Luftwaffe vs Ships (including Royal Navy)

[SunilTanna]

In early WW2, the Luftwaffe was relatively ineffective against ships, right? They only sank very few British ships during Dunkirk. And if the Germans had attempted Sealion, the wouldn't have done much better against the RN ships heading for the channel. Right?

Or is it?

I just read that the Luftwaffe sank 25 Greek naval vessels in the first few days of the attack on Greece?

[Anaxagoras]

Well, there is a *slight* difference between a Greek patrol ship and a Nelson-class battleship.

[SunilTanna]

The Greek ships sank by the Luftwaffe included 2 Mississippi class battleships, Kilkis and Limnos, both by Stukas. While dated, and not in the same class as RN battleships, I think it dispels the idea the Luftwaffe was totally ineffective against ships.

Don't forget the poor Luftwaffe performance at Dunkirk (the case for the Luftwaffe being poor against ships), was principally attacks against destroyers - not Nelson class BBs.

[Atreus]

Don't forget the poor Luftwaffe performance at Dunkirk (the case for the Luftwaffe being poor against ships), was principally attacks against destroyers - not Nelson class BBs.

Destroyers have lighter armor, and these were sitting still and picking up soldiers, so this yields mixed messages.

Can the Luftwaffe kill some ships? Yes. Can it realistically stop the RN during Sealion? No. There is a difference between sinking the obsolete Greek navy at anchor and attacking the bulk of the Royal Navy, on the move, under the cover of the RAF. And even if the Royal Navy is hammered, any ships getting through would be problematic for the Germans. As I recall, the wake from a destroyer at high speed could capsize one of those Rhine barges. And then you have the armaments problem. Against warships during WWII, the best offensive weapon aircraft could carry was the torpedo, followed by armor-pierceing bombs. The Luftwaffe had very few torpedos or torpedo bombers, and I can't recall the armor-piercing bombs being especially effective. The Luftwaffe would be a nuisance, but just is not equiped to bring down the RN.

[Markus]

Err, the Mississippi class BBs were totally obsolete PDNs so run down they served as a floating battery and a trainging ship:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_class_battleship

Initially the GAF might not have done well, but that changed later. Furthermore the GAF did not have air superiority over Dunkirk.

[SunilTanna]

There is a difference between sinking the obsolete Greek navy at anchor

The battleships weren't at anchor. They were steaming in the Salamis channel.

And they weren't (or shouldn't have been) surprised either. They were sank about 3 weeks after Germany declared war on Greece..

and attacking the bulk of the Royal Navy, on the move, under the cover of the RAF. And even if the Royal Navy is hammered, any ships getting through would be problematic for the Germans. As I recall, the wake from a destroyer at high speed could capsize one of those Rhine barges.

You're leaping ahead.

I'm talking about whether the Luftwaffe was as ineffective as is usually claimed against ships... not whether Sealion would have worked.

[MrP]

I'm just having a late lunch, so can't add much. But there's probably an accurate list of vessels of the Royal Hellenic Navy here (http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/greek_navy.htm), including how their service careers ended. I'll copy and paste as I eat.

*munch, munch*

DESTROYERS
Thyella Launched 1906 Sunk by German aircraft on the 21st April 1941, in Vouliagmeni Bay

Leon Launched July 1911 Sunk in Suda Bay, Crete by German aircraft on the 15th May 1941

BATTLESHIPS

Kilkis (ex USS Mississippi) 30th September 1905 Used as a Floating battery at salamis, and was sunk by German JU87 on 23rd April 1941

Limnos (ex USS Idaho) 9th December 1905 Used as a Floating battery at salamis, and was sunk by German JU87 on 23rd April 1941

Sorry, nothing else there. I suspect that many of the 25 may have been very small indeed not to be listed there. I'll go check Jane's. Nope, nothing there of any use. I think your best bet on finding out what the other 21 were is probably to get ahold of someone with the 1922-1946 Conway's. That'll list everything Greece had down to ridiculously low tonnages like 40 or so, and say how they went down.

