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View Full Version : WW2 after a Central Powers victory in WW1


Rekjavik
October 12th, 2007, 05:46 PM
There is a list of what I would like to know. Assuming that the Central Powers defeat the Entente in World War 1:

∑ What alliances will be involved?
∑ What tactics and strategies would be used by the opposing sides?
∑ Who would win?
The reason for this is because at first I thought that a fascist France and Britain, along with Russia, would fight against Germany and its allies. Then I read that France would be too weak for a third round against the Germans, and that only Russia was capable of rebuilding itself and attacking Germany. Then I read of a third option, a communist France and Britain would re-launch hostilities against the Germans.
There are just so many now that I have lost track. Do help straighten things out.

P.S: Mentioning possible battles of this World War 2 would is also welcome, but as this is AH and thinking of alternate battles in an alternate war is incredibly difficult, you can drop that one.

BrotherToAll
October 12th, 2007, 05:52 PM
In what year do the CP powers claim victory? Because that can make a big
difference in how things play out.

Gaius Julius Caesar
October 12th, 2007, 07:30 PM
well, if Germany won the first world war, who sais there would be a world war two in europe? maybe just war in asia...

Rekjavik
October 12th, 2007, 09:02 PM
In what year do the CP powers claim victory? Because that can make a big
difference in how things play out.

For the purpose of this TL letís say the Germans win WW1 in 1918, after a more successful 1917 offensive against the French, thus knocking them out. Russia will fall as in OTL. Italy fallows France soon after its defeat in 1917. Since there was no real way for Germany to crush Britain without risking being strangled because of the blockade, create a ceasefire in late 1918.

Riain
October 12th, 2007, 10:32 PM
I doubt there would be anyone strong enough to challenge Germany directly. With a German victory would Britain keep its treaty with Japan, and perhaps end up in conflict with the US?

Michael B
October 13th, 2007, 06:17 AM
I doubt there would be anyone strong enough to challenge Germany directly. With a German victory would Britain keep its treaty with Japan, and perhaps end up in conflict with the US?
Agree with that.

Moreover, Germany and the USA will be competing to for world leadership and that it is going to lead to some form of clash. The Americans are going to need a bridgehead in Europe and that is going to have to be France or Russia. I would go for France as the Americans were friendly with them at the time, but White Russia would also be attractive with US industrialist pouring into build factories.

I

Gaius Julius Caesar
October 13th, 2007, 07:53 AM
For the purpose of this TL letís say the Germans win WW1 in 1918, after a more successful 1917 offensive against the French, thus knocking them out. Russia will fall as in OTL. Italy fallows France soon after its defeat in 1917. Since there was no real way for Germany to crush Britain without risking being strangled because of the blockade, create a ceasefire in late 1918.

What happens to the Austrian Empire? If that doesn't fall apart then maybe the Impirialist ambitions of Germany and Austria could result in a conflict between those two, or is that to farfetched?:confused:

Homer
October 13th, 2007, 08:05 AM
Moreover, Germany and the USA will be competing to for world leadership and that it is going to lead to some form of clash. The Americans are going to need a bridgehead in Europe and that is going to have to be France or Russia. I would go for France as the Americans were friendly with them at the time, but White Russia would also be attractive with US industrialist pouring into build factories.


I fully agree with the potential competition between the German Empire and the US. I do not fully agree, however, with your choice of bridgeheads, although that, of course, depends on how Germany wins.

The German war goals were to end the French threat once and for all - as was the French goal to end the German threat. Given that Germany knocks France out, I'd bet on even harsher peace terms for the French than those for Germany, since Britain probably wouldn't be defeated by the Germans but rather took an armistice on the status quo. Thus France would be occupied in large parts, Calais would eb German, France would loose most of its colonies, pay a hard tribute, and would be forced into an economic alliance under the control of the Germans. France would probably have no chance to act as a bridgehead for the Americans.

Considering Russia, the Germans would probably crush the Reds, thus I'm assuming a White Russia, which would probably be a theater of economic competition between the two rivals Germany and USA. It may become an American bridgehead - although I'd assume that the Germans wouldn't hesitate to use preemptive force in such a case.

The most probable bridgehead would be Britain: The Germans might win WWI, yet they'd never defeat Britain at that time. Thus Britain survives as a great power and the natural rival to Germany. I'd bet on a rivalry between Britain and the US on one side and Germany and its "continental block" on the other side, Russia being between them both.

tallwingedgoat
October 13th, 2007, 08:25 AM
A CP victory will bring several difficult to resolve problems.

