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Mars
November 2nd, 2007, 03:20 AM
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m189/Javierfv1212/Eagleandthedragon.gif



I've always thought of what it would be like to see a great war between the Chinese and Roman empires. I drew up this map today, when some ideas about the POD's came to me.

Basically there are 2 major POD's. One is Hadrianople, with the Goths being defeated by Valens. Without goths attacking Italy, Stilicho is able to turn his army to the rhine when it freezes in 406, and deals a catastrophic defeat to the Vandal/Suevi/Alan force crossing the river. The Huns cause their disturbance, but the Romans are able to fight them off successfully, since they still hold all their provinces in this TL. The Roman empire lives on and eventually conquers the aztecs and establishes colonies in america.

Then we have Ming China, between 1405 and 1443, Chinese sailor and explorer Zheng He went on several naval expeditions, some say even to the Americas. In OTL, China isolated itself after these naval adventures, destroying many of their ships and naval charts. In this TL, driven by trade with the Roman empire and news of riches in the americas, Zheng He is sent on a mission there. His massive fleet reaches the incan empire and takes them over.

The stage is now set for a massive conflict of 2 great world superpowers for the riches of the americas.


Thoughts? Comments? ideas? I don't know where im going with this really, just thought id share it. :)

Flocculencio
November 2nd, 2007, 04:09 AM
You get bonus points for actually including something in India but it's a mystery why Vijayanagar, with access to South Indian maritime culture hasn't spread overseas when the much less maritime Chinese and Romans have done so.

037771
November 2nd, 2007, 06:08 PM
Why is Britannia independent? And why isnt Persia conquered by the Romans? More history behind map please, unless theres a TL i have missed.

Mars
November 2nd, 2007, 09:44 PM
I wanted to create a varied number of nations, not just Rome and China. Britannia breaks off from the empire during the barbarian invasions and later conquers the british isles, so you have a sort of half celtic half roman civ there that could be quite interesting. The same happens in Frankia, where the romans capture that area and romanize it, but later it separates from rome, and there is sort of a cultural mix between germanic and roman cultures.

Persia falls to Rome, but later the mongols take persia from them and now the turks have replaced them.

Advernt
November 3rd, 2007, 10:35 AM
How did the Romans last that long anyway? Would'nt the structure come crashing down during a civil war , in say the 800s? How did both portions of the Roman Empire restaged a Byzantine like revivial? There should have been many moments during the next thousand years where the Roman Empire was on the edge of collapse.

What about technological progress? How advanced are the Romans now anyway?

Atreus
November 3rd, 2007, 12:32 PM
How did the Romans last that long anyway? Would'nt the structure come crashing down during a civil war , in say the 800s? How did both portions of the Roman Empire restaged a Byzantine like revivial? There should have been many moments during the next thousand years where the Roman Empire was on the edge of collapse.

One of the things which distinguished the early and middle Romans was their ability to bounce back from any setback. Adrianople was the end of that, though. It had the morale aspects of Verdun or Battan, and the physical loss of an emperor and several thousand soldiers. If Adrianople is not a crushing setback, the Romans are in a stronger position overall. If they lose a battle on the frontier, they recover, adn destroy the barbarians.

I am also interested in the tech.

Why are the only colonial powers uber-sweden, Rome, and CHina? The British have all the natural advantages to being a maritime power as in OTL, in fact, a strong navy would be almost necessary. The Indians could possibly settle colonies. And why is there nothing marked on West Africa? I would expect some of the OTL kingdoms to rise. Finally, what is the religious situation?

For the record, this could be interesting. Perhaps a timeline.

Hendryk
November 3rd, 2007, 03:42 PM
In this TL, driven by trade with the Roman empire and news of riches in the americas, Zheng He is sent on a mission there. His massive fleet reaches the incan empire and takes them over.
So the second POD is actually a butterfly of the first one.

You get bonus points for actually including something in India but it's a mystery why Vijayanagar, with access to South Indian maritime culture hasn't spread overseas when the much less maritime Chinese and Romans have done so.
Indeed. It would be interesting to see the South Indians develop an overseas empire of their own.

Why is Britannia independent?
I'd be tempted to answer, Because in any ATL regardless of the POD, Britain always somehow becomes independent of whichever power rules mainland Europe ;) It's not factually true, but you know what I mean. Call it Orwell's Law, since even in the ultimate dystopia that is 1984, Britain is still independent from mainland Europe.

Atreus
November 3rd, 2007, 03:55 PM
I'd be tempted to answer, Because in any ATL regardless of the POD, Britain always somehow becomes independent of whichever power rules mainland Europe ;) It's not factually true, but you know what I mean. Call it Orwell's Law, since even in the ultimate dystopia that is 1984, Britain is still independent from mainland Europe.

Ah, but Orwell had a reason. The US absorbed Latin America and the British Empire, Russia absorbed europe. He states that there is no real reason that Eurasia could not conquer Britain, or that Oceania could not make it's border the rhine or even the Oder. But that would upset the balance of power, and cause difficulties for all empires. And what if there is just one world government?

Mars
November 4th, 2007, 01:14 AM
You get bonus points for actually including something in India but it's a mystery why Vijayanagar, with access to South Indian maritime culture hasn't spread overseas when the much less maritime Chinese and Romans have done so.I didn't really think of making India a major power, since i was mainly thinking of making a Rome vs China scenario, but it could get interesting. What areas do you think a powerful Indian empire could colonize, maybe Malaysia?

I'd be tempted to answer, Because in any ATL regardless of the POD, Britain always somehow becomes independent of whichever power rules mainland Europe ;) It's not factually true, but you know what I mean. Call it Orwell's Law, since even in the ultimate dystopia that is 1984, Britain is still independent from mainland Europe.Well, maybe because Britain is at an interesting place in the world stage. Not quite in Europe, but still somehow part of it. Here they have a mix of Roman and Celtic culture, which i thought could be very interesting. Making them a colonizing power along with India sounds good too. When i made this map i was kinda concentrating on China and Rome, but yeah, fleshing out other powers makes it seem much more realistic.

The technology is on the verge of a industrial revolution, something like late 17th century. So its over 100 years ahead of OTL, which i think is a reasonable proposition. The steam engine will probably be discovered soon.

About religion. Valens was an Arian Christian, and he dealt with alot of religious problems in the empire in his time. After the defeat of the visigoths, Valens will try to reconcile the various religions of his state. Only a few years ago, Julian the apostate had tried to revive the pagan religion.
Valens tries to meld Christianity and the old pagan ways into one religion, he gathers together several Christian and Pagan leaders in the council of Philippopolis to reach a compromise, at first they are reluctant, but Valens forces the issue, and what emerges is a new religion, half roman pagan half christian. In this new religion, the Christian god is equated with Jupiter, jesus with Apollo, and Satan with hades. Its a religion that alot of Romans can get behind and it spreads quickly as Valens continues his victories against the goths. Eventually, this religion will become the major religion in the empire.