Might I ask where you read that the Luftwaffe sank 25 vessels? And are you sure they were all proper military ones? I'd not be surprised if the Greeks had pressed some civilian ships into service.

[MrP]

Actually, could some of these 25 ships be RN vessels?

[MrP]

From uboat.net:


Greek Naval forces (http://uboat.net/allies/ships/greek.htm)

The Greek destroyer Adrias missing its entire bow.

The Greek Navy was consisted of 1 old battleship (built in 1940, disarmed and turned to training duties in 1932*), 1 minelayer, 10 destroyers and 6 submarines when Greece entered the war. The Greek Navy participated in a lot of operations in the Mediterranean and also in some convoys in the Atlantic Sea. The Greek merchant navy also contributed a lot during WWII.

The Greek vessels had big successes during whole war, fought bravely and contributed a lot in that war. The Greek Navy sank 2 Italian subs (the Uarsciek was captured by Greek and British destroyers on 15 Dec, 1942 in the Mediterranean but sank while in tow and the Neghelli) and 1 U-boat.



Greek Naval successes
The Greek destroyer Pindos sank the U-458 with depth charges on 22 August, 1943 south-east of Italy.
It is claimed from Greek sources that the destroyer Adrias had a successful depth charge attack on 27 January, 1943 in the North Atlantic Sea. No German U-boat can be attributed to this attack. Also the same destroyer is claimed from Greek sources to have sunk U-623 on 13 February 1943, in the South Atlantic, west of the African coast. This is not true since that boat was sunk by a British aircraft.


Greek Naval losses
Greeks lost many warships in the war, including 5 destroyers (Leon, Psara, Ydra, Vasilefs Georgios, Vasilissa Olga), the minelayer Elli and 4 submarines. None of these warship losses were to German U-boats.
It is worth to mention that the Greek minelayer Elli was sunk intentionally by the Italian submarine Delfino, while Greece was still a neutral country in the war.

Read about the famous Peleus incident in our history section.

* Some confusion with dates here, methinks. ;)

[SunilTanna]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Greece_during_World_War_II#Nav y

The Hellenic Royal Navy suffered enormous casualties during the German invasion, losing over 20 ships, mostly to German air attacks, within a few days in April 1941. Its chief, Vice Admiral Alexandros Sakellariou, managed to save some of its ships, including the cruiser Averof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_cruiser_Georgios_Averof), six destroyers, five submarines and several support ships, by evacuating them to Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Navy#World_War_II

But when Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) attacked Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Greece), the RHN was literally decimated by the Luftwaffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe), suffering the loss of 25 ships within a few days in April 1941. It was then decided to shift the remaining fleet (one cruiser -the famous Averof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_cruiser_Georgios_Averof)-, three destroyers and five submarines) to Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria) in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt).

[MrP]

I have a list of RHN vessels lost in WWII - from uboat.net. Excellent! Link here (http://uboat.net/allies/warships/war_losses.html?navy=RHS), picture below is a screenshot.

[MrP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Greece_during_World_War_II#Nav y

The Hellenic Royal Navy suffered enormous casualties during the German invasion, losing over 20 ships, mostly to German air attacks, within a few days in April 1941. Its chief, Vice Admiral Alexandros Sakellariou, managed to save some of its ships, including the cruiser Averof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_cruiser_Georgios_Averof), six destroyers, five submarines and several support ships, by evacuating them to Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Navy#World_War_II

But when Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) attacked Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Greece), the RHN was literally decimated by the Luftwaffe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe), suffering the loss of 25 ships within a few days in April 1941. It was then decided to shift the remaining fleet (one cruiser -the famous Averof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_cruiser_Georgios_Averof)-, three destroyers and five submarines) to Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria) in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt).

