1493 Putting Poland Up To Speed

[Blackbeard]

1493- John Albert reorganizes Poland, Moldavia, and Lithuania. He puts in a new conscription policy, allwoing men to from 16 up to be recruited, to speed up a process of building an army.

1495- As the Polish noblemen grow increasingly unruly, the Seim threatens to withdraw funding for John Albert's large army. He sees the consequences of an unfinished army, and so establsihes a reward system for good deeds done, giving parcels of land and other gifts for good behavior. He also puts military service as a large reward. He forces allows Moldavia to stay in the Anti-Ottoman League, for the sake of having allies in case of attack.

1497- John Albert begins negotiations with the Khanate of Krimea. (Diplomats)

1501- Poland vassalizes the Khanate of Krimea. John Albert looks East and makes plans for the vassalization of the other Khanates.

1504- Lithuanian and Polish army units make their way into the decaying Golden Horde's territory. There are some skirmishes, but some are not met with resistance.

1509- Poland vassalizes the Golden Horde.

1514- The Khanate of Astrakhan refuseses diplomatic vassalization. John Albert launches a military campaign.

1519- After the campaign slows, John Albert increases the military pressure, crushing the Khanate by brute military force.

1520- Poland begins rebuilding its military using men from the Astrakhan.

[Keenir]

1497- John Albert begins negotiations with the Khanate of Krimea. (Diplomats)

1501- Poland vassalizes the Khanate of Krimea. John Albert looks East and makes plans for the vassalization of the other Khanates.

my geography's not that good, but....don't you have to go through Russia to get to the Krimea?

just wondering.

[Blackbeard]

No its connected to Lithuania check this. (www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm)

[Glen]

1493- John Albert reorganizes Poland, Moldavia, and Lithuania.

First problem. You do not directly control Modavia. That participant has been moving Moldavia closer to Wallachia. You need to have your reorganization acknowledge and account for that.

He puts in a new conscription policy, allowoing men to from 16 up to be recruited, to speed up a process of building an army.

Disallowed. Conscription wasn't really invented until the French Revolution. This is WAAYYY too close to the POD for such an innovation.

Having said that, give it a couple decades and have some new person not from OTL or an OTL person who has gone through significant changes invent the idea. Machiavelli apparently developed some thoughts in this regard.

Note, however, that conscription could well trigger revolt.

1495- As the Polish noblemen grow increasingly unruly, the Seim threatens to withdraw funding for John Albert's large army. He sees the consequences of an unfinished army, and so establsihes a reward system for good deeds done, giving parcels of land and other gifts for good behavior. He also puts military service as a large reward.

This part's reasonable. You can start building a large army without conscription, though its going to cost money.

He forces allows Moldavia to stay in the Anti-Ottoman League, for the sake of having allies in case of attack.

Better! However, with how anti-Ottoman John Albert was OTL, I suggest that you have Poland JOIN the anti-Ottoman League.

1497- John Albert begins negotiations with the Khanate of Krimea. (Diplomats)

1501- Poland vassalizes the Khanate of Krimea. John Albert looks East and makes plans for the vassalization of the other Khanates.

marl d controls Krimea. You need to run past him the results of any diplomatic overtures.

Furthermore, if you succeed, we need to hear from Keenir what the Ottoman response would be.

Lastly, we need to make certain that if you did get it under your vassalage that it wouldn't disrupt what's already been going on in that region in the timeline.

1504- Lithuanian and Polish army units make their way into the decaying Golden Horde's territory. There are some skirmishes, but some are not met with resistance.

1509- Poland vassalizes the Golden Horde.

How?:confused:

1514- The Khanate of Astrakhan refuseses diplomatic vassalization. John Albert launches a military campaign.

1519- After the campaign slows, John Albert increases the military pressure, crushing the Khanate by brute military force.

1520- Poland begins rebuilding its military using men from the Astrakhan.

A bit of a stretch. You're very overextended. Then again, John Albert would likely get that way. Good luck incorporating Astrakhan into your army.:rolleyes:

[Blackbeard]

First problem. You do not directly control Modavia. That participant has been moving Moldavia closer to Wallachia. You need to have your reorganization acknowledge and account for that.
Arrg, I thought they were vassals...anyway, I know who controls Wallachia, and he's trying for a union with Moldavia.

Disallowed. Conscription wasn't really invented until the French Revolution. This is WAAYYY too close to the POD for such an innovation.
Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks Glen, I guess I'll make some changes, motivational speeches?

Having said that, give it a couple decades and have some new person not from OTL or an OTL person who has gone through significant changes invent the idea. Machiavelli apparently developed some thoughts in this regard.

Note, however, that conscription could well trigger revolt.
Well, I might do that, later on, just costs more money to use enlistment.

