1493: new faiths, new denominations, new sects

[Keenir]

Figure we're going to need this sooner or later...particularly with the Wettinites, the Sect of the Jew, and even Guru Nanak taking a different path.

This thread is for listing (and discussion? or should that have its own thread?) sects and religions unique to the 1493 ATL.

[Tomb]

Their has beena creation of a state christian religion in the New World in the Tarascan Empire....with it's ruler as the head of the church.....

[marl_d]

the Sect of the Jew is not new, it's an OTL, the new sect of Orthodoxy is the Sorskivites, and they are the ones that will join the Eucharist with the Wittens

[Tom Veil]

I'll do the easy one first and the hard one later:

Iroquois Native Religion:

Same as OTL, except
1. The Grand Council of All Iroquois Peoples is now part of the Legend of Hiawatha. There is therefore a missionary dream of uniting all ethnically-Iroquois peoples.
2. Sometime around 1540, Hurit will die and join the pantheon of great prophets to be eternally revered.

[Psychomeltdown]

Church of Portugal:

Taking some Wittenite changes and implementing their own. Basically bastardized Christianity with reforms and a decentralized hierarchy.

[Keenir]

Church of Portugal:

Taking some Wittenite changes and implementing their own. Basically bastardized Christianity with reforms and a decentralized hierarchy.

you want decentralized, why not take San? there'd be

..........................................KING
|||||||||||||||||||THE PEOPLE|||||||||||||||||||||

...and nobody else in the (religious) hierarchy.

[Psychomeltdown]

you want decentralized, why not take San? there'd be

..........................................KING
|||||||||||||||||||THE PEOPLE|||||||||||||||||||||

...and nobody else in the (religious) hierarchy.

I'm thinking it's more a political product, something that is designed to be non threatening to the people in power. Hence it's decentralized set up and almost no real guidelines as to how it should be run.

Most likely it'll end up grabbing everything from every religion and expanding on them, warping them into their own views.

[Glen]

Keenir, please remind us all again where San Christianity developed?

I have real concerns about the plausibility of the development of this sect, and especially its spread. Not that it could exist or its tenets, but the geopolitics of it.

at the time it entered Venice...

Tenents of San Christianity in the 1493 ATL. (any thoughts about a better name for this faith? Church of the Poor, perhaps?)

Baptism-- See _Infants_

Center -- Christocentricity. “The Bible can be recited without err or fault; Christ will not save with reciting alone.”

Church Infalibility -- See _Holy Tradition_

Coming to God -- While there are many paths to finding God {ie, not everyone has a Paul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus moment}; once having found God, conformity within the spiritual community is praised.

Communion -- There is (*clean*) dust sprinkled on whatever surface is used to bake the bread, thereby bringing God’s act of creation to the worshipper {the priest asks God’s permission to do so at the start of Communion}. It does not matter if the bread transubstantiates*** for it is the worshipper’s acceptance of Christ into their heart that brings them closer on Earth and – more importantly – in Heaven. However, while this means there’s a measure of latitude afforded as to the mode of Communion, it may *not* be unleavened bread.

Expanded Portions of the Bible -- The tale of the woman of Samaria, who goes on to be a missionary of God’s Word.

The Faith of God -- “God has faith that we shall accept His Grace.”

The Filioque -- Dropped. “To argue the nature of God is like counting the grains of sand in a desert, or counting the hairs in a crowded city.” “Why does it matter to you, woman, if they are father and son or are brothers? You cannot marry either, regardless.”

Holy Tradition -- “If you are a good and faithful son and are upright in the Church, it does not follow that you do as your corrupted father and grandfather have done – better by far that you do as your wise ancestors did.” In other words, if the problem is with the pre-existing (non-San) Church, simply ignore it as far back as needed, claiming a connection {in abstentia} with the early Church and the Apostles themselves.

Immaculate Conception -- applies to Jesus, but not to either Mary or Joseph.

