1493 Halicz Moldova/Krimea Discussion

[Keenir]

Okay, I was asked to make this thread, so we can hash out some things...

1. Krimea. Too powerful for Poland-Lithuania to crush on their own. Vassals/Tributaries of the Ottomans. Russia is trying to get them to stop raiding Rus' lands (and I'm working out an idea to convince them to do so - a plan that doesn't involve the extermination of Krimea)

2. Moldovia. Shares a crown with Wallachia now, which puts Moldovia further under Ottoman overlordship (suzenerenty, however its spelled). No known hostilities with Russia. Has agreed to defend the northern border while the Ottoman army is in the south.

[Blackbeard]

Alright our first order of business is Moldavia. Both I and Keenir (Ottomans)
lay claim to it. EDIT: Keenir recently informed me Carpathia has been formed. So who do they pay tribute to? Are they an independent nation? are thye vassals? if so whose are they?

Second, Krimea. This concerns marl, Keenir, and I. The khanate of Krimea pays tribute to the Ottomans (it's run by marl) and also has an incredible military. marl thinks that according to how he made them up it really can't be settled diplomatically. Keenir, we need an Ottoman diplomatic response and (marl) a Krimean one to an offer of vassalization. This is also the time to decide if we go to war. marl, if we got to war we'll need to talk about developing better relationships between Poland.

Gentlemen, lets get to it!

[Keenir]

Alright our first order of business is Moldavia. Both I and Keenir (Ottomans)
lay claim to it yet VulcanTrekkie (Wallachia) is trying to unite with it in the Principality of Carpathia. Is there a way to settle this diplomatically? I don't think the Principality if formed can pay tribute to me and Keenir. Will we allow this Principality to be formed at all?

Emperor Selim I and his successor Isa have no objection to the unification - it simplifies taxes.

Second, Krimea. This concerns marl, Keenir, and I. The khanate of Krimea pays tribute to the Ottomans (it's run by marl) and also has an incredible military. marl thinks that according to how he made them up it really can't be settled diplomatically. Keenir, we need an Ottoman diplomatic response and (marl) a Krimean one to an offer of vassalization.

what year is the offer? that will tell me who's Emperor.

This is also the time to decide if we go to war. marl, if we got to war we'll need to talk about developing better relationships between Poland.

Gentlemen, lets get to it!

we started it - http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=66469

[Blackbeard]

Ok, second thread of Moldavia/krimea.

[Keenir]

This thread discontinued, use Keenirs link or go to the Halicz thread

no reason not to use both - or to have one focus on one subtopic, and the other one on the other.

[Glen]

Okay, I was asked to make this thread, so we can hash out some things...

1. Krimea. Too powerful for Poland-Lithuania to crush on their own. Vassals/Tributaries of the Ottomans. Russia is trying to get them to stop raiding Rus' lands (and I'm working out an idea to convince them to do so - a plan that doesn't involve the extermination of Krimea)

2. Moldovia. Shares a crown with Wallachia now, which puts Moldovia further under Ottoman overlordship (suzenerenty, however its spelled). No known hostilities with Russia. Has agreed to defend the northern border while the Ottoman army is in the south.


Going to merge this with the other thread.

[marl_d]

i haven't done anything really with Crimea to this point...i'm going by OTL and plausibility, personaly i'd like them to weaker, but IOTL Crimea lasted till the 1700's and only weakened due to Russia getting stronger and destroying their economy.

[Keenir]

Ok, second thread of Moldavia/krimea.

okay...
.........

[Keenir]

EDIT: Keenir recently informed me Carpathia has been formed. So who do they pay tribute to? Are they an independent nation? are thye vassals? if so whose are they?

Gentlemen, lets get to it!

now that the kids have married, do they have siblings or relatives who can run a province? (did we retcon the marriages of Moldovian and Wallachian sons to Ottoman daughters?)

[Glen]

now that the kids have married, do they have siblings or relatives who can run a province? (did we retcon the marriages of Moldovian and Wallachian sons to Ottoman daughters?)

No clue. Need VulcanTrekkie to answer those questions and more.

I'd guess that the United Principalities of Carpathia would pick one, and go with them as suzerain to back them up against breaking away from the other.

Given the 'anti-Ottoman League' event before, I'd guess that they would break away from Ottoman suzerainty in favor of Polish-Lithuanian suzerainty, though it appears they will try to hold the Poles at arms length, which might lead to Polish invasion. You guys have got some real details to work out, there.

[Blackbeard]

OK, they married Ottoman duaghters but are a part of the anti-Ottoman League? how's that supposed to work out?

[marl_d]

i've made Vulcan aware of the threads, he'll be on later to post his comments, but as my understanding goes, they are suppose to help the Ottomans with the Malmukes(the second war), in exchange the Ottomans give them more land. i'm not sure how this is going to play out, Keenir and He have to figure that out

[Glen]

OK, they married Ottoman duaghters but are a part of the anti-Ottoman League? how's that supposed to work out?