This part's reasonable. You can start building a large army without conscription, though its going to cost money.
Yayy, I did it right. Had to take care of the unruly nobles thing someway or another.

Better! However, with how anti-Ottoman John Albert was OTL, I suggest that you have Poland JOIN the anti-Ottoman League.
Ah but he's angry about not knowing still, but he might join out of sheer hate for the Turks.

marl d controls Krimea. You need to run past him the results of any diplomatic overtures.
Didn't know that, I'll be sure to do that.

Furthermore, if you succeed, we need to hear from Keenir what the Ottoman response would be.
I'll let him know.

Lastly, we need to make certain that if you did get it under your vassalage that it wouldn't disrupt what's already been going on in that region in the timeline.
OK


How?:confused:
Through Krimea



A bit of a stretch. You're very overextended. Then again, John Albert would likely get that way. Good luck incorporating Astrakhan into your army.:rolleyes:
Exactly, he's going to try some anti-Ottoman allies when or if he gets attacked, after mucking around in Astrakhan with Russia building an army.

[Glen]

Arrg, I thought they were vassals...

Poland AND Lithuania are in union, and yours to guide as you see fit within the bounds of plausibility both with respect to OTL history and what we now have of TTL's history. Moldavia IS under Polish surezainty, but that was never a guarantee of obedience in reality. If you also controlled as a participant Moldavia, you could make them behave as you saw fit. Here, you'll have to work with (or against) the participant controlling Moldavia.

I think the Wallachians are the sticking point here. Moldavia and Wallachia are moving towards unity in a United Principality of Carpathia, but its two constituent parts are under different surezainties, to Poland and the Ottomans respectively. Now then, at this point this could still be considered a personal union, and weirder things have happened than having different overlords for the same personage depending on the title. However, this will likely move them away from the respective surezains and make an attempt for independence, or they have to choose one or the other eventually to have their surezainty under, and then the other nation snubbed is likely to start a war over it. You, Keenir, and our Moldavia/Wallachia participant should try to hammer something out that doesn't disrupt the previous history from 1493-1521. If you can't, let me know the points of contention and I'll arrange to have a resolution.

anyway, I know who controls Wallachia, and he's trying for a union with Moldavia.

Yep, see above.


Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks Glen, I guess I'll make some changes, motivational speeches?

I didn't either precisely, but I had some suspicions given the fact that conscription didn't really get mentioned a lot that I could recall until the 19th century, so I looked it up.

Not motivational speeches....money and the loyalty of your nobles who are supposed to raise a certain quota of forces when their sovereign calls....of course, unfortunately for you, you've got some of the most recalcitrant nobles in Europe. The Seim actually WOULD be a good place for some motivational speeches.


Well, I might do that, later on, just costs more money to use enlistment.

Yes, it does. Welcome to the reality of this era's conflicts.


Yayy, I did it right. Had to take care of the unruly nobles thing someway or another.

Now now, you are at least participating, which is half the battle. Just need to tighten up the reality factor. We all do, frankly.

Ah but he's angry about not knowing still, but he might join out of sheer hate for the Turks.

Whatever. You can join them or go to war over it, since it could be seen as the HRE horning in on your territory. If you want your adventures in the East, you are going to need to secure your other borders and have allies to counter the Turk. Joining this really is your best bet short term.

Exactly, he's going to try some anti-Ottoman allies when or if he gets attacked, after mucking around in Astrakhan with Russia building an army.

I'd suggest trying to get some anti-Ottoman allies BEFORE mucking around with Astrakhan.

[Keenir]

Arrg, I thought they were vassals...anyway, I know who controls Wallachia, and he's trying for a union with Moldavia.

they are vassals - of the Ottomans. (though I (the Ottomans) don't run them)

[Glen]

they are vassals - of the Ottomans. (though I (the Ottomans) don't run them)

Wallachia, definitely. Moldavia is murky at the start of 1493. They have paid tribute on and off, but inthe 1450s struck a deal with the Poles, in the 1490s OTL they would have gone back to the Ottoman sphere, here its less clear what they did, since we had the whole 'anti-Ottoman' on/off thing. I can see both of you claiming surezainty but neither really having it unless you go in and kick butt.

[Blackbeard]

Keenir, I want to propose a meeting, You, I, and VulcanTrekkie. We can work this whole Moldavia thing out.marl d needs to come too, he runs the Krimean khanate which I'm trying to vassalize and we'll need your response.

[Glen]

Keenir, I want to propose a meeting, You, I, and VulcanTrekkie. We can work this whole Moldavia thing out.marl d needs to come too, he runs the Krimean khanate which I'm trying to vassalize and we'll need your response.

Why don't you create a separate thread specifically to work that stuff out, just put in front of the title '1493', or corporate label.:) Once you make it, invite Keenir, VulcanTrekkie, and marl d by PM if they don't chime in