Infants -- Babies do not require baptism to go to Heaven; if they were going to reject God, they wouldn’t be allowed to die until they were old enough to reject God {if you’re old enough to spit – not “spit-up” mind you – you are old enough to turn from God; by the same reasoning, anyone old enough to spit, is old enough to accept baptism}

Marriage -- “A man may re-marry as often as God wills him to, and God wills him to always care and provide for all the progeny of all his unions, for none of those progeny is bastardized. Mind, nor should he be stingy in generosity to the progeny of the unions of his friends.”

Missionary Work -- “While it is good if every man of faith goes out and seeks to convert the nonbelievers, it is better yet if the entire community goes forth with that aim.” {this is a relic of having entire villages able to be on the move}

Place within the broader Christian family of Churches -- The most favored of God and by God; the others have drifted to varying degrees along the wayside, mostly but not always through overemphasis on physical riches. {it wouldn’t be impossible for the San Christians to say one Church or another is “nearly as favored as we”}

Place in the Secular World -- “Fill all posts of life, take up the shovel and the trowel if those are all that remain, and fufill your volunteerism** to your duke while never sparing an opportunity to spread the Message of our Lord Christ.”

Predestination -- single predestination: the damned were damned from before the foundation of the world, while those not predestined are the Saved and the to-be-Saved.

Rejected portions of the Bible -- Revelations. “Christ had no hand in penning that book, as it is filled with mindless myth.”

Saints -- “A man is no longer a Saint if his name and his day are used only for feasting. A Saint is one who lives as did Christ.” “God calls some Saints to him soonest in their labors, while other Saints are left on Earth; each has their labors to perform in His Name, expecting no glory themselves. They would not be Saints if they asked for glory or praise.”

Scripture -- Of great importance. It is of singular importance to receive the Gospels in as close to their original language as possible. {this means they’re against local-language Bibles – better to have Latin if you can’t have Aramaic/Biblical Greek}

Simplicity -- Not simply a nice idea: this is mandatory. “A believer who acquires and acquires the dross that is of this world, is the worst believer, worse than even a Wettinite.”

Status of Jews -- With the exception of the Patriarchs and select prophets, all Jews are predestined to end up in Hell; note that they won’t be the only occupants there.

Status of Mary wife of Joseph -- Not of immaculate birth herself, but immaculately bore Jesus. She retained her purity long after the birth of Jesus, not losing it while birthing Jesus’ mortal siblings.

Status of Mary Magdaline -- Prostitute. “Know that even Mary Magdaline, who was a prostitute, showed greater care and reverence to our Lord, than did the Jews.”

Works / Faith -- Faith alone saves. However, good works and humble lives get the believer a place in Heaven closer to Christ {a Wettinite or Lutheran, on the other hand, who does no works or humility, will be stuck on the lower tier of the outskirts of Heaven, their eyes spending eternity watching Hell}


. ** = not as in “don’t get paid, don’t’ accept money,” but rather “you work by your choice, not through obligation.” Even so, I suspect some of them might become a nucleus for European Untouchables; I don’t mind if that does/doesn’t happen.

.*** = not sure if that would arise as a concession to the European converts, or if it never mattered anyway.

[Glen]

Tomb, I think you need to rachet this bit down a bit. The Tarascans basically have a thin veneer of Christianity so far, but they're not likely to start their own Christian Church. Now then, after we get you some proper priests and more mainstream Christianity, I can very much see the Tarascan leader taking aping a stance like many of the rulers in Europe where he vies with the Vatican as head of the Church in his realm.

And I think the understanding of the faith among the Tarascan laity will be more in keeping with what you are thinking of for this brand of Christianity.

Their has beena creation of a state christian religion in the New World in the Tarascan Empire....with it's ruler as the head of the church.....

[Keenir]

Keenir, please remind us all again where San Christianity developed?

the Kalahari.