It's ok, old man. I'm in the process of transcribing the uboat.net mini-histories of the ships I found. Will post when done. :)

[MrP]

I think the 20+ ships must include some foreign ones. The place I cited only gives 16 lost in the right time period, and only ten of them to bombing (and one of those ten was immobilised). Quite a few (but not all) of these ships are rather elderly, so comparisons with the much more modern RN are hard to draw. Anyway, hope this helps. :)

Lost to the Luftwaffe: 10 ships
RHS Psara (D 96)
RHS Thyella
RHS Aliakmon
RHS Ydra (D 97)
RHS Kios
RHS Kilkis
RHS Lemnos
RHS Kyzikos
RHS Kidonia
RHS Leon (D 50)
Lost: 15 May, 1941 - Leon was damaged on 18 April 1941 when she collided with the passenger ship Ardena. Two depth charges rolled overboard and in the explosion her stern was blown off. Leon was towed from the Salamis Navy Yard to Suda Bay, Crete where she was finally bombed sunk by German aircraft on 15 May 1941.

Scuttled to avoid capture: 4
RHS Aigli Scuttled at Saronis Bay to prevent her capture. She was already damaged by German aircraft.
RHS Alkyoni
RHS Arethousa
RHS Pergamos

Unstated: 2
RHS Nestos
RHS Axios

Details follow:

RHS Proussa
Torpedo boat of the Kidoniai class
Launched ’16, commissioned ’19
Lost off Corfu to Italian aircraft on 4 Apr, 1941
"The TB was riding at anchor in Dafnila Bay, Corfu island, NW Greece, when she was attacked and sunk, along with the Greek steamer Sussanna by Italian Ju-87s belonging to the 239th Sqn, 97th Dive-bombing group (Captain Mario Larket).
That air group carried out 3 attacks that day, each with 6 machines, against Greek naval vessels. Germany did not enter the fray against Greece until 6 April, therefore the notion German planes made this attack is patently incorrect."

RHS Psara (D 96)
Destroyer of the Kondouriotis class
Launched ’32
Lost 20 Apr, ’41 to German aircraft off Megara

RHS Thyella
Torpedo boat of the Thyella class
Launched: ’06
Lost: 21 Apr, ’41 to German aircraft off Piraeus

RHS Aliakmon
Minelayer of the Aixos class
Lost: 22 Apr, ’41 in the Bay of Corinth to German aircraft
Noteable events involving Aliakmon include:
22 Apr, 1941
Reported to have shot down a German aircraft.

RHS Ydra (D 97)
Destroyer of the Kondouriotis class
Launched: Oct, ’31
Lost: 22 Apr, 1941 German Stuka dive bombers off Piraeus.

RHS Doris
Torpedo boat of the Alcyon class
Lost: 23 Apr, 1941 - Scuttled at Porto Rafti to prevent her capture.

RHS Kios
Torpedo boat of the Kidonia class
Launched: ’14
Commissioned: ’19
Lost: 23 Apr, 1941 to German aircraft off Piraeus

RHS Nestos
Minelayer of the Aixos class
Lost: 23 Apr, 1941 – cause not stated on uboat.net.

RHS Aigli
Torpedo boat of the Alcyon class
Lost: 24 Apr, 1941 - Scuttled at Saronis Bay to prevent her capture. She was already damaged by German aircraft.

RHS Alkyoni
Torpedo boat of the Alcyon class
Lost: 24 Apr, 1941 - Scuttled at Vouliagmeni Bay to prevent her capture.

RHS Arethousa
Torpedo boat of the Alcyon class
Lost: 24 Apr, 1941 - Scuttled off Varkizy to prevent her capture.

RHS Kilkis
Coastal defence ship of the Kilkis class
Launched: ’05
Commissioned (in RHN): ‘14
Lost: 24 Apr, 1941 - Decommissioned in 1932 and used as Artillery training ship thereafter.
Sunk by German aircraft at the Salamis Navy Yard.

RHS Lemnos
Coastal defence ship of the Kilkis class
Launched: ’05
Commissioned (in RHN): ‘14
Lost: 24 Apr, 1941 - Sunk by German aircraft at the Salamis Navy Yard.

RHS Kyzikos
Torpedo boat of the Kidonia class
Launched: ’14
Commissioned: ’19
Lost: 25 Apr, 1941 - Sunk at Salamis by German aircraft

RHS Pergamos
Torpedo boat of the Kidonia class
Launched: ’16
Commissioned: ’19
Lost: 25 Apr, 1941 - Scuttled at Salamis to prevent her capture.