MerryPrankster
November 4th, 2007, 01:55 AM
The Arians tended to be a fanatical lot--I doubt he'd try to merge paganism and Christianity. They and the orthodox would gleefully persecute each other, depending on who was in power.

And I believe Julian the Apostate was after Valens, not before.

Philip
November 4th, 2007, 02:21 AM
What areas do you think a powerful Indian empire could colonize, maybe Malaysia?

Malaysia, Indonesia, Arabia, East Africa. Anywhere they could sail, and they have a wonderful maritime tradition.


About religion.


This part seems ASB.


Valens tries to meld Christianity and the old pagan ways into one religion, he gathers together several Christian and Pagan leaders in the council of Philippopolis to reach a compromise, at first they are reluctant, but Valens forces the issue, and what emerges is a new religion, half roman pagan half christian.

I just can't buy this. This is the era of the Great Cappadocians. Basil and the two Gregorys are among the best philosophers Christianity ever produced. If, when they met at Constantinople just after Valens reign OTL were unwilling to tolerate Arianism, I fail to see how you are going to get them to go along with this hybrid. Read some of the writings of Christians from that era -- they had no tolerance for what they perceived as deviations from the Apostolic teachings.


In this new religion, the Christian god is equated with Jupiter, jesus with Apollo, and Satan with hades.This seems to expose a lack of understanding of either Christian doctrine of the time, or Classical paganism. Perhaps both.

Malta
November 4th, 2007, 02:39 AM
Looks interesting. Whats the current/latest time-date for events?

Mars
November 4th, 2007, 03:34 AM
I admit i do not know much about the state of roman religion at this time. However i know that for the Romans, Syncretism was not a new thing, they did identify greek gods with their own, as well as germanic and celtic ones. Perhaps the Jupiter = Christian God thing might be overdoing it. However, accepting the old pagan gods into the Christian religion, as saints or angels maybe, might be a way to gain converts easier.

The Federation
November 4th, 2007, 04:11 AM
Why are the only colonial powers uber-sweden, Rome, and CHina? The British have all the natural advantages to being a maritime power as in OTL, in fact, a strong navy would be almost necessary. The Indians could possibly settle colonies. And why is there nothing marked on West Africa? I would expect some of the OTL kingdoms to rise. Finally, what is the religious situation?

Why not Indonesia, Malaysia, or coastal Burma, regions that are culturally very Indian already?

Philip
November 4th, 2007, 01:19 PM
However i know that for the Romans, Syncretism was not a new thing, they did identify greek gods with their own, as well as germanic and celtic ones.

Syncretism between various pagan systems is relatively easy. Mixing in Christianity is much more difficult.

Perhaps the Jupiter = Christian God thing might be overdoing it. However, accepting the old pagan gods into the Christian religion, as saints or angels maybe,

They were already incorporated as demonic spirits

might be a way to gain converts easier.

Gaining converts wasn't a problem. In fact, many Christians were concerned that there were too many converts too quickly.

Faeelin
November 4th, 2007, 02:48 PM
You get bonus points for actually including something in India but it's a mystery why Vijayanagar, with access to South Indian maritime culture hasn't spread overseas when the much less maritime Chinese and Romans have done so.

Actually, Vijayanagar went into decline during the late medieval era, didn't it? Indian (Hindu) merchants become much less common even before the Portuguese show up, right?

It might simply be that the Indian states are there, but they haven't established colonies for the same reasons as OTL.

strangeland
November 4th, 2007, 08:53 PM
Great map, but Hadrianople is WAY too late of a POD for this world to be feasible. I'm thinking that the POD would have to occur in the mid-2nd century at the latest for the empire to last into the modern age, and would probably consist of a major invention or a plague or natural disaster that's avoided rather than a battle won or lost.

Mars
November 4th, 2007, 10:54 PM
I've actually been thinking of having a POD a little more into the past, maybe Trajan conquers persia. With persia and the middle east in roman control, they can definetly stop the barbarians and do not have to worry about being attacked by sassanids all the time like they did in OTL. Also it will give me more room to change the religious situation to what i want (a kind of christian , pagan hybrid) Since it seems its too late to stop christianity from completely taking over in by the 5th century. It also means Rome will meet the Kushans, and maybe even Han china before it splinters. Might be more interesting.

Mars
November 13th, 2007, 11:23 PM
Ok i've been toying with the idea a little and i've redone the map. POD is Trajan's conquest of Persia.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m189/Javierfv1212/1500show.png

As you can see india is one unified state, those are the turks - mainly orghuz turks who founded the seljuk and ottoman empires in OTL. Here they continued raiding Rome, but instead settled in india and eventually conquered it all, creating the Turkish empire of india, which is another Major power along with Rome and China. Other Turkish and Mongol Khanates are still controlling central asia for now. The caliphate hasn't been able to breach Roman defenses and does not get as big as in OTL, but instead begins to conquer east africa, as well as putting trading ports in south africa and trading with the other european powers - basically breaking the monopoly on trade from the east which Rome has on them, and getting filthy rich in the process. The colonization race in the new world is a bit more heated now with Britons and Franks going at it as well. The hungarian plain is controlled by the gothic kingdom, which is now paradoxically a staunch ally of rome, as Rome has used them as a buffer state for years against avars, alans and bulgar tribes. The crimea and caucasus are controlled by bulgars. The light blue state in OTL Ukraine is the Magyars. Purple is Varangia, OTL Russia.
The major powers though are still Rome and China, which was my original thought, and they are going to duke it out for awhile in the Americas. This Tl's version of the world wars will mainly be fought in the Americas and in central asia, between of course China and Rome.

Let me know what you guys think.
Also, i don't know what the Romans would call the turks, probably just Turci and Turkish india, India Turcia? I don't think the Romans ever met the turks in OTL so they might end up calling them huns or scythians too.

le.Singe
November 13th, 2007, 11:46 PM
I'm really liking where you're going with this... One question: is "Germania Franca" really capable of colonizing South America at this point? Remember: to colonize the New World, you're going to need a decent navy and some sort of reason to go on adventures. In a Roman-dominated world, Germanic tribes are probably going to stick with the "protecting-the-frontier-so-the-Romans-don't-steamroll-us" strategy, which would involve concentrated efforts on land forces and a less-than-urgent desire to play Safari Jack. The last thing they want on their plate is more conflict. Other than that, superb job! :D

EDIT: Same goes for the Goths in Africa (even more so, actually, as they are even more threatened by Rome and have even less of a coast...). However, one group I can see in a colonial setting is the Saxons... they have no border with Rome and are situated on a peninsula... hmmm...