I have real concerns about the plausibility of the development of this sect, and especially its spread. Not that it could exist or its tenets, but the geopolitics of it.

so far, I've only got it in Namibia and Venice (after the latter was mercilessly crushed - desperate people will reach for anything that offers solace)

...and am offering it to spread to Portugese areas, given that Portugese ships brought its founder to and later from the Kalahari.

[Keenir]

I was really hoping AJNolte would address this...


What is the Wettinite position on displays of wealth in the temporal realm? hoarding of gems and gold? draping your worldly possessions with gold?
what about displays of wealth on the inside of a church? on the Bible? on the altar?

[AJNolte]

at the time it entered Venice...

Tenents of San Christianity in the 1493 ATL. (any thoughts about a better name for this faith? Church of the Poor, perhaps?)

Baptism-- See _Infants_

Center -- Christocentricity. “The Bible can be recited without err or fault; Christ will not save with reciting alone.”

Church Infalibility -- See _Holy Tradition_

Coming to God -- While there are many paths to finding God {ie, not everyone has a Paul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus moment}; once having found God, conformity within the spiritual community is praised.

Communion -- There is (*clean*) dust sprinkled on whatever surface is used to bake the bread, thereby bringing God’s act of creation to the worshipper {the priest asks God’s permission to do so at the start of Communion}. It does not matter if the bread transubstantiates*** for it is the worshipper’s acceptance of Christ into their heart that brings them closer on Earth and – more importantly – in Heaven. However, while this means there’s a measure of latitude afforded as to the mode of Communion, it may *not* be unleavened bread.

Expanded Portions of the Bible -- The tale of the woman of Samaria, who goes on to be a missionary of God’s Word.

The Faith of God -- “God has faith that we shall accept His Grace.”

The Filioque -- Dropped. “To argue the nature of God is like counting the grains of sand in a desert, or counting the hairs in a crowded city.” “Why does it matter to you, woman, if they are father and son or are brothers? You cannot marry either, regardless.”

Holy Tradition -- “If you are a good and faithful son and are upright in the Church, it does not follow that you do as your corrupted father and grandfather have done – better by far that you do as your wise ancestors did.” In other words, if the problem is with the pre-existing (non-San) Church, simply ignore it as far back as needed, claiming a connection {in abstentia} with the early Church and the Apostles themselves.

Immaculate Conception -- applies to Jesus, but not to either Mary or Joseph.

Infants -- Babies do not require baptism to go to Heaven; if they were going to reject God, they wouldn’t be allowed to die until they were old enough to reject God {if you’re old enough to spit – not “spit-up” mind you – you are old enough to turn from God; by the same reasoning, anyone old enough to spit, is old enough to accept baptism}

Marriage -- “A man may re-marry as often as God wills him to, and God wills him to always care and provide for all the progeny of all his unions, for none of those progeny is bastardized. Mind, nor should he be stingy in generosity to the progeny of the unions of his friends.”

Missionary Work -- “While it is good if every man of faith goes out and seeks to convert the nonbelievers, it is better yet if the entire community goes forth with that aim.” {this is a relic of having entire villages able to be on the move}

Place within the broader Christian family of Churches -- The most favored of God and by God; the others have drifted to varying degrees along the wayside, mostly but not always through overemphasis on physical riches. {it wouldn’t be impossible for the San Christians to say one Church or another is “nearly as favored as we”}

Place in the Secular World -- “Fill all posts of life, take up the shovel and the trowel if those are all that remain, and fufill your volunteerism** to your duke while never sparing an opportunity to spread the Message of our Lord Christ.”

Predestination -- single predestination: the damned were damned from before the foundation of the world, while those not predestined are the Saved and the to-be-Saved.

Rejected portions of the Bible -- Revelations. “Christ had no hand in penning that book, as it is filled with mindless myth.”

Saints -- “A man is no longer a Saint if his name and his day are used only for feasting. A Saint is one who lives as did Christ.” “God calls some Saints to him soonest in their labors, while other Saints are left on Earth; each has their labors to perform in His Name, expecting no glory themselves. They would not be Saints if they asked for glory or praise.”

