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Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 08:32 AM
In 1525 King Henry VIII petitioned the Pope to annul his marriage with Catherine of Aragon on the ground that his marriage was illegal on the first place (since Catherine was married to his brother Arthur at first)...
Clement VII refused the annulment because he didnot wanted to displease Charles V (Catherine was his aunt...)
Henry VIII broke away from Rome then and was excommunicated by the Pope...
WI Clement VII agreed to the annulment? Could England remained Catholic after 1533???

Analytical Engine
November 6th, 2007, 08:38 AM
WI Clement VII agreed to the annulment? Could England remained Catholic after 1533???

Probably.

But his Holyness will have one very annoyed Emperor to deal with... ;)

Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 09:06 AM
Probably.

But his Holyness will have one very annoyed Emperor to deal with... ;)

Oh yes... But he would have the protection of England and France and they would deal with Charles V...

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2007, 09:23 AM
Oh yes... But he would have the protection of England and France and they would deal with Charles V...

Deal with in a military sense??

aktarian
November 6th, 2007, 09:25 AM
http://www.alternatehistory.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=74050

Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 09:37 AM
Deal with in a military sense??

Probably... if an angry Charles V invaded the Papal states France would have retaliated...

Earling
November 6th, 2007, 10:44 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(1527)

Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 11:34 AM
Besides the King of France would have seen it as an oppurtunity to seize the Papacy as Philippe IV did in 14th century...

Faeelin
November 6th, 2007, 12:11 PM
Hrmm. Could this lead to something like the Wars of Religion in England? A Catholic monarchy with a large Protestant population?

Okay, so this isn't very much like the Wars of Religion, since the Huenots were a fairly small minority, but still.

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2007, 12:11 PM
Besides the King of France would have seen it as an oppurtunity to seize the Papacy as Philippe IV did in 14th century...

A possible candidate to succeed Clement VII might be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_du_Bellay

Granted he didn't become a cardinal until 1535 IOTL but Francis I might persuade Clement to make him one earlier by way of thanks

Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 12:15 PM
Yeap... But u have England in coalition with France against HRE and Spain... 4 Major Catholic powers fighting each other...
This conflict might have influenced Church history too... (deadlocked Conclaves with French/English Cardinals fighting HRE/Spanish Cardinals and the Italians acting as Kingmakers... that would be soooo funny!!!:D:eek::D:eek:)

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2007, 12:16 PM
Hrmm. Could this lead to something like the Wars of Religion in England? A Catholic monarchy with a large Protestant population?

Okay, so this isn't very much like the Wars of Religion, since the Huenots were a fairly small minority, but still.

Would there be a figurehead of the Prostestant faction

Sgt Detritus
November 6th, 2007, 12:19 PM
Yeap... But u have England in coalition with France against HRE and Spain... 4 Major Catholic powers fighting each other...
This conflict might have influenced Church history too... (deadlocked Conclaves with French/English Cardinals fighting HRE/Spanish Cardinals and the Italians acting as Kingmakers... that would be soooo funny!!!:D:eek::D:eek:)

A bit like the Papal Conclave of 1449-1450 IOTL?

Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 01:46 PM
A bit like the Papal Conclave of 1449-1450 IOTL?

Something similar... but i see the Cardinals electing someone really neutral... perhaps an Italian or someone who is not connected to the 4 Catholic powers... who would be the candidate? Someone who is not English/French/Spanish/HRE... tough question... I am expecting a long long Conclave... maybe longer than the interregnum between the death of Clement IV and the election of Gregory X...

Ace Venom
November 6th, 2007, 02:23 PM
It would probably have taken something bad happening to Charles V for Clement VII to grant the annulment.

Analytical Engine
November 6th, 2007, 02:30 PM
It would probably have taken something bad happening to Charles V for Clement VII to grant the annulment.

Illness? :confused:

Death? :confused:

Ace Venom
November 6th, 2007, 02:34 PM
Illness? :confused:

Death? :confused:

Either one. Take away the fear of Charles V and Clement VII might be willing to grant the annulment. I won't say for sure.

Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 03:11 PM
Couldnt just Charles V agree to the annulment and just remarry Katherine to another Noble/King and forge a new alliance? (maybe against Henry VIII...)
Any possible candidates for the Papal throne ammidst the religious turmoil in Europe?

Analytical Engine
November 6th, 2007, 03:12 PM
Couldnt just Charles V agree to the annulment and just remarry Katherine to another Noble/King and forge a new alliance? (maybe against Henry VIII...)

But... why? :confused:

Besides, if Henry had just waited a few more months, Catherine would have died anyway.

Don_Giorgio
November 6th, 2007, 06:27 PM
Well Henry couldnt wait... He had to legitimize his child from Anne Boleyn... He needed the Papal dispensation to dissolve his marriage and marry her ASAP...
But the real problem starts when Clement VII dies (assassination perhaps?) and the Cardinals have to choose a new Pope... England remains Catholic and has a strong voice in the College of Cardinals... Maybe Henry VIII can buy the election of an English Cardinal... Wolsey perhaps?

numberone
November 6th, 2007, 06:46 PM
How about Charles V retaliates by splitting off from the church, after the annulment. It would be a great POD for a book about the subject.

Sgt Detritus
November 7th, 2007, 11:11 AM
Well Henry couldnt wait... He had to legitimize his child from Anne Boleyn... He needed the Papal dispensation to dissolve his marriage and marry her ASAP...
But the real problem starts when Clement VII dies (assassination perhaps?) and the Cardinals have to choose a new Pope... England remains Catholic and has a strong voice in the College of Cardinals... Maybe Henry VIII can buy the election of an English Cardinal... Wolsey perhaps?

Or maybe William Warham who was Archbishop of Canterbury at the time

Don_Giorgio
November 7th, 2007, 04:00 PM
My thought exactly... I am expecting that the new Pope (Adrian V perhaps???) Would be more hostile towards HRE... and that might pushed the Emperor in joining protestantism...

Sgt Detritus
November 8th, 2007, 09:07 AM
My thought exactly... I am expecting that the new Pope (Adrian V perhaps???) Would be more hostile towards HRE... and that might pushed the Emperor in joining protestantism...

Which of course would lead to Pope Adrian excommunicating the Emperor

Maybe Charles' brother Ferdinand declares his continuing loyalty to the Catholic church leading to a war between the brothers

Don_Giorgio
November 8th, 2007, 10:30 AM
My mistake... Adrian VI for the new English Pope... Adrian V was Ottobono Fieschi in 13th century... but still we can see HRE dissolving in a religious civil war...

Grey Wolf
November 8th, 2007, 11:20 AM
Hadn't Charles just captured the French king in battle, thus removing fears of France from the equation and ensuring that the Pope towed the Imperial line? I don't think Clement felt he had many options at the time, so basically it would need for France to have been more successful against the Empire for a different scenario to be at play in Rome's considerations.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Sgt Detritus
November 8th, 2007, 11:43 AM
Hadn't Charles just captured the French king in battle, thus removing fears of France from the equation and ensuring that the Pope towed the Imperial line? I don't think Clement felt he had many options at the time, so basically it would need for France to have been more successful against the Empire for a different scenario to be at play in Rome's considerations.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Francis was captured at the Battle of Pavia (1525) and was released as a result of the Treaty of Madrid (1526)

What we could do is to delay having Henry meet Anne for a couple of years so Francis is back in France able to breath down Clement's neck

Don_Giorgio
November 8th, 2007, 02:52 PM
What about Scotland??? Maybe a Quadruple Alliance England/Scotland/France/Papal States against HRE/Spain...
Could this work?

Don_Giorgio
November 9th, 2007, 07:19 AM
Besides Clement VII could have put HRE under interdict and cause turmoil in the electoral college... Firm Catholic Lords would have denounced Charles V and siding with Pope while pro-Protestant Lords would have sided with Charles V... and thus cause a civil war in HRE ending in a split... Original HRE with Charles V as Emperor (converted to Protestantism of course) and another Catholic HRE with a new Catholic Emperor...