ifs books.Don't know what volume but I will look it up.Jesus is not crucified and allowed to return home and amasses a large following.His thoughts and sayings spread over the Empire and even beyond.He dies at 97 and after burial his body disappears and people start seeing the risen Christ.The article ends with Constantine deciding where to build a new -synagogue.The books may still be in print.Anyone remember the author?
It's in More What If? Pontius Pilate Spares Jesus, Carlos M. N. Eire, pp.48 ff.
I LOVED that Story ...

Strangely Enough, My First thought on Reading it ...

Was, Now that's a Christianity I Could Belong to!

:eek:

sunsurf
November 9th, 2007, 02:16 AM
And how did Islam develop whithout the influence of Old Prophet Yeshua? Uh, I hate lazy writers who don't care about main inconsistencies in their plots...
Yeah, he doesn't deal with that. :rolleyes:

But...willing suspension of disbelief...I was willing to assume some new religion influenced by Judaism might have arisen.

to quote 'Hell is other people'.

specifically, bad trolls.
:D


Don't forget, (http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Pointless/Cities.html) there's a small town in
central Michigan (http://www.philbrodieband.com/jokes-jokes_town_names.htm) by that name (http://www.accuracyproject.org/town-Hell.html).

Notice the number of Star Trek-related town names...assuming the list is accurate! :eek: (http://www.accuracyproject.org/towns.html)

:D

Chengar Qordath
November 9th, 2007, 03:00 AM
I LOVED that Story ...

Strangely Enough, My First thought on Reading it ...

Was, Now that's a Christianity I Could Belong to!

:eek:

Bah, give me an ATL where the neo-Platonists are in power any day over a more Jewish Christianity. Then at least I wouldn't be so strange for being an odd variety of neo-Platonist in predominantly Christian country.

Then again, with all the butterflies from changing te world's dominant religion, I would probably either not exist or end up with a new set of religious ideology that is still bizzare for the times I live in.

Leo Caesius
November 9th, 2007, 03:54 AM
Stoned? The Talmud says that? Does it say who did the stoning?No, the references are pretty muddled, for obvious reasons. The clearest reference is found in Tractate Sanhedrin 43a (http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_43.html) in the section on stonings.

If Jesus were stoned to death, I highly doubt that the symbol of Christianity would become a rock, though (I forget who suggested that, but someone did on the first page). Most likely, it would be the "chi rho" symbol (>P<), or maybe the fish thing you sometimes see on cars, neither of which is as visually appealing as the Latin cross.Other early Christian symbols include the dove (often with olive branch), the anchor (on the basis of Hebrews 6:19-20), palm branches, the IHS monogram (that Jack Chick thinks stands for Isis, Horus, and Seth), and the alpha and omega. Some of these might lend themselves to being stylized.

Dan1988
November 9th, 2007, 03:57 AM
Don't forget, (http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Pointless/Cities.html)there's a small town in
central Michigan (http://www.philbrodieband.com/jokes-jokes_town_names.htm) by that name (http://www.accuracyproject.org/town-Hell.html).

Notice the number of Star Trek-related town names...assuming the list is accurate! :eek: (http://www.accuracyproject.org/towns.html)

:D

That just made me laugh.

Count Dearborn
November 9th, 2007, 04:57 AM
One of my university professors, a former minister by the way, always made jokes about how Christians would have ended up with a stone as a holy symbol if the Jews had gotten their way.

What if Joshua-ben-Joseph had faked his death?

Keenir
November 9th, 2007, 05:45 AM
What if Joshua-ben-Joseph had faked his death?

kind of hard to fake a death by crucifixion (though if Jesus-ben-YHWH had been taken down in time...).....but death by ascension into Heaven? hm

Don_Giorgio
November 9th, 2007, 07:38 AM
According to Mosaic Law Jesus had to be stoned for blasphemy... But because Judaea was a Roman province under a Procurator the death penalty imposed to him by the Sanhedrin had to be ratified by the Procurator... So the Romans did the "dirty job" for the Jews... in a Roman way... Since Jesus was a Jew "a mere rebel" in the eyes of the Romans the only way to die was on the cross as a traitor of faith (which the Romans didnt care of...) and of Caesar... If he was a Roman Citizen he would have been decapitated which is a "noble" death penalty... But if another way to kill him was chosen none of the Prophecies would be fullfilled and he would be soon forgotten as a false prophet... Jesus was destined to die on the cross as a traitor in the deepest humiliation hated by his fellow countrymen and mocked by the Romans and become the "scaping goat" carrying all the sins of the World... And with his Resurrection taking every righteous dead in heaven...