Scripture -- Of great importance. It is of singular importance to receive the Gospels in as close to their original language as possible. {this means they’re against local-language Bibles – better to have Latin if you can’t have Aramaic/Biblical Greek}

Simplicity -- Not simply a nice idea: this is mandatory. “A believer who acquires and acquires the dross that is of this world, is the worst believer, worse than even a Wettinite.”

Status of Jews -- With the exception of the Patriarchs and select prophets, all Jews are predestined to end up in Hell; note that they won’t be the only occupants there.

Status of Mary wife of Joseph -- Not of immaculate birth herself, but immaculately bore Jesus. She retained her purity long after the birth of Jesus, not losing it while birthing Jesus’ mortal siblings.

Status of Mary Magdaline -- Prostitute. “Know that even Mary Magdaline, who was a prostitute, showed greater care and reverence to our Lord, than did the Jews.”

Works / Faith -- Faith alone saves. However, good works and humble lives get the believer a place in Heaven closer to Christ {a Wettinite or Lutheran, on the other hand, who does no works or humility, will be stuck on the lower tier of the outskirts of Heaven, their eyes spending eternity watching Hell}


. ** = not as in “don’t get paid, don’t’ accept money,” but rather “you work by your choice, not through obligation.” Even so, I suspect some of them might become a nucleus for European Untouchables; I don’t mind if that does/doesn’t happen.

.*** = not sure if that would arise as a concession to the European converts, or if it never mattered anyway.

You're not going to want Junker. His views of predestination are quite a bit different, and he's actually a good bit nicer to the Jews.
In fact, hearing about the San Christians will probably push Luther into a much more pro-Semitic path than OTL. Luther's primarily a polemicist, and having to write polemics against the San will make him more sympathetic to the Jews (that's just how he is: a deeply contrary person).
Wow: there will be anti-San inquisitions everywhere in Europe if this spreads. They have generally antagonized everyone: Orthodox (disregarding tradition, and probably icons) Catholics (dropping the philioque, not accepting Papal supremacy, the attack on dross which will look like a direct attack on the Catholic church) and the Wettinites (mainly because you kept writing in all the anti-Wettinite polemics, to which Luther will respond with something...probably distressingly Lutherlike).

[AJNolte]

I was really hoping AJNolte would address this...

What is the Wettinite position on displays of wealth in the temporal realm? hoarding of gems and gold? draping your worldly possessions with gold?
what about displays of wealth on the inside of a church? on the Bible? on the altar?

It will probably develop in response to the San assetics, if they get there.
Wettinism will probably lay down principals something like the following:
1. It is good to make the Bible and churches beautiful, or well-crafted, in so far as such attempts are done with the intent of glorifying God.
2. It is not good to make the churches extremely ornate while the population is starving, or the church is failing to do the work of Christ.
3. Relics, Icons, statues, etc are fine, so long as they serve as aids to bring the people to God, not objects of idolatrous worship. Wettin will make a distinction between an idle and an icon, viewing Christ as the ultimate icon or image of God who has come to bring clarity, not establish idolatry.

So it will be a set of guidelines, largely dependent on intent and the practice of good works on the part of the congregation. I could even see him saying: "For every silver coin spent on the bejeweling and ornamentation of the church, let a gold coin be spent to succor the poor and the sick, and to bring the word of God to those who have not heard it."

[AJNolte]

One thing to keep in mind regarding Christian theology is that it tends to be highly reactive. That is, orthodoxy usually comes about as a result of heresy, reforms are generally related to specific abuses, etc. If you read almost any confession from modern Protestantism or church council of the Catholics or Orthodox, it is clearly reacting to something. The same may be said of large portions of the New Testament, particularly the letters of Paul. So if you're making new theology, try to figure out what event or series of events it's reacting to. (Keenir: you'll want to pay particular attention to this regarding San Christianity. My concerns with the San are as follows:
1. How did it spread to Venice? What makes the Venetians likely to listen to the theology of a few Calahari bushman? Keep in mind that the Venetians are (or regarded themselves as) deeply cosmopolitan. This may give you a foothold, but it may also make general acceptance more difficult.