Probably the biggest is Eastern Europe. The Austro-Hungarian Empire will fall apart and Germany will try to annex the German parts like Austria and probably parts of Czechoslovakia. They will also want Solvenia to get a port in the Med. The Italians will be very unhappy. It will be a "beat them or join them" situation. They will either ally themselves to Germany or form alliances with France and Britain. Either way the Med will become contested waters. Germany and Russia will probably at some point fight over Poland as well.

Michael B
October 13th, 2007, 08:38 AM
The most probable bridgehead would be Britain: The Germans might win WWI, yet they'd never defeat Britain at that time. Thus Britain survives as a great power and the natural rival to Germany. I'd bet on a rivalry between Britain and the US on one side and Germany and its "continental block" on the other side, Russia being between them both.
I would disagree with bridgehead point. Imperial Japan's expansion into China and the way they were going about it was eventually going to get up US noses and lead to the sort of embargo that occurred on OTL. In reply, Pearl Harbor was exactly the sort of response one might expect.

Given that the Anglo-Japanese alliance would still be intact because the German victory in WW1, the USA is not going to be looking to use an ally of an enemy as a bridgehead against a third power.

Of course a policy shift from an Anglo-Japanese alliance to an Anglo-US would permit a bridgehead. However, why would Britain wish to switch from an alliance of which she is the senior partner to one where she is an equal and which the alliance achieves the same goal, namely containment of the German Highs Fleet?

Empror Mike
October 13th, 2007, 09:03 AM
∑ What alliances will be involved?


Germany, Austria Hungary, Turkish Republic, Bulgaria, Italy, East European pro-German states

vs.

Britain, the USA, Japan, France, USSR, maybe Balkan states



∑ What tactics and strategies would be used by the opposing sides?


I'll assume no German blitzkrieg. Other than that, everythings the same depending on the war's time period.



∑ Who would win?

The Germans, again.

Tocomocho
October 13th, 2007, 09:14 AM
Germany, Austria Hungary, Turkish Republic, Bulgaria, Italy, East European pro-German states


Why would Turkey go Republican? The Ottoman Empire lasted more years than the Russian, Austro-Hungarian and German ones in OTL. It was abolished in 1922, due to the absurd Treaty of Sevres. If it was the only one of the four empires mentioned that survived a defeat in the Great War, how in hell would it fall after a stunning victory?

Datner
October 13th, 2007, 09:23 AM
East European pro-German states
That would be puppet regimes. Reliance on their comittment to German cause would be based on weak foundations. Polish and Ukrainian forces likely to desert to Russia if Mitteleuropa plan is put forward.

BrotherToAll
October 13th, 2007, 09:48 AM
The Germans, again.

I think not with the full wieght of American industry against them as well as the Russians occupied with the Japanese armed with American weapons in the East (who is not to say America and Japan fought in the 30's so lets add American backed Korean and Chinese troops in the place of Japanese) and the Germans and their weak and disloyal vassle states and allies battling the full force of Anglo-American alliance I just dont see Germany winning also dont you think the various non-German ehtnic groups will rebel and rise up against the Germans? I for one can actualy see Polish and other Slavic troops switching sides my self because no self respecting Slav would ever truly accept the oppresive yoke of the Germans.

Empror Mike
October 13th, 2007, 03:47 PM
Why would Turkey go Republican? The Ottoman Empire lasted more years than the Russian, Austro-Hungarian and German ones in OTL. It was abolished in 1922, due to the absurd Treaty of Sevres. If it was the only one of the four empires mentioned that survived a defeat in the Great War, how in hell would it fall after a stunning victory?

It was steadily declining anyway. I dont think the Ottomans had any real chance of holding it together. The only reason the Ottomans held control over certain regions was because there was no nationalist sentiment (or majority group to sense it) in any other region. The best chance for the empire's maintainence is to refuel Turkish nationalism by founding a republic. Maybe then they do have a chance.

That would be puppet regimes. Reliance on their comittment to German cause would be based on weak foundations. Polish and Ukrainian forces likely to desert to Russia if Mitteleuropa plan is put forward.

I honestly dont believe anyone seriously considered the racist/colonialist parts of the Mitteleuropa plan. The Germans rather wanted a European Union sort of thing, dominated by Germany who would simply not offer any economic protection for the weaker members.

I think not with the full wieght of American industry against them as well as the Russians occupied with the Japanese armed with American weapons in the East (who is not to say America and Japan fought in the 30's so lets add American backed Korean and Chinese troops in the place of Japanese) and the Germans and their weak and disloyal vassle states and allies battling the full force of Anglo-American alliance I just dont see Germany winning also dont you think the various non-German ehtnic groups will rebel and rise up against the Germans? I for one can actualy see Polish and other Slavic troops switching sides my self because no self respecting Slav would ever truly accept the oppresive yoke of the Germans.