RHS Kidonia
Torpedo boat of the Kidonia class
Launched: ’15
Commissioned: ’19
Lost: 26 Apr, 1941 - Sunk at Monemvasisa (sic) by German aircraft.

RHS Axios
Minelayer of the Aixos class
Launched: ’15
Commissioned: ’19
Lost: 28 Apr, 1941 - Sunk at Syros. No cause stated at uboat.net.

RHS Leon (D 50)
Destroyer of the Aetos class
Launched: ’11
Commissioned: ’12
Lost: 15 May, 1941 - Leon was damaged on 18 April 1941 when she collided with the passenger ship Ardena. Two depth charges rolled overboard and in the explosion her stern was blown off. Leon was towed from the Salamis Navy Yard to Suda Bay, Crete where she was finally bombed sunk by German aircraft on 15 May 1941.

[esl]

The Luftwaffe sank /crippled or damaged 300 vessels in the 10 days in and around Operation Dynamo [Dunkirk] including 200 small coastal vessels and 50 warships [DD/DE/MS/sloop] plus another 50 armed trawlers/yatchts and civilian ships. That was from a mere 200 Stuka that spent most of their time bombing the troops on Dunkirk, not the sea targets.They may have only flown 1000 actual sortie against shipping in that ten days.

In the context of Sealion a crippled ship is as good as sunk since it takes weeks or months to repair, while a damaged ship is out of ops for days to a week.

Looking at crippled sunk figures, the allies lost 34 x DD/DE/MS/Sloop and 42 Armed trawlers/yachts & merchant ships.

At Sealion the Germans planned to operate up to 300 Stuka so we can reasonably expect 50% more results form a Sealion event, if the conditions are comparable. In Dunkirk the vast majority of the vessels were ploughing across the shallow waters of the Straits of Dover, and many were not at full speed either in harbors or overloaded with troops.

The Over crowding is overstated since the actual weight increase is meger [maybe 60-80 tons], so the ships would be mostly effected by navigateing through such shallow waters at high tides etc. But these conditions would also be present in any crossing since the crossing was planned for the same area of the English Channel. And extensive mine fields [decoys or real] are going to slow down and channel all shipping involved in these battles.

Further The British Admiralty put all their anti invasion warships on alert in mid September for the anticipated invasion. This meant they were in harbour under a two hour notice to scramble. During the summer of 1940 the Luftwaffe were able to mounted a string of attacks on coastal shipping and ports since the RAF radar network didn't extend over the channel enough to allow them to intercept such strikes.

If the Luftwaffe strike in the same manner they did over Dover in the Summer of 1940 , they will catch most of these warships slow in habour and would probably get similar results to Dunkirk attacks.

So if this holds true, the larger Stuka force operating ahead of Sealion could be able to sink or cripple ~ 50 RN DD/DE/MS and damage another 25, while damaging crippling or sinking > 50 armed trawlers/yatchs.

The British Anti invasion fleet only counted on about 76 DD+ 12 CL + 5 DE and 40 MS.Which means the LW could damage cripple or sink 2/3 of this force in the couple of weeks leading up to Operation Sealion. The RN would also have had 580 trawlers/fishing boats and the loss their would have been only 10%, however 2/3 of these types of fishing vessels were unarmed.
And then theirs the question of reinforcements.

So while the LW could not be expected to completely stop the RN they could gut it of its most important assets, and mines could make a similar contribution, if push comes to shove. If these combine the RN threat could be reduced to a tollerable & managable level.

Nothing in war is absolute and German combined arms doctrine never required winning airsuperiority prior to mounting an offensive/invasion. To that extent the basic OKW Sealion plan did not require obtain airsperiority prior to launching the invasion, only control of the skys over the channel , which they effectively had by September.

German intelligence also failed them , not for the first time. The Germans overestimated the British strength on the ground and assumed they needed to land 41 full strength division in a matter of weeks to overwhelm the 38 expected reduced strength British Divisions.