Mars
November 14th, 2007, 12:15 AM
I see your point there, the saxons do seem to be in a better position to start a maritime empire, i'll see where i can go with that, thanks for the input.
About the colonies in africa , they are Arabic not gothic, maybe i should change the color a bit to a more darker green.

Flocculencio
November 14th, 2007, 01:08 AM
Indian Turks.

OK, you just lost all your Vijayanagar points.

Locke
November 14th, 2007, 01:14 AM
Indian Turks.

OK, you just lost all your Vijayanagar points.

I knew that was coming.:D

Mars
November 14th, 2007, 01:14 AM
LOL!:D

I know i know, but the Turks where a powerful force, they created the Seljuk empire, and later the Ottoman empire. Think of this as a early form of the Mughal empire and a bit more powerful. The turks have to go somewhere, and Rome sure as heck won't just let them through, so conquering the feuding states in india is a easier alternative and much more realistic than just having the Turks stay in the steppes, they sure as hell didn't do that in OTL.
Maybe i should add a rump vijayanagar tributary to the Turks. How powerful was Vijayanagar at this time anyways? Could they have survived a mass onslaught of nomadic turkish horsemen?

Mars
November 16th, 2007, 12:28 AM
So i've started writing what i hope will be a timeline that reaches all the way into the colonization era and the great sino-roman wars (which is what i will probably devote the most time to). I hope to make it as realistic as possible, this is no Rome-wank, and Rome will hold a bit more than in OTL in europe, a lot more in the americas but thats to be expected, but nothing like a massive world empire like in Romanitas or Silverbergs Roma Eterna.

Anyways, here's what i have so far, i hope someone reads it:rolleyes:

117 - Trajan captures Ctesiphon and Susa. He places Parthamaspates as a puppet ruler in Parthia and turns west to deal with revolts in by the Jews in mesopotamia. He crushes the revolts with great cruelty, crucifying thousands and returns to Parthia where Parthamaspates has been deposed. He sends the general Lusius Quietus in judea to continue pacifying the province.

117-118 - Heading back to the east, Trajan negotiates with a ambassador from the Kushans, the powerful neighbor of Parthia to the east. Trajan agrees to work together to split the Parthian lands. Trajan quickly recaptures Susa, and lays siege to Istakhr, creating the new Roman province of Persia. Negotiations with the revolting Parthian satrapy of Gedrosia turn out well, and the Gedrosian satrap agrees to send troops to help Trajan in his conquest of Media and Parthia, while Remaining a free ally of Rome. Trajan then takes parthia and media, with Hecatompylos being the last major city to fall to his forces. He establishes Media and Parthia as Roman provinces. He spends the year pacifying his new conquests, visiting all of the major cities and building his power base with the local nobles. Trajan gives his veterans of the parthian and dacian wars some of the best lands in Mesopotamia and Persia, taken from rebellious parthian nobles, who now hang crucified along the persian royal road. He also appropriates alot of that land for himself which he sells to Roman aristocrats.

119 - 123 Trajan enters Rome and receives a great triumph. He spends the next 2 years busy with building projects. In Rome he builds a massive triumphal arch, to celebrate his victory in persia. In his new eastern provinces he builds several Roman colonies and Roman style forums and baths in Susa, ,Ctesiphon and Seleucia. His most intensive project is the ancient city of Babylon, which has been desolate for years after the fall of Alexanders empire. He settles many Romans in the area, and begins rebuilding the city, complete with a Roman style forum, a large garden complex and a monument to himself and Alexander, conquerors of the east. Trajan also constructs a large Roman road network in Mesopotamia and Persia, the Via Trajana Asiatica.


124 - Trajan dies suddenly while inspecting a new bath complex in Babylon. Lusius Quietus, having been adopted by Trajan after his campaing against the revolting jews, becomes Emperor. (In OTL, Hadrian is adopted by Trajan, however its all very fishy, as Hadrian claimed Trajan adopted him in his deathbed and then he rid himself of Quietus as he called him back from Judea. Its quite possible that Quietus - being one of the most popular generals, if not the most popular one, would have been chosen by Trajan instead)


126 - Lucius Quietus invades northern Brittania, tired of the constant complaints by Romano British nobles of their villas being burnt down in raids and towns being attacked, he marches against the powerful coalition centered on the Briganti tribe and crushes them in the battle of the Ouse river. He spends 127 building secure limes against the Caledonian tribes.

128 - Quietus signs several peace and trade deals with the Kushan king Kanishka I, and agree to work together to fight the steppe tribes north of Persia.

129 - Revolt in Parthia, Quietus crushes it and sells thousands of Parthians into slavery.

130 - 134 - Quietus spends this time campaigning in Brittania against the caledonians and other revolting celtic tribes in the new province of Brigantia. However new comes that a large jewish revolt, led by Bar Kochba in judea has destroyed a legion and he and his star general Sextus Julius Severus head to crush the revolt.

134 - 136 - The war against judea is bloody and costly, with heavy casualties for the Romans and thousands of jews killed and hundreds of villages and towns razed. Afterwards the majority of the jewish population was either sold into slavery, or exiled to different corners of the empire as was customary with rebellious populations. Quietus, exhausted by constant fighting manages to make it to brittania to continue his conquest of caledonia, but dies while crossing the channel, his favored general, Sextus Julius Severus becomes Emperor.

137 - 144 - The Caledonian war, Sextus Julius Severus shows his skill as a military commander in his great management of the war against the Caledoni. Despite the rough highland terrain of Scotland and a few minor setbacks at the beginning of his campaign, mainly ambushes by the ever resourceful celtic tribes, Severus and his legions crush all opposition in caledonia and make it a Roman province. He founds a new city in caledonia, Caledonia Augusta and even marries a daughter of a leading caledonian noble to seal the peace with whats left of the Caledonian tribes after the war.

145 - 147 - Severus spends most of this time touring the empire, mainly beefing up border defenses and commissioning new public buildings.

147 - A dispute over trade rights between a Roman governor in Persia and the Kushans escalates to war, and a Kushan army crushes 2 Roman legions and lays siege to Persepolis Trajana. Severus once again heads to war, this time with one of the most powerful empires of the world, a match for Roma herself.

Mars
November 16th, 2007, 02:11 AM
map

147 ce - 900 AUC

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m189/Javierfv1212/CopyofOrbusTerrarumCE147-AUC900.png

Atom
November 16th, 2007, 02:33 AM
Tea dipping!

What are those random blobs in Mexico? If things follow OTl in the America that should be mostly Toltec or at least Toltec influenced. Also the southern Maya should be more splotchy as the collapse is starting right about now. And the Andes should be divided between Wari and Tiwanaco.

