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pompejus
November 4th, 2007, 01:16 PM
I recently got a vague idea for a timeline, maybe I am willing to expand on this idea when I finished my New Netherlands timeline (which i am still planning on doing). I would to see some comments from other people about this idea.

The idea is that during the Dutch revolt Maurice of (Orange-)Nassau creates an alliance with the French king. This happens around 1600, OTL a 12 year truce was made between the Netherlands and Spain, which was going backrupt (at least i think it was) . The idea is that Maurice and the king of France decide to split the Spanish southern Netherlands, France gains Artois, Hainaut, Namur, Luxembourg and the Franche-Comte, while the Netherlands gains Flanders, Brabant and Limbourg (basicly the language borders). Both manage to get the Spanish out, who recognise Dutch independence.

Meanwhile next to the Netherlands another war occurs, the thirty year war (which will probably not take thirty years). The Netherlands, who also wishes to become independant from the HRE, becomes involved in this war. They invade bordering principalities, officialy to help the protestants living there. The war basicly ends in the disolution of the HRE and the Netherlands creates a couple of vasal countries at its western border (the county of east Frisia, Munster, Lingen, Liege, Bentheim, Julich-Mark-Cleve-Berg*).

When the Netherlands has secured its eastern border, there will be a struggle for power between the house of Orange and the rich Dutch merchants. This ends in a civil war. With the support of France (and maybe England) the house of Orange prevails and they become kings of the Netherlands.

Because the POD is before the founding of most Dutch colonies I am thinking to give them some they originally didn't got. I am not sure which ones, but I was thinking about Dutch Brasil, Taiwan, Jamaica, Southern India and a lot less of Indonesia (maybe only the Maluku Islands).

* to make it easier, i'll butterfly a son for the last ruler of Julich-Mark-Cleve-Berg so there won't be a war of succession.



So any remarks about this?

carlton_bach
November 4th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Other than that it is a way cool idea, no. I'm not sure the Estates-General are in any way set up to continue a policy this coherent, but as the old song says - love will find a way.

Faeelin
November 4th, 2007, 02:45 PM
Why do the Dutch need to gain independence from the HRE?

Neat idea, although I'm a bit unhappy that the Republic has been destroyed.

pompejus
November 4th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Why do the Dutch need to gain independence from the HRE?


Because the HRE is ruled by a Catholic Habsburg dynasty, just like Spain.

carlton_bach
November 4th, 2007, 04:16 PM
Why do the Dutch need to gain independence from the HRE?


Probably something to do with the Absolutist conception of sovereignty. This is before the Westphalian peace, so the HRE is still widely believed to mean something.

Parma
November 4th, 2007, 05:20 PM
Interesting idea!

The 12 year truce made in1609 by Van Oldenbarneveld, he was the leading figure of the Estates of the now defacto indepentend 7 provinces. This truce was made without the support of Maurice of Orange-Nassau and the Calvinist war faction.
Spain was bankrupt but the 7 Provinces almost as well.
In 1632 there was a plan to split the Spanish Netherlands like you propose, but never materialise.
During the 12 year truce the 7 Provinces almost become in a state of civil war between the Remonstrant (Van Oldenbarneveld) party, most upperclass people and the Contra- Remonstrant party the majority of crafts man, and middle class people. Maurits intervened with a kind of coup which cuased the head of Van Oldenbarneveld and the imprisonment of Hugo de Groot, and of course a lot of power for him.
The French were initially reluctant to start foregn wars especialy with Spain or religion involved, they just had a devastating religious war settled. French action in the 30years war started at the end of this conflict.
The Dutch did have some trading post/colonies :
1600 Xingu River (Amazone Brazil)
1616 Ginipapa River (Amazone Brazil)
1621 New Amsterdam(New York)
1624 Taiwan, Fort Zeelandia is build and relative seriuos and sucsesful conversion of the local population to Protestantism
1630 a large scale invasion of Pernambuco, fleet of 67 ships, 1170 guns and 7000 men,
1629 Tobago colony with 200 colonist.
For more Dutch/Portugese colonial info try:
http://www.colonialvoyage.com (http://www.colonialvoyage.com/)

pompejus
November 5th, 2007, 09:02 AM
Neat idea, although I'm a bit unhappy that the Republic has been destroyed.

In the New Amsterdam timeline I am planning for the Netherlands to stay a republic, so to make this idea differ from it i'll make it a kingdom.

Parma
November 8th, 2007, 10:47 PM
The Netherlands after 1648 and even before, was a republic untill it was concured by a French revolutionairy army.
It was a republic in the end ruled by oliargs. The stad holders had some kind of royal stature but were always elected by the State councel of a Province, or not.
The whole republic was more a confederation, something like the EU now.
Napoleon made one of his brothers king and when Napoleon had to leave the world stage some persons asked if a decender of the last stadholder was interested in the job of King of the Netheterlands. They introduced the institute of monarchy as a stabilisating factor. In the past a few times the republic almost went down due to civilwar.