Apparently they backed away from the issue, and the Ottomans tried throwing chicks at them to patch things up.

Which in retrospect doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense witih regards to the Moldavians....

[Glen]

i've made Vulcan aware of the threads, he'll be on later to post his comments, but as my understanding goes, they are suppose to help the Ottomans with the Malmukes(the second war), in exchange the Ottomans give them more land. i'm not sure how this is going to play out, Keenir and He have to figure that out

Really doesn't need their help, so don't think that's likely.

[Keenir]

but as my understanding goes, they are suppose to help the Ottomans with the Malmukes(the second war), in exchange the Ottomans give them more land

sadly, that detail was swamped away by the wave of retconning surrounding the Mamluk War.

Apparently they backed away from the issue, and the Ottomans tried throwing chicks at them to patch things up.

that's a pretty good description, actually; letting them marry into the family, with the aim of reducing however much they regard Constantinople as a place that doesn't concern them)

Which in retrospect doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense witih regards to the Moldavians....

really? why's that? (do the Moldovians not like foreign women?
(how positively Old Testament of them. :D;))

[VulcanTrekkie45]

Ok, here is how I was playing it. As Moldavia and Wallachia grew closer together, ties to Poland weakened and ties to the Ottomans strengthened. By 1524, Carpathia is formed via a marriage, much like what happened in Spain. They are still vassals of the Ottoman Empire, but are taking steps towards being a completely sovereign nation.

[Glen]

Ok, here is how I was playing it. As Moldavia and Wallachia grew closer together, ties to Poland weakened and ties to the Ottomans strengthened. By 1524, Carpathia is formed via a marriage, much like what happened in Spain. They are still vassals of the Ottoman Empire, but are taking steps towards being a completely sovereign nation.

If you try and pull away Moldova from Poland in favor of the Ottomans, you will probably be invaded by Poland.

If you go closer to the Ottomans, you probably will be left alone so long as you keep paying your tribute and don't go messing around again with others, but they will fight you the moment you try for complete sovereignty.

[Blackbeard]

VulcanTrekkie, what Glen says is true. If you do pull away from me I will invade. It will only make a postponed war go on, now with two fronts. So I guess it's up to VulcanTrekkie to decide whether or not the Krimean War will have two fronts or not. Krimea seems likes its going to be decide by war...between marl d and I on one side and marl d and Keenir on the other;)

[marl_d]

um...acutally this war could work, if we do it as part of my planed War of the Khans during the late 1520's...

though one point about Crimea, they aren't going to fall, defeated and possible vassalage, and some lands absorbed, just remember that Russia and Poland/Lith were fairly bitter enemies in OTL and they aren't going to Let Poland gain any more land than they already have...Russia's intent will be to keep the Crimean's from raiding Southern Russia for Slaves.

[Keenir]

just remember that Russia and Poland/Lith were fairly bitter enemies in OTL and they aren't going to Let Poland gain any more land than they already have...Russia's intent will be to keep the Crimean's from raiding Southern Russia for Slaves.

maybe if you point them towards Poland...
:D

[marl_d]

maybe if you point them towards Poland...
:D

yeah...i was thinking more of more protection along the southern boarder, minor skirmishes and forcing them else where for their slaves

[Blackbeard]

Well then, I guess Poland will have to beef up protection along Lithuanian/Krimean border

[marl_d]

well most of that isn't till the mid to late 1520's

[Blackbeard]

Well, VT still hasn't posted what he's going to do about Carpathia's allegiance

[VulcanTrekkie45]

Well, VT still hasn't posted what he's going to do about Carpathia's allegiance

As I stated in my previous post, allegiances are moving away from Poland and towards Constantinople. However, Carpathia is also taking steps towards becoming a soveriegn nation altogether.

[Blackbeard]

OK well that means an invasion sometime soon, and unless the Ottomans don't care (Keenir?) a war. Also if your intentions of sovereignity reach the Ottomans you'll probably get crushed by Keenir.

[marl_d]

unless he's planing on doing it soon, i don't see the Carpathian's going independent for at least another 20 years at the earliest...just be warned that if Poland does invade, Russia would be there to protect it's Slavic brothers, plus you'd have the Ottomans and Crimean's there too...

[Keenir]

OK well that means an invasion sometime soon, and unless the Ottomans don't care (Keenir?) a war.

as long as Carpathia is part of the Ottoman Empire, they are under Ottoman protection -- and that includes the Crimea involved in that protecting.

Also if your intentions of sovereignity reach the Ottomans you'll probably get crushed by Keenir.

even better: if they become independent, I'll invite everyone to invade Carpathia.

[Blackbeard]

Gah!!! Looks like I won't be invading Carpathia without an invitation from Keenir... I don't think Poland and Lithuania can handle Russia, Krimea, Carpathia, and the Ottoman empire at the same time.

[marl_d]

probably not...but doesn't mean you can't get allies, and do it while Russia is occupied else where

[Blackbeard]

OK, who controls Brandenburg?

[Glen]

OK, who controls Brandenburg?

Analytical Engine