Having said that Hitler had other ideas. He wanted a major victory with little chance of failure and no one could guarantee that. A mid Sept, British coordinated air-sea attack looked to destroy 1/10th of the invasion fleet in a week. Combined with the failure in the skys over England at the same time and this soured Hitlers view of the Operation at the right time. In actuality the attack on the invasion fleet was of meger success with most of the German vessels only lightly damage and 2/3 of these had been returned to service within a week.Accordingly an unrealistic emphasis was placed on the success of the air campagin, that prewar studies had already showed the LW, could not win.

According to the final tally/plan the Germans could only emass enough shipping to transfere about 28 divisions across in a matter of 4-6 weeks. So the invasion plan became a 'last resort'. As a point of interest the UK only had about 25-30 divisions and 1/2 of those were useless divisions only good for static coastal defense .Infact only a few of those static divisios would have been in the path of the invasion anyway. USN Admiral Ansel noted that at the start of the war another 250 German merchant vessels were over seas and thus prevented from returning home during the war. Had the need been recognised prewar, these ships could have been recalled prior to the out break of war. In that case the Germans would have had double the transport and probably enough to mount the reduced campaign in a matter of weeks.

[MrP]

I wondered when you'd spot this, esl. ;)

Have you got any data for SunilTanna on relative Allied and Axis airpower during the invasion of Greece?

[Markus]

Err, guys, we know Sealion is ASB and it´s off-topic. This is about Greece in 41. So, it would be helpful, if someone had to offer some information on the situation in 41. Like what tactics and weapons the opposing forces had and in in what quantity?

[MrP]

Err, guys, we know Sealion is ASB and it´s off-topic.

esl is, ah, somewhat single-minded when it comes to Sealion. It's perhaps best to, um, work around the issue. ;)

This is about Greece in 41. So, it would be helpful, if someone had to offer some information on the situation in 41. Like what tactics and weapons the opposing forces had and in in what quantity?

Oh, absolutely. I'd love to see some hard numbers. It's hard to judge with the numbers so far. Though I wouldn't oppose comparison of a torpedo boat built in '06 with a '30-ish fishing boat . . . ;) :D

Seriously, though, aye. Some hard numbers would be good.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The Greek ships sank by the Luftwaffe included 2 Mississippi class battleships, Kilkis and Limnos, both by Stukas. While dated, and not in the same class as RN battleships, I think it dispels the idea the Luftwaffe was totally ineffective against ships.

Don't forget the poor Luftwaffe performance at Dunkirk (the case for the Luftwaffe being poor against ships), was principally attacks against destroyers - not Nelson class BBs.

The Luftwafe sank all those Greek ships in harbor. The air force of Upper Volta could have pulled that off. There's a big difference between attacking ships in harbor, even warships, where they're not at battlestations, their watertight hatches are open, can't maneuver, guns aren't manned, etc., and attacking them at sea. Especially a balanced and capable force like the RN.

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

This tells us nothing but that the Germans were capable of sinking overloaded ships, stationary to receive troops, overloaded, and with the RAF overstretched trying to protect the army and the transports, and the RN limited in its capability to do much.

In a Sealion scenario the tables are turned - the RAF and RN now focus all their efforts on destroying flimsy German transports.

Sealion would have detroyed the German military.

The Luftwaffe sank /crippled or damaged 300 vessels in the 10 days in and around Operation Dynamo [Dunkirk] including 200 small coastal vessels and 50 warships [DD/DE/MS/sloop] plus another 50 armed trawlers/yatchts and civilian ships. That was from a mere 200 Stuka that spent most of their time bombing the troops on Dunkirk, not the sea targets.They may have only flown 1000 actual sortie against shipping in that ten days.

In the context of Sealion a crippled ship is as good as sunk since it takes weeks or months to repair, while a damaged ship is out of ops for days to a week.

Looking at crippled sunk figures, the allies lost 34 x DD/DE/MS/Sloop and 42 Armed trawlers/yachts & merchant ships.