Mars
November 16th, 2007, 02:45 AM
Yes they are Maya, toltec, tarascan, mixtec, zapotec, totonac, and teotihuacan.

The kingdom in the andes is Moche, i think the huari and Tiwanaku come later, around 500 AD. i could be dreadfully wrong though.

Nicomacheus
November 16th, 2007, 02:58 AM
I'm interested to see how the conquest of the Americas goes. In OTL it was more of close thing than it sometimes gets credit for (Cortes' conquest of the Aztecs was something of a coup, even if he did have guns, germs, and steel on his side.) Will your Romans, if they invade sooner, be able to find a less developed America and so easier pickings? Will they have the same technological advantages (gunpowder)?

Also, why would Rome start heading West? Do they have the same desire for the goods of the east OTL Europe did? If so, why not just conquer eastwards? Or colonize more of East Africa, rebuild the canal from the Nile to the Red Sea and trade via the Indian Ocean? Or just colonize Africa itself--if they get to ocean voyaging presumably they'd do that firs, as the Portuguese did IOTL.

I'm curious to see how things play out: there are certainly good answers hinted at in your outline. Arabia would block Roman expansion via the Indian Ocean. The Turks were probably kind of thorny.

Atom
November 16th, 2007, 03:01 AM
Yes they are Maya, toltec, tarascan, mixtec, zapotec, totonac, and teotihuacan.

The kingdom in the andes is Moche, i think the huari and Tiwanaku come later, around 500 AD. i could be dreadfully wrong though.

[smacks head] Ah crap! I messed up on the whole AUC and AD thing. So sorry man. And the toltecs didn't arrive before about 900 A.D. Actually. So sorry!

Mars
November 17th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Alright, time for some Kushan/Rome catfights.

147-151 - First Romano-Kushan war. Severus brings a total of around 14 legions, and meets the Kushan army in the province of Mesopotamia. The Kushan army, tired from campaigning against the Roman garrisons and low on supplies is forced to retreat after a small skirmish. Severus takes back most of Persia, but the Kushans still hold Parthia, and Severus meets them at the Battle of Hecatompylos. The battle lasted 2 days, and it was a long and drawn out struggle. Eventually, the Romans prevailed through their use of superior Persian and Parthian cavarly auxiliaries, the Kushan force is destroyed and sold into slavery.This battle will lead to greater emphasis of cavalry for the Roman army in the future. Severus then decides to invade the Kingdom of Kushan, he waits for reinforcements and recruits several nomadic auxiliaries from the north, then heads into the Kushan empire, capturing Margiana. He pushes into Bactria, but begins to meet stiffer resistance from raids, ambushes and a scorched earth policy by the Kushans. The rough terrain and extended supply lines weaken the army. Severus fights and defeats a small Kushan army near the city of Bactra and lays siege to the city, but his army is so weakened he begins a long and bloody fighting retreat back to Persia. The Roman force emerges from the Kushan empire battered and broken, having lost about 2/3rds of their original manpower to disease, hunger and battle. Rome and Kushan sign a peace agreement in 151 ending the conflict and outlining rules for Kushan-Roman trade.


151-154 - Severus spends the rest of his reign in Rome, with the empire in relative peace despite some troubles with germans and mauretanians which are handled by legates, dying in 154. He adopts army commander Decimus Artorius Falco, commander of the legions in Persia, as emperor.

154 - 160 - Artorius sees trouble in the Danube and Germanic frontiers and puts down several revolts and germanic raiders there, he personally surveys the limes and the legions, and raises 3 new legions for the defense of the frontier against the Germans. Breakouts of a plague in the east will slowly spread west, the Romans will call this plague the Kushan plague (known as the Antonine plague in OTL).

162 - 167 - Several germanic tribes invade Germania superior and Pannonia. Vandals and Sarmatians invade Dacia. The Roman army under Artorius quickly responds and defeats most of the invaders in Germania superior and Pannonia.

168-169 - Artorius fights in Dacia against Sarmatians and Vandals he then moves south to crush the raiders that have moved south to the Balkans and Thrace.

170 - 174 A large coalition led by the Marcomanni entered Noricum and defeated a Roman force there, they then headed into Italy but where defeated by a large force under Furius Victorinus using some of the new legions raised by Artorius. Furius then takes his army north and actually invades the territory of the Marcomanni and later the Quadi, pillaging, burning and taking slaves. The Quadi and the Marcomanni tribes become tributaries of Rome and will never recover from this ordeal. Meanwhile, Artorius crushes the Sarmatian lazyges and joins Furius in Germania and continue campaigning against the allies of the Marcomanni and Quadi.

175-180- Artorius begins a massive building project in the German frontiers, he builds more forts and enlarges others, he creates 4 more legions for a total of 20 legions stationed along the Danube and the Rhine and increases the size and scope of the defensive walls and towers, be builds more limes behind the old ones for greater defense in depth. He also stations several new units called Alae limitanei - elite all cavalry forces used for raids, and quick responses against germanic attacks.

181 - Artorius dies, Furius Victorinus becomes emperor.

183 - Revolt in Dacia is crushed.

183-209 - Relative peace in the empire, though some german tribes continue to trouble the frontier like before, and a small caledonian revolt in brittania breaks out, the pax romana is mainly upheld well at this time. Furius Victorinus dies in 206.

Cultural notes -----2nd century
By 200 eastern cults from Kushan and Persia have begun to gain popularity throughout the empire, this includes Zoroastrianism, Persian deities, and some Kushan indian deities, including a small following of the Buddha.

Marcus Aurelius becomes the most important stoic philosopher of the era, his three major works - Meditations, Emotions, and Freedom will cement stoic Roman though for years to come. He also founded a philosophical school in Rome, which eventually grows to be one of the greatest academies in the empire, next to the akademia founded by Plato.

Persian culture spreads in Rome, Persian style gardens begin appearing in several major cities including Antioch and Alexandria. Persian rugs and textilesalso become very popular, even used to adorn the homes of senators and upperclassmen in Rome.

With the capture of Persia, trade routes from the east become even more important and the empire becomes richer than ever, trading more with India and even China.

209 - 212 - Virius Lupus who had been adopted by Furius becomes emperor. Virius was a leader of the legions in the east and he detested the Kushans. He was also hungry for glory and began preparing for a massive invasion of the Kushan empire. However he was impatient, and his invasion was a disaster from the start. He was defeated by the Kushan king Vasudeva I in Bactria, losing over 3 legions and retreating back to persia in shame.

213 - 220 - Virius Lupus never gave up his dream of defeating the Kushans, though at first he want back to Rome and dabbled in law and senatorial politics, he quickly went back east and began raising new legions. Rome began to worry about their emperor and his eastern adventures, but Virius trudged on. He personally oversaw the training of the new eastern legions and new persian style heavy cavalry wings for his army, he also brought 2 legions from the European limes to the east for this campaign.