A Random Person
November 5th, 2008, 02:51 AM
The Cruxifixion was inevitable, this is my area of study and there is three plausable solutions.

1) OTL - Jesus is arrested by the Sanhedrin and turned over to the romans, who HAD to cruxify him as per law.
(only two types of executions for non-prisoners and non-slaves, if you were a roman citizen you would be beheaded, if you were not as in this case it was a cruxifixion)

2) The Sanhedrin in ignores Jesus until the romans are threatening a massicre (as per all other messiah claims, such as "the Egyptian" and Bar Kochbah) then they had to either
A) turn Jesus over at that point in which he would be cruxified.
B) keep ignoring until the Romans attack in which they cruxify the "leader" (Jesus) as a show of power.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jn%2011:48&version=31


P.S. I know my spelling is horrible, I am very prone to typos

carlton_bach
November 5th, 2008, 10:24 AM
The Cruxifixion was inevitable, this is my area of study and there is three plausable solutions.

1) OTL - Jesus is arrested by the Sanhedrin and turned over to the romans, who HAD to cruxify him as per law.
(only two types of executions for non-prisoners and non-slaves, if you were a roman citizen you would be beheaded, if you were not as in this case it was a cruxifixion)


Roman law does not mandate crucifixion. Pilate did not have the option of beheading (except informally) and there are no specific punishments mandated for fomenting rebellion, but there was always the option to sentence ad metallis, ad bestias, and, of course, a noncapital count. Pilate was not constrained by any minimum sentencing guideline.


2) The Sanhedrin in ignores Jesus until the romans are threatening a massicre (as per all other messiah claims, such as "the Egyptian" and Bar Kochbah) then they had to either


Why would the Sanhedrin choose to protect Jesus in the first place? If we can trust the Gospel narrative, they were actively trying to capture him. Of course, trusting the Gospel narrative on these issues is iffy, but still, it's the only material on that point we have. Even if the Sanhedrin's role in the crucifixion is politically slanted there, though, why reason would they have to shield a nonorthodox, rogue preacher?

bernooch
November 5th, 2008, 11:15 AM
I'm sorry, but that is not possible. God already had a plan layed out and would have seen this forecoming and done something about. Jesus was destined to die on the cross.


OMG..I'm being nice...see I am biting my tongue....Pre-destination is SOOOOOOOOOO Calvinistic...see that was kind of nice....

bernooch
November 5th, 2008, 11:16 AM
DUDE, Jesus was High ...

Well, at Least Pot Would Be Legal ...

As for HUCK, your Position Presumes Information Not in Evidence, Namely that Jesus was in Fact Divine!


Thank goodness....intelligence still can be found if you look under enough rocks....

bernooch
November 5th, 2008, 11:20 AM
This question is more theological than historical. The Jesus of the gospels has never even been historically verified. I am of the opinion that Christianity is based upon a mythological Christ. Therefore to debate whether he was crucified or not really is not relevant.

applaud applaud applaud...could you be referring to the Mythological Christ invented by Paul.....I think that Josephus and a couple other sources are enough to establish the Yeshua Bar Joseph was historical...just don't believe you can use the Gospels, Acts and Pauline letters to establish and spout his divinity

bernooch
November 5th, 2008, 11:22 AM
It's a legitimate thing to consider. I don't particularly feel comfortable with discussions about religious figures - especially the dozen or so WI no Muhammed threads :rolleyes: - but there's no real reason for people not to consider them calmly, tastefully and politely. If accepting - for the sake of an intellectual exercise - the possibility of the existence of the Biblical Jesus is not to your taste, then you could consider - since you seem to hold that the Biblical account was fictionalised from pre-existing sources - that this debate is about how the world would be if the account had been fictionalised in a different manner.


Wow...this I like....good job on how we can all live in harmony

Sorry...I am not very adept at multiple-quoting...please forgive me my sins of posting faux-pas

Twin City Lines
November 5th, 2008, 06:03 PM
But God is all powerful, if He had a different course in mind it would have gone a different way. I, personally just like AH because, I like history. I think we choose how we live, but either way it works in God's favor.

This is one of the reasons I consider Christianity to be illogical. If God preordained everything, how can there be such a thing as "sin"? For example, if God's plan was for someone to be murdered for some cosmic purpose, how can the murderer be in violation of God's law? It would seem to me that everyone, no matter what they do, is doing God's work in such a preordained world....

Mike Stearns
November 5th, 2008, 06:52 PM
1) OTL - Jesus is arrested by the Sanhedrin and turned over to the romans, who HAD to cruxify him as per law.