At Sealion the Germans planned to operate up to 300 Stuka so we can reasonably expect 50% more results form a Sealion event, if the conditions are comparable. In Dunkirk the vast majority of the vessels were ploughing across the shallow waters of the Straits of Dover, and many were not at full speed either in harbors or overloaded with troops.

The Over crowding is overstated since the actual weight increase is meger [maybe 60-80 tons], so the ships would be mostly effected by navigateing through such shallow waters at high tides etc. But these conditions would also be present in any crossing since the crossing was planned for the same area of the English Channel. And extensive mine fields [decoys or real] are going to slow down and channel all shipping involved in these battles.

Further The British Admiralty put all their anti invasion warships on alert in mid September for the anticipated invasion. This meant they were in harbour under a two hour notice to scramble. During the summer of 1940 the Luftwaffe were able to mounted a string of attacks on coastal shipping and ports since the RAF radar network didn't extend over the channel enough to allow them to intercept such strikes.

If the Luftwaffe strike in the same manner they did over Dover in the Summer of 1940 , they will catch most of these warships slow in habour and would probably get similar results to Dunkirk attacks.

So if this holds true, the larger Stuka force operating ahead of Sealion could be able to sink or cripple ~ 50 RN DD/DE/MS and damage another 25, while damaging crippling or sinking > 50 armed trawlers/yatchs.

The British Anti invasion fleet only counted on about 76 DD+ 12 CL + 5 DE and 40 MS.Which means the LW could damage cripple or sink 2/3 of this force in the couple of weeks leading up to Operation Sealion. The RN would also have had 580 trawlers/fishing boats and the loss their would have been only 10%, however 2/3 of these types of fishing vessels were unarmed.
And then theirs the question of reinforcements.

So while the LW could not be expected to completely stop the RN they could gut it of its most important assets, and mines could make a similar contribution, if push comes to shove. If these combine the RN threat could be reduced to a tollerable & managable level.

Nothing in war is absolute and German combined arms doctrine never required winning airsuperiority prior to mounting an offensive/invasion. To that extent the basic OKW Sealion plan did not require obtain airsperiority prior to launching the invasion, only control of the skys over the channel , which they effectively had by September.

German intelligence also failed them , not for the first time. The Germans overestimated the British strength on the ground and assumed they needed to land 41 full strength division in a matter of weeks to overwhelm the 38 expected reduced strength British Divisions.

Having said that Hitler had other ideas. He wanted a major victory with little chance of failure and no one could guarantee that. A mid Sept, British coordinated air-sea attack looked to destroy 1/10th of the invasion fleet in a week. Combined with the failure in the skys over England at the same time and this soured Hitlers view of the Operation at the right time. In actuality the attack on the invasion fleet was of meger success with most of the German vessels only lightly damage and 2/3 of these had been returned to service within a week.Accordingly an unrealistic emphasis was placed on the success of the air campagin, that prewar studies had already showed the LW, could not win.

According to the final tally/plan the Germans could only emass enough shipping to transfere about 28 divisions across in a matter of 4-6 weeks. So the invasion plan became a 'last resort'. As a point of interest the UK only had about 25-30 divisions and 1/2 of those were useless divisions only good for static coastal defense .Infact only a few of those static divisios would have been in the path of the invasion anyway. USN Admiral Ansel noted that at the start of the war another 250 German merchant vessels were over seas and thus prevented from returning home during the war. Had the need been recognised prewar, these ships could have been recalled prior to the out break of war. In that case the Germans would have had double the transport and probably enough to mount the reduced campaign in a matter of weeks.

[FletcherofSaltoun]

This tells us nothing but that the Germans were capable of sinking overloaded ships, stationary to receive troops, overloaded, and with the RAF overstretched trying to protect the army and the transports, and the RN limited in its capability to do much.

In a Sealion scenario the tables are turned - the RAF and RN now focus all their efforts on destroying flimsy German transports.

Sealion would have detroyed the German military.
Which therefore means it would have been a good thing for the germans to attempt such an operation.:D