220-225 - Virius Lupus invades the Kushan empire, he quickly makes headway into Margiana and Bactria, defeating 2 Kushan armies, capturing Bactra and then Maracanda. He makes use of extensive light cavalry formations adopted from the Parthians and heavy eastern style Cataphracts, heavily armored horsemen. Virius lays siege to Begram, which holds for over a year and eventually falls in 224. In 225, Vasudeva I the Kushan king dies and internal disputes for succession coupled with the Roman invasion mean the Kushans cannot hold back the Roman armies.

226-227 - Virius crosses the Caucasus Indicus (Hindu Kush) and lays siege to Taxila, one of the last major Kushan urban centers. However revolts break out in his newly captured provinces and he is forced to abandon Taxila and retraces his steps back across the Caucasus indicus. He spends the next year pacifying and solidifying his power base in the provinces of Bactria, Margiana, Arachosia, and Sogdiana, mainly installing Roman and indo-greeks into power.

228 - 230 - Virius, seeing himself as the new Alexander, plans to conquer india, he crosses the Hindu Kush again with dreams of glory, his dreams are crushed however, by horrible weather and terrain during the crossing of the mountain ranges, and a newly determined Kushan force who faces him in a narrow mountain pass. The Romans are unable to dislodge the Kushan blocking force, and while looking for a way to flank them continue to be raided by small Kushan forces, more knowledgeable of the terrain than them. Eventually, the Romans begin a retreat, but they find themselves surrounded, and thousands die, including Virius.

231-232 Maximinus Thrax (The Thracian), a successful general and leader in the invasion of the Kushan empire is adopted by Virius before his death. However, Lucius Tiberius Claudius Pompeianus a leading Roman consul, has already forged adoption papers, powerful connections with senators in Rome and has declared himself emperor. Most of the senators support him, especially since Maximinus is of germanic stock. Maximinus makes peace with the Kushans, recruits new legions and local auxiliaries, including some Indian elephants and marches west. Pompeianus calls on legions from over the empire, and marches against Maximinus.

Atreus
November 17th, 2007, 09:57 PM
On the map, the germanic states are either going to unify or be absorbed by the romans if they even think about adventures in the new world. Rome has no colonies, but Germania Francia does?

And I agree, Vijayanagar is much better then Turkish India.

Iñaki
November 17th, 2007, 10:59 PM
It seems an interesting TL, also far more plaussible that the first attempt(based in Valens not dies in Adrianople).

And nice maps;)

Originally posted by MerryPrankster
And I believe Julian the Apostate was after Valens, not before.


Julian died in 363 during his expedition against Persia, Valens died in 378.

Mars
November 18th, 2007, 01:19 AM
And I agree, Vijayanagar is much better then Turkish India.

Alright alright, by popular acclaim, Vijayanagar will fight off the Turks and remain an independent kingdom. :p

It seems an interesting TL, also far more plaussible that the first attempt(based in Valens not dies in Adrianople).

Thanks :), i figured that by the time of Adrianople its just too late to save the empire in anything but a rump state.

Mars
November 20th, 2007, 02:43 AM
next installment

232-235 - The civil war was short and decisive. Maximinus marched through Asia minor securing his power over that area as Pompeianus gathered his army in macedonia. They met at the battle of Philippopolis in 233, where Maximinus won a great victory, his army from the east being superior in cavalry and having many hardened veterans from the Kushan war. Pompeianus retreated back into Italy and began raising another army, but was killed by his own commanders who then welcomed Maximinus as Emperor. Maximinus was not very popular with the senate, he wanted to make sure that instability and war over succession did not happen again to his chosen successor, as it had happened to him. He created the concilium legatus legionis, council of the legion legates. The council would help the emperor choose a successor making sure that man was not only capable and skilled but also protecting him from usurpers in the senate and in the army. By doing this he also cemented the law of adoption as the main way to chose the next emperor, though technically, an Emperors son could still become the next emperor, if he was the most effective and skilled leader in the army that is. If the emperor died without an heir, the concilium would meet and vote on one, the legates swore an oath to destroy any one who tried to take the throne by force.

236 - 250 - Goths, Vandals, and Alamanni raid the limes and Maximius leads several invasions of the territories defeating several germanic forces along the border, an army of goths is crushed in the battle of sarmizegetusa and dacia is secured once again.

251-257 - The last years of Maximinus reign are spend still on the rhine and danube frontiers, inspecting, building and rebuilding them until his last days, he dies while surveying a new defensive trench system along the rhine. His successor is a young and vibrant general named Gaius Cassius Sabinianus who has spent most of his career on the rhine fighting germans.

258-283 - The entire reign of Sabinianus is spent on fighting off Germans, especially the goths in dacia and the alamanni along the rhine, he is given the title Defensor Germanicus, for his defense of Rome against the barbarians. He further increases the size of the Limes, his reign sees the first stone walls being across key areas in the limes. He sets up an intricate system along the Limes of Carrier pigeons, which will help communication and response times to german raids. Sabinianus also signs trade and mutual defense treaties with the Gupta empire ruler Samudragupta. Gupta and Rome are on good terms as both shared a main enemy, the Kushans, who by 260 have been completely destroyed by the Gupta.

284-312 - Gaius Junius Silanus Torquatus becomes emperor through adoption on the death of Sabinianus. His reign starts off bad, with the total loss of Dacia to the goths. He spends the rest of his reign campaigning in Dacia and reconquering it, as well as fighting the Marcomanni who have decided to break from Rome and stop providing auxiliaries for the empire. The bloody war in Dacia will claim the lives of tens of thousands of Germans and Romans. One year after the end of the Dacian war, he dies in Rome. His adopted son Julius Avitus Alexianus becomes emperor.

Cultural Notes----3rd Century
* Plotinus begins the revival of Platonism which takes off in greece and asia minor, but is resisted by the western Stoic successors of Marcus Aurelius, especially the stoics in Rome and Carthage.
* Greco-Buddhism have been growing even since the capture of Bactria and the Roman Kushan wars. Greco-Buddhism will experience a schism in the late 3rd century with one school, the Bactrian school being closer to Mahayana buddhism today (that is, reaching nirvana through devotion to buddha and other bodhisattvas), and the more philosophical and meditation based Alexandrian school being closer to Theravada (Attaining Nirvana through the four noble truths).
* The increasing trade and contanct Gupta empire will bring even more Indian deities into the eastern part of the empire, and some even begin to develop cults in the west, such as the Chrisna and Shivae cults. The Gupta and the Indian golden age will influence the empire more into the 4th century.
* Manichaeism begins to become popular in Persia and in the eastern empire.
---------------------------


313 - 317 - Arabs had been raiding Persia and Mesopotamia since the year 300 and 2 legions had already been sent to the area. Alexianu wanted to end this threat once and for all and gathered an army to crush them. By 317, The Arab tribes of the Taglii (Taghleb), Bacwinai (Bakr bin Wael), and the Ablais (Abd Al-Qays) put up stiff resistance, but the Roman army eventually defeats them, thousands are enslaved and killed, and the Arab threat is contained.