I'd also make it a little less radical. Try to take cultural elements from the Khoisan and weave them into traditional Christianity as much as possible. This will make San Christianity more plausible.
As for the Tariscans: I imagine their elites will convert to Christianity, and I could see them sending one of their king's sons to Europe to train as a priest (this is what Aphonso of Kongo did OTL so there's a precedent). I'd suggest Oxford or Cambridge, which both had a reputation of training very good priests and theologians.
Speaking of which: Glen, what are you doing with Tindale and Cranmer?

[Keenir]

It will probably develop in response to the San assetics, if they get there.

and without the San Christians? *is curious*
(read: how much of Catholocism were they^ protesting?)

^ = "they" being "the followers of Wettin".

[Psychomeltdown]

The way I'm seeing the religious situation in Portugal coming out is that the King is in the position of highly favoring the Church of Portugal, which has a lot in common with Wettinism, but also being stripped down and 'streamlined' in the ascetics side of things and being purposefully decentralized and difficult for priests and the such to really gather power among themselves. Basically it's a neutered form of Christianity with a bare bones set up.

The main thing that the 'new' religion will do is create bastardizations of it's core faith over the centuries.

Portugal will become a somewhat religiously divided place, CoP, Catholic, Jewish, and newly converted Africans, with the Jews and CoP being squarely behind the crown and the catholics being more conservative. Possibly the Africans would be more willing to adopt the San Christianity due to their lot in life, most being slaves in Portugal. Wettinites will probably be absorbed by the CoP or Catholics.

[AJNolte]

The way I'm seeing the religious situation in Portugal coming out is that the King is in the position of highly favoring the Church of Portugal, which has a lot in common with Wettinism, but also being stripped down and 'streamlined' in the ascetics side of things and being purposefully decentralized and difficult for priests and the such to really gather power among themselves. Basically it's a neutered form of Christianity with a bare bones set up.

The main thing that the 'new' religion will do is create bastardizations of it's core faith over the centuries.

Portugal will become a somewhat religiously divided place, CoP, Catholic, Jewish, and newly converted Africans, with the Jews and CoP being squarely behind the crown and the catholics being more conservative. Possibly the Africans would be more willing to adopt the San Christianity due to their lot in life, most being slaves in Portugal. Wettinites will probably be absorbed by the CoP or Catholics.


Actually psych, I think your most plausible approach is the Henry VII approach. Leave most things in tact but make Manuel the head of the church, and maybe have a moderately reformist bishop of Porto (or Lisban, or wherever the Portuguese church is headquartered). Have all appointment of bishops go through the king.

Remember: Manuel's a ruler, and doesn't appear to give a fig about theology (from the way you've written him anyway). So aside from asserting his own authority I can't see any reason for him to change the CoP much, at least initially.

You do have a good idea re: having San Christianity spread among the slaves. I would think however, given it's radical egalitarianism, that the slave-owners would make an attempt to stomp it out. But I think this is a very logical direction for the San Christian faith to develop.

[BlackMage]

Alcheringa Hinduism

The predominant religion in Marege after Macassan contact. The uneventful decades of the 1420s and 1430s were dominated primarily by cultural changes amongst Aboriginal tribes, as trading patterns led to a barter-and-fishing economy rather than a predominantly hunter-gatherer economy. This promoted greater cultural exchanges between the Hindu Macassans and the Aboriginal population, leading to a syncretism of religions. Alcheringa Hinduism was the result, incorporating elements of Hinduism and traditional Aboriginal spirituality.

Temples are generally built along Macassan Hindu lines, but the interior is decorated in the traditional 'dot painting' styles of Marege. The priestly language is the developing kriol of northern Marege, incorporating Macassan and Aboriginal terms.