Sorry, but no. Pilate didn't HAVE to crucify Christ and in fact tried to avoid doing so. The Jews had a Passover tradition whereby a criminal would be released. Pilate tried to use this loophole to set Jesus free, exepct that the Pharisees didn't want Jesus to live. The only reason Pilate order Jesus to be crucified was because he was afraid that the Jews would riot if he didn't.

In answer to Twin City Lines' question, sin exists because God gave man the ability to choose.

Twin City Lines
November 5th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Sorry, but no. Pilate didn't HAVE to crucify Christ and in fact tried to avoid doing so. The Jews had a Passover tradition whereby a criminal would be released. Pilate tried to use this loophole to set Jesus free, exepct that the Pharisees didn't want Jesus to live. The only reason Pilate order Jesus to be crucified was because he was afraid that the Jews would riot if he didn't.

In answer to Twin City Lines' question, sin exists because God gave man the ability to choose.

OK but if man's choices are supposedly "according to God's Plan" how can they be sins? Are you saying that fulfilling God's Plan is a sin?

Andrew Hudson
November 10th, 2008, 04:48 PM
According to the Koran he wasn't. Judas was cruxified in error. However assuming the New Testament is correct and he was cruxified would history have been different? Probably yes as it is unlikely that Christianity would have developed as a major religion. However a lot depends on how mucu influence he had as a teacher and whether he was involved in resistance to Roman rule. Islam could still have become a major religion as it was largely dervied from a Judaic root it would just have meant either one prophet less or Jesus fulfilling the role the Moslems believe he fulfilled anyway.

Europe? I don't know much about the Roman religions but Northern Europe would have probably continued to worship Nordic Gods

A Random Person
November 10th, 2008, 05:25 PM
This is one of the reasons I consider Christianity to be illogical. If God preordained everything, how can there be such a thing as "sin"? For example, if God's plan was for someone to be murdered for some cosmic purpose, how can the murderer be in violation of God's law? It would seem to me that everyone, no matter what they do, is doing God's work in such a preordained world....

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” -Stuart Chase

HJ Tulp
November 10th, 2008, 06:16 PM
So, a Warrior Jesus? That would indeed have very interesting implications. Does he get killed in battle? Could this cause an early demise for the Roman Empire at the hands of Judeo-Christian rebels? This could be very interesting...

Not very consistent with his "turn the other cheek" philosophy, but interesting nonetheless...




Actually, there are sources that suggest that Jezus was actually a minor rebel leader that was taken prisoner after a failed attack on Jeruzalem.

TIMER
November 10th, 2008, 07:23 PM
If Jesus wasn't crucified instead freed by Pilot, He probably would have taken his wife Marys advice and moved to southern Gaul and raised his children. When he finally died of old age his father would have told him that he was a screw up, that he was supposed to die for peoples sin not to live.

As a side thought when He got to Gaul he could have made a good living by buying a piece of land with a steady water supply and going into the wine business.

Hashasheen
November 10th, 2008, 07:51 PM
If Jesus wasn't crucified instead freed by Pilot, He probably would have taken his wife Marys advice and moved to southern Gaul and raised his children. When he finally died of old age his father would have told him that he was a screw up, that he was supposed to die for peoples sin not to live.

As a side thought when He got to Gaul he could have made a good living by buying a piece of land with a steady water supply and going into the wine business.
is this a joke? if so, not a very good one.

Lord Grattan
November 10th, 2008, 08:04 PM
If Jesus wasn't crucified instead freed by Pilot, He probably would have taken his wife Marys advice and moved to southern Gaul and raised his children. When he finally died of old age his father would have told him that he was a screw up, that he was supposed to die for peoples sin not to live.

As a side thought when He got to Gaul he could have made a good living by buying a piece of land with a steady water supply and going into the wine business.


Your humor (?) is in poor taste.

TIMER
November 11th, 2008, 12:07 AM
Your humor (?) is in poor taste.


Which part ? That he might have been married ? That he might have had children ? Or that he might have been the son of God ?

Various numbers of people around the world believe one or more of these things and all of them have the same level of provability.

The thought that he might make a living in the wine business wasn't that good a joke but also not in that bad of taste.

If you mean the part where God would be upset that his plan didn't work out the way he intended it to the bible seems to indicate that in the past when things didn't go his way he got rather pissy IE: expulsion from garden, floods, plagues, pillars of salt etc. I thought that the reaction I described for him was quite moderate in the circumstances.


So which part of my post was most upsetting?