320 - 324 Julius Avitus Alexianus decides to try what a Roman army has never completely accomplished, conquer Germania. He gathers forces from all over the empire, eventually he has 17 legions + auxiliaries, totalling over 100,000 men, one of the largest forces ever gathered by a Roman emperor. He takes over 4 years just preparing for the campaign, and making sure the limes are secure before he embarks on his conquest. Along with the Legions, he has nomadic horsemen from the steppes of Asia, eastern style heavy cavalry, several Germanic allies, including Marcomanni and Quadi auxiliaries, Berber horsemen and Arab auxiliaries.

325 - 334 - Alexianus crosses the Rhine into the territory of the Chatti, one of the largest germanic tribes next to Roman lands. The Chatti gathered their warriors and met Alexianus, but suffered a horrendous defeat at the battle of Salinae, several warlords of the Chatti offered their surrender, others fled with their warbands north and joined the Cherusci. On hearing about the vast Roman invasion, the Cherusci had begun forming a coalition to fight off the romans, the Hermunduri, Usipi and Chamavi among others join the coalition. Alexianus by this time had secured the alliances of the Tencteri and Usipetes on the lower rhine and began moving north into the lands of the Cherusci. Alexianus defeats the Cherusci coalition in the battle of the Adrana and most tribes of the coalition submit to him, except the gambrivi, who continue to resist. Alexianus spends 2 months sieging the main gambrivi fortified town of segodunum and slaughters all its inhabitans as an example. Alexianus then heads north, into Frisia and accepts the submission of most tribes there, except the Chauci. Allying with the Frisians and Sturii, he conquers the Chauci , stopping at the german town of Phabiranum for a few months to consolidate his forces and alliances. In 330 he marches again against the alliance of the Semnoni and the Langobardi. Using forces of his new allies, the danduti and the Boii, he conquers the Semnoni and the Langobardi. He barely has time to catch his breath when a Chatti revolt breaks out in 333. He marches west and his exhausted army manages to crush the revolt and almost completely wipe out the Chatti tribe. This effectively marked the end of the Germanic Wars, mopping up operations to secure the new provinces would continue well until 336.


337 - 342 All of Germania east of the Albis (Elbe) is in Roman hands. Hundreds of villages and towns have been razed and thousands of Germans are dead or had been shipped back to the empire as slaves. The Invasion has been very costly for the empire however, the cost of the supplies and loss of men takes a high toll, which is barely compensated by the slaves and the booty. Alexianus begins a building project in Germania, he begins founding Roman colonies and begins a project to "civilize" the Germans, introducing Roman republican government and bringing Roman and Greek teachers to teach latin to many Germans, on state expense. Alexianus believes that the Germans need to be civilized, for the good of the empire. Romanization had always been a slow and decentralized cultural progress, never before had an emperor forced Romanization on such a scale.

343 - Alexianus dies, in Colonia Alexiana, on Roman colony in on the western bank of the Elbe. Gaius Fulvius Nobilior a distinguished Roman general from the Germanic war becomes Emperor. On the death of Alexianus, the Semnoni tribe revolted and was quickly joined by tribes from across the elbe, Fulvius crushes this rebellion with great cruelty, crucifiying several thousand Semnoni along the western bank of the elbe river. On being questioned by a comrade why he had done such a cruel and bloody act, Fulvius responded with the famous quote "Cruelty is the only thing these people understand, it is my duty to teach them otherwise - to make them Roman".

344-349 - Fulvius continues attempts at Romanising the Germanic tribes, meeting with several Germanic chieftains and touring the new provinces.

350 - 351 - Hunnic attacks on Alans and Goths around the river don area drive them west into Roman Dacia. Joined by Dacian Goths, they take over the province and set up several separate Kingdoms. Saxons, angles and jutes have been raiding Brittania for several years now, forts begin to be built along the eastern Brittanian coast.

353 - Fulvius gathers his legions south of the Danube to retake Dacia. Eastern Nomadic Tribes begin attack Bactria and Sogdiana more and more aggressively, amongst them, the Hepthalites and Xionites are particularly powerful and raid as far as Persia.

Mars
November 20th, 2007, 02:49 AM
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m189/Javierfv1212/OrbusTerrarumCE354-AUC1107.png

World - CE 354 - AUC 1107
Used canvas texture this time. I think it looks better no?

Nicomacheus
November 20th, 2007, 02:57 AM
Are you going to provide a similar account for China?

Mars
November 20th, 2007, 03:03 AM
China's doing as in OTL right now that's why im not concentrating on it. Right now im still thinking my POD or butterfly divergence or w/e for China will be during the Ming dynasty, specifically during the Zheng He voyages. China will have heard of America by then from contact with Rome ( im still not sure when Rome will reach the new world, probably somewhere in the 1300s) and will spur Zheng he to send his fleet to the Americas and begin colonizing it. Increasing naval power, trade and riches from the west will help the Ming remain strong so as not to be taken over by the Machus. Im no Chinese history expert, though i'll definitely read up more on Chinese history (which i've been wanting to anyways, got that series from yao to mao from ttc) before i tackle the China side of this TL.

Nicomacheus
November 20th, 2007, 03:13 AM
1) What kind of internal improvements are at work to connect all those Eastern Provinces to the Mediterranean ones?

2) Will Roman naval technology be fueled by the attempt to join the two sides of the Empire by sea?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting idea about the Council of Legates: did you mean it to sound a lot like the College of Cardinals? I'm curious to see if the Empire remains the rather informal autocracy it was under Augustus or continues to alter Republican structures to ensure its stability and good governance?

Bavarian Raven
November 20th, 2007, 03:23 AM
interesting but i was still hoping their would be a "battle of teutonberg (sp) forest...

Mars
November 20th, 2007, 03:39 AM
interesting but i was still hoping their would be a "battle of teutonberg (sp) forest...

Hold your horses, Germans aren't out for the count just yet. :D


1) What kind of internal improvements are at work to connect all those Eastern Provinces to the Mediterranean ones?

I guess i really didn't think much about the new eastern provinces, but basically good old roman road building, the road networks were already fairly developed do to trade with the Kushans before.

2) Will Roman naval technology be fueled by the attempt to join the two sides of the Empire by sea?