As opposed to that of the Russians?
When German troops marched through Poland, they were cheered and gladly welcomed. Germany was fairly egalitarian (racially), if compared to other European nations at the time. Russia was opressive, primitive, and brutal.
As said before, I think the Germans and Slavs could make good allies; the Second Reich wasn't an evil Nazi empire bent on world domination. The east European republics would have been 3/4 independent.

Datner
October 13th, 2007, 04:00 PM
As opposed to that of the Russians?Before the war German was more racist and discriminatory towards Poles then Russia.

The Germans rather wanted a European Union sort of thingEuropean Union is based on partnership and protection of minorities, German Empire wanted economic hegemony and German minority as elite class residing over second class citizens.

When German troops marched through Poland, they were cheered and gladly welcomedWhere did you read that ? All relations I read about the event, speak that occupation by Germans was resented due to widescale plunder and forced labour implemented by German Ober Ost, also writers speak about a very arrogant attitude of officals regarding locals. In history of WW1 there was no pro-German faction among Poles, the largest was Endecja pro-Russian(unite all Polish lands) and pro-Austrian(Congress Poland and Galicia as third Kingdom in AH). Germans had nothing to offer, and wanted to gain much from Poland.

As said before, I think the Germans and Slavs could make good alliesGermans were germanising regions like Wielkopolska or Pomerania, and also planning to expell milions of Poles from annexed regions. This wouldn't make a good ground for any alliance.

The east European republics would have been 3/4 independent.Except:
German princes as heads of state
Industry in German hands
Military in German hand
Transport network in German hands
Citizens expelled to make room for German settlers.

Only culture and teaching would be granted some autonomy but even that was already being limited during short German rule in Poland 1916-1918.

BrotherToAll
October 13th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Though there might not actually be a second war as we know it I think America would fight a war with Japan in the mid 30's the Germans start to loose their grip on what they have taken control of as various ethnic groups fight insurgent wars against their German run governments Russia explodes into another (American supported rebels?) civil war and from there on it all goes down hill for Germany from there. So instead of a major war it could be a number of smaller conflicts lead to eventual melt down of the German empire.

Riain
October 13th, 2007, 09:16 PM
The biggest problem for this sort of scenario is that what happened IOTL can't be projected ITTL because the fundamental dynamics of world power will be radically different. It's safe to say that Germany will be undoubtably the most, or second most (depending on the actions of the US, with it's small standing army) powerful country in the world. German political actions in the conquered territory will change in over the years, as it adjusts to the reality of hegemony. Some people will resent the new regime, but others will benefit; there will be increased infrastructure and German governence will be miles ahead of Russia or AH, trains will run on time, the mail will be reliable and people will notice and appreciate the difference. The upshot is that Britain, France and Russia will have to look at their performance and lift their game, but I doubt this will be enough to give them the power to challenge Germany.

BrotherToAll
October 14th, 2007, 04:21 AM
So ITTL the only country capable of challenging Germany is the US?

Riain
October 14th, 2007, 04:43 AM
No, certainly not. Russia with 15-20 years peace would become a serious rival to Germany. A strong strategic bond between Britian and France, a customs union between them and their empires and very close military bonds would also be a serious rival to Germany. However they would be at best equals, or more probably close inferiors. Its is only the US which would have a comfortable margin of industrial power over Germany. I doubt that any of these power blocs would lightly risk war with another.

BrotherToAll
October 14th, 2007, 04:52 AM
So what sort of conflict would you need to a war between the Germans and the British, French, Russians, and Americans in 1950 (ten years after the American victory over Japan in the war in the Pacific)?

Riain
October 14th, 2007, 07:48 AM
I think if a WW2 did start it would not be in the superpower heartlands. Perhaps rivalry in China, or other parts of the world could spark trouble, and once a fight started everyone would jump in to settle old scores.

Empror Mike
October 14th, 2007, 02:56 PM
Before the war German was more racist and discriminatory towards Poles then Russia.

Are u basing that on the testamony of your grandparents?

Because I am.

Max Sinister
October 15th, 2007, 12:26 PM
Hurgan, is that you?

Michael B
October 15th, 2007, 05:31 PM
I think if a WW2 did start it would not be in the superpower heartlands. Perhaps rivalry in China, or other parts of the world could spark trouble, and once a fight started everyone would jump in to settle old scores.
Plausible as WW1 did not start in the heartland either.