no first conact with japs

[flamelord]

What if, instead of landing in japan, commodore Matthew Perry had landed somewhere else, like say, china?
And no, I do not know how this navigational mistake is made.

This is my first post and I am new at this.:D

[Calgacus]

What if, instead of landing in japan, commodore Matthew Perry had landed somewhere else, like say, china?
And no, I do not know how this navigational mistake is made.

This is my first post and I am new at this.:D

How the POD happens doesn't really matter - simply that it does happen! I presume that an expedition would go there sooner or later - it's hard to see the Japanese staying out of things for very long.

And by the way, "Jap" is sometimes considered derogatory, and is thus not so widely used nowadays. Better to say "Japanese".

[NomadicSky]

They aren't Japs they are the Japanese.

Someone in time would have forced them to contact the rest of the world. You could do a pod where the Spanish try to annex Japan.

[CalBear]

1st, Welcome to the Board.:)

Second (or rather for the third time), the term "Jap" is not generally used here. It may occassionally slip into a WW II conversation, but it is ALWAYS looked down upon, much like any number of other less than polite terms for groups. Your time here will be a lot more fun if you keep this in mind.

[Flocculencio]

Perry didn't blunder into Edo by chance- his mission was to open Japan. It was the follow-up to James Biddle's 1846 mission and James Glynn's 1848 mission. Biddle got sent off with a rebuff. Glynn managed to negotiate for the release of some American sailors but was rebuffed when he tried to negotiate for trade. He recommended to Congress that the US attempt negotiations backed up by the threat of force which was why Perry was despatched.

If Perry somehow screws up and makes landfall in China he'd just turn back around and head for Japan once more.

[NapoleonXIV]

This is rapidly becoming one of my favorite scenarios.

Let's say the Tokugawa have as Shogun someone of the caliber of Iemitsu, or even someone comparable to old Ieyasu himself. Whatever else can be said of the Tokugawa their system had worked pretty well for a very long time and under strong and benign rulers gave more people pleasant lives than most Western contemporaries. How would a Tokugawa led modernisation of Japan be different? Would there be less democracy? maybe more? Would there be no Taisho, or would Taisho not end with a military takeover in the 30's. What would happen?

[DuQuense]

In 1857 the Russian Governor in Valdistok, sent 7 warships into Tokyo Bay and demanded that japan sign over it's claim to Salhalikin.
Even if Perry was never sent, Japan would not have been allowed to stay in isolation much longer.

without the peaceful opening provoked by Perry, this Opening could have been postponed a decade or so,
The opening then would have been with IronShips and repeating rifles.

[Michael B]

In 1857 the Russian Governor in Valdistok, sent 7 warships into Tokyo Bay and demanded that japan sign over it's claim to Salhalikin.
Even if Perry was never sent, Japan would not have been allowed to stay in isolation much longer.

without the peaceful opening provoked by Perry, this Opening could have been postponed a decade or so,
The opening then would have been with IronShips and repeating rifles.
Japan was as isolated as is sometimes presented. The Americans in the form of whaling ships already sailing in her waters and one objective of the expedition was to establish the right to use Japanese ports for this rather than have the crews banged up for trespass.

I was not aware of the Russian expedition, but soon after Perry other European countries jumped in, most notably Britain. In fact on at least one occasion, a British regiment was stationed in Japan in order to force the payment of an indemnity.

Perry has been given the credit for ending Japan's isolation. However, if he had not, there would have been an expedition by another power anyway.

[flamelord]

First, sorry about the shortening of the word japanese that I used.:(

Second, the japanese in our timeline were very reliant on the U.S for materials that they could not find on their island. If the japanese had made contact with, say, the british. It would probably be a more strained relationship because, even with the suez canal, it takes a long time to get from britian to japan. Longer than it does from the U.S to japan.

[Flocculencio]

First, sorry about the shortening of the word japanese that I used.:(

Second, the japanese in our timeline were very reliant on the U.S for materials that they could not find on their island. If the japanese had made contact with, say, the british. It would probably be a more strained relationship because, even with the suez canal, it takes a long time to get from britian to japan. Longer than it does from the U.S to japan.

Depends- if you're talking raw materials, they'll mostly be exported from Britain's SE Asian colonies.

[DuQuense]

If whe can delay the opening 30 years, whe can get a German Japan

[83gemini]

Maybe. I know very little Japanese history. It would be interesting to know how contingent Japanese industrialization was, considering arguments I've heard that Japan was on the cusp in any case (save for the necessary coal and the like).

[Otis Tarda]

If whe can delay the opening 30 years, whe can get a German Japan

Possibly. IIRC, there was strong German influences on Japanese army.

Just off topic: did you guys know, that Japnese introduced German Civil Code BEFORE it was done in Germany ;)?

[Calgacus]

Possibly. IIRC, there was strong German influences on Japanese army.

Just off topic: did you guys know, that Japnese introduced German Civil Code BEFORE it was done in Germany ;)?

The Japanese specifically sought German military advisers, after 1871. Before that, they had mostly French advisers...;)

[flamelord]

without the peaceful opening provoked by Perry, this Opening could have been postponed a decade or so,
The opening then would have been with IronShips and repeating rifles.[/quote]

So you are saying that, russia would have attacked japan. Somehow I don't think that would have worked out. The plans for big and powerful warships might have "accidentally" fallen into the hands of the japanese while nations who didn't like russia set up trade routes with japan.

[M79]

Russia makes first contact two to five years later with much more hostility, perhaps taking Hokkaido in the process.

[flamelord]

Of course, I'm not a master at russian relations with the rest of the world at the time but isn't it possible that some country might go to wr with russia over this?

[flamelord]

Oops, I forgot to mention this but if what M79 says really happens. If, somehow the rest of history leading up to WW2 stays the same. We could be looking at a weaker japan in the war or at least increased japanese aggression to the russians.

[flamelord]

Oops, I forgot to mention this but if what M79 says really happens. If, somehow the rest of history leading up to WW2 stays the same. We could be looking at a weaker japan in the war or at least increased japanese aggression to the russians.

[flamelord]

If russia won that then maybe the japanese would have done a preemptive strike on some russian city. It is possible seeing as they have mainland china

[flamelord]

If japan had attacked russia and germany had also do you think russia could have withstood the assault if the americans didn't get involved?

[rcduggan]

dude, quintuple post. not cool.

[Billi the Axe]

Point Japan lacks the raw material's to exploit any tech they might aquire, So regardless of who opens Japan to the modern world it is not going to be on Japan's terms but their's,Matchlock's and Katana's wouldn't stand up
against even the backwards Russian's Army. The Japanese should thank thier Gods it was not a repeat of other ancient cultures being subsumed
by a European power.

[flamelord]

dude, quintuple post. not cool.

Oh, go jump off a cliff with no safety devices.