Im sure it will, trade with india and china will also bring new developments in naval tech. After Rome stabilizes from the barb invasions things will start to take off technologically.

Mars
November 21st, 2007, 03:20 AM
Anyways we are getting close to the Arab invasions and i have a question regarding butterflies.

Would you guys think a surviving Rome would butterfly Muhammad away somehow? I mean muhammed was from a family of traders, such a powerful Rome might mean he could find business trading with Rome and not have time for his famous revelation. Not to mention the butterflies that would affect his family line before him. Maybe the arabs could have a different prophet, a different unifying religion a bit later on? I've been thinking about that too.

So what do you guys think? Muhammed or no Muhammed? I seriously need help here i have no idea what to choose. :confused:

Epimethius
November 21st, 2007, 03:38 AM
Anyways we are getting close to the Arab invasions and i have a question regarding butterflies.

Would you guys think a surviving Rome would butterfly Muhammad away somehow? I mean muhammed was from a family of traders, such a powerful Rome might mean he could find business trading with Rome and not have time for his famous revelation. Not to mention the butterflies that would affect his family line before him. Maybe the arabs could have a different prophet, a different unifying religion a bit later on? I've been thinking about that too.

So what do you guys think? Muhammed or no Muhammed? I seriously need help here i have no idea what to choose. :confused:

Correct me if im wrong, but you havent mentioned advent of Christianity in this TL and what sort of interaction or effect it had on the Roman Empire in this TL. However given the POD of the reign of Trajan, Christianity would almost certainly exist, and since interaction with Christianity and Judaism is what helped to create the religion that Muhammed there is a chance that Muhammed would still follow the same path. However given the fact that you sent Roman legions against the Arab tribes and effectively subjugated them, you have partially removed the chance that the Muslims will erupt and spread out over the mediterranen (Muhammed could still become the leader of an arab muslim rebellion which succeeds and follows as per OTL, or you could have a repeat of the Bar Kochba revolt except with arabs). The potential in other words still exists for Muhammed to exist, none of the factors as far as i can tell, have been seriously removed.

Mars
November 21st, 2007, 12:32 PM
Rome didn't subjugate the Arab tribes, it just kept them in check, they still haven' conquered Arabia (Basically the same thing that rome did in TTL, the sassanids did in OTL under Shapur II, as the Arabs were raiding into persia.) As for Christianity, without Constantine, it has Remained a minority cult. But i can see that without Christianity as a major religion next to them and plus any other Roman butterflies, it would be hard to say things would go the same way as in OTL for Muhammad, however im stil thinking of uniting the Arab tribes into one state more or less, so i'll probably still need a strong leader. Eve if i choose Muhammad, islam will probably be at least somewhat different than in OTL - perhaps more influenced by Zoroastrianism and Manicheism than Christianity and Judaism - maybe even some Buddhism or Hinduism! Might be interesting anyways. Let's see what i come up with.

Hendryk
November 21st, 2007, 01:48 PM
Eve if i choose Muhammad, islam will probably be at least somewhat different than in OTL - perhaps more influenced by Zoroastrianism and Manicheism than Christianity and Judaism - maybe even some Buddhism or Hinduism! Might be interesting anyways. Let's see what i come up with.
You may safely assume that the historical Mohammed has been butterflied away. There could however be some other charismatic leader to send the Arabs on regional conquest, but he wouldn't necessarily need to be a religious prophet to boot. He could be an Arab analog to Attila, in which case, of course, the Arab expansion could be shorter-lived, like the Huns in Europe.

Epimethius
November 21st, 2007, 02:15 PM
You may safely assume that the historical Mohammed has been butterflied away. There could however be some other charismatic leader to send the Arabs on regional conquest, but he wouldn't necessarily need to be a religious prophet to boot. He could be an Arab analog to Attila, in which case, of course, the Arab expansion could be shorter-lived, like the Huns in Europe.

How can you safely assume that Muhammed is butterflied away? Christianity still exists, even if it is a minority cult (which would probably mean it would stay in and around the middle east, making it still available for muhammed to encounter). Not criticizing you just curious as to your reasoning. And sorry Mars i guess i read the part about the Arabs wrong, which with your projected thoughts on matter, makes it even more possible for Muhammed to exist pretty close to OTL (all factors are still there, though with Christianity being a minority cult, it would probably influence him less). Anyways, looking forward to the next installment.

Hendryk
November 21st, 2007, 02:45 PM
How can you safely assume that Muhammed is butterflied away? Christianity still exists, even if it is a minority cult (which would probably mean it would stay in and around the middle east, making it still available for muhammed to encounter). Not criticizing you just curious as to your reasoning.
This isn't specifically about religious developments, it's about butterflies in general. If Christianity doesn't become the state religion in the Roman empire, it's a big enough change that the regions neighboring the imperial limes will be affected as well. Three or four centuries down the line, the odds are that Mohammed's parents won't even be around to conceive him. The Arabs, however, may still expand under someone else's leadership if the power vacuum they faced in OTL is there in TTL as well.

Faeelin
November 21st, 2007, 06:12 PM
This isn't specifically about religious developments, it's about butterflies in general. If Christianity doesn't become the state religion in the Roman empire, it's a big enough change that the regions neighboring the imperial limes will be affected as well. Three or four centuries down the line, the odds are that Mohammed's parents won't even be around to conceive him. The Arabs, however, may still expand under someone else's leadership if the power vacuum they faced in OTL is there in TTL as well.

Pff.

Allah will not let his plans be interrupted by anything so trifling.

Mars
November 22nd, 2007, 02:05 PM
alright lets do this


354-356 - Fulvius invades Dacia, initially all goes well, but he quickly realises the conquest will take far longer than he thought, and that he cannot continue to fight the Goths and hold Germania and the far eastern provinces. Ironically, as he is retreating from Dacia, Fulvius wins a battle against a large force of Goths, but still continues his retreat. He secures peace with the Goths and gives command of the Western Legions to Qintus Sergius Paullus, his adopted son.

367-370 - Fulvius leads campaigns against nomadic raiders north of Bactria. Hunnic raids reach the Caucasus. Fulvius dies in 370, Qintus Sergius Paullus is emperor.

372-378 - Sergius Paullus expands the army, raising 5 new legions, 4 to be stationed on the western borders of the empire and an extra legion in the east. Instead of invading Dacia, he makes treaties with the new Dacian gothic kingdoms against the Huns.


380 - 383 - Hunnic raids reach into eastern Europe, eastern Germanic tribes are driven farther west and begin flooding into the newly created Roman Germanic provinces, Sergius Paullus sends 3 legions to restore order, by 383 there are 9 legions in Germania trying desperately to control the situation.

385 - Huns invade and settle in the Dacian plain, a large group of Goths and Alans arrive in the Danube seeking asylum, they are met by the army of Sergius Paullus and are granted asylum, some Goths begin raiding in the Balkans and are slaughtered, the rest are resettled around the empire as tenant farmers or are added to the army as auxiliaries.

388 - More Goths try to enter the empire, these are refused, they cross the Danube and are defeated/enslaved by Paullus.


Cultural Notes---------4th century
* Population of the empire is about 100 million, including Germania.
* Romans discover paper through Trade with china. Paper begins replacing papyrus.
----------------------------------


390-400 - More Germanic migrations enter Roman controlled Germania. 4 Roman legions are cut off in the siege of Calancorum in 394. The siege lasts for months, they abandon the fortress and begin a fighting retreat back to friendly territory which quickly turns into a rout. In 395 , 1000 battered Romans arrive on the Legion fort in western Germania, what’s left of 4 legions from the eastern Germania province. Massive revolts throughout Germanic provinces forces Paullus to withdraw his legions west of the Rhine and abandon Roman Germania in 397. Thousands of Roman colonists are left behind. Many more flood into the Empire from Germania and Dacia and further strain the imperial supply lines. Paullus himself dies in 399. Marcus Cornelius Sulla Felix becomes emperor.

401 - 410 - Germanic attacks on the Rhine frontier grow increasingly fierce, Hunnic and gothic raids across the Danube also increasing. Felix creates special emergency militia units throughout the frontier provinces in Europe, these Milites Provinciales though not as well trained and equipped as the Legions, will be a key force in helping to keep the border provinces together.

413 - 416 A massive Germanic force breaks the Rhine frontier and enters Belgica burning and pillaging in their wake. Felix orders a strategic withdrawal. Cities such as Samarobriva and Argentoratum are so devastated they will never recover. As they enter Gaul however they begin to spread out to raid vaster territories and are slowed down by the actions of the militia forces, this allows the legions, many newly arrived from Britannia, to defeat them piecemeal. By 416 the Rhine frontier has been restored and most invaders have been destroyed.

417 - 418 - The major Hunnic kingdom in Dacia is led by the warlord Uldin. His kingdom stretches into the don river area and controls many Germanic and steppe tribes. Germanic tribes begin to create larger coalitions and alliances to defend themselves against the Hunnic raids. Felix realizing that he cannot fight all these enemies at once, begins to send diplomatic missions to the several Germanic kingdoms begin forged, he signs treaties with the Frank alliance and the Gepid tribes, they agree to help each other fight off the Huns. A Germano-Roman army defeats the Huns in 418 in Dacia. The Huns begin to lose control over their subject Germanic tribes.

419 - 425 - The Britannia Res Publica is established. Local Britannia governors had been complaining to the empire for over 100 years about the Saxon raids, and nothing had been done. As Saxon raids increased, they set up local militias and built defensive forts along the coast at their own expense. When the Britannia legions where withdrawn to fight off the Germanic invasions, Britannia was left in a precarious position. In 419 a large Saxon raid swept across the heart of Britannia and though they where defeated, the damage had been done. In 423, The provincial governors set up their own senate and began issuing their own currency. They raised 3 new Britannia legions, and began building a small navy to patrol the eastern shores. In 425, they declare themselves an independent republic. Felix quickly realizes he cannot go to war with all of Britannia and risk a war on several fronts. He agrees to recognize the Britannia state and signs trade agreements and mutual defense treaties to help fight off Saxon pirates, much to the surprise of the Britannia senators, who were preparing for a Roman invasion. An anti-Britannia faction is active in the Senate however.

425 - 426 - A vast Hunnic army invades across the danube into Thrace. Felix suffers a defeat at the battle of Marcianopolis, but is able to retreat and receive reinforcemens from Asia , he eventually pushes the Huns back across the Danube.

427 - 440 - A Few Hunnic and Germanic raids, but mostly peace, Felix strengthens the frontiers and reorganized the tattered legions as a massive war rages in Germania between the Huns and the newly established Germanic kingdoms.

440 - 445 Hunnic power begins to break down in Dacia as gothic and other dacian tribes revolt, Rome sends aid to the Goths and Gepids. By 435 several independent Germanic kingdoms in Dacia have been established, including the Gepid kingdom, the Langobard kingdom and 3 Gothic Kingdoms.

450 - Hephthalite raids into Bactria and the eastern provinces continue to intensify and Felix spends a few years in the east fighting them off. By this time Roman armies in the east have been using Manuballistae (crossbows) to great effect to fight off nomadic horse archers. Felix loves the simplicity and effectiveness of the weapon and begins equipping a large number of western troops with it, especially the Militia units, since it requires little training to master. He also brings west the Gupta style Indian longbow, which will be implemented on a smaller scale than the crossbow, but will still be an important part of Roman military.

467 - 471 - A massive Hephthalite force crosses into imperial territory and captures Bactra, capital of Bactria, Margiana falls the next year and so does the province of Gedrosia, east of Persia. Felix leads an army against the Hephthalites, he retakes Margiana but dies on campaign in Bactria on 469. His successor, Phillipus Valerius Messala decides that re-conquering and holding the far eastern Provinces is too costly and expensive for the Empire. He retreats back into Persia in 471 and signs a peace with the Hephthalite Khan.

471 - 500 - Hephthalite Khanate controls all eastern provinces east of Persia. They begin attacking the Gupta empire. After 500 much of the Great Gupta empire will be overrun by the Hephthalites and begin to break apart. Germanic kingdoms in Germania continue to consolidate their power and absorb smaller tribes, by 500, there are 5 major kingdoms, Frisian, Frankish, Alamanni, Vandal and Marcomanni. Farther North the Saxons have mostly conquered all of the Danish penninsula. In dacia, there are several separate gothic kingdoms, a Gepid kingdom and a Longobard kingdom. The Roman empire is mainly at peace at this time, reeling from the massive loss of territory and the wars of the past years. Phillipus builds up the frontier and the armies in the east and west and rules in relative peace, choosing to consolidate his power and make alliances with the powers that surround Rome instead of continuing in the militarist traditions of the past emperors. With the Hephthalites between Rome and the richer eastern empires in China and India, the Roman trading fleet in the east will grow to much larger sizes than before to continue to fill the demand for eastern goods - the compass will begin to be used by the Romans in this rush to build a better navy, probably adopted from the Indians.

Mars
November 22nd, 2007, 02:24 PM
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m189/Javierfv1212/canvasOrbusTerrarumCE500-1253AUC.png

CE 500 - 1253 AUC

Bavarian Raven
November 22nd, 2007, 02:29 PM
woot...interesting,,,it would be cool if there was a complete "saxon" invasion of the british isles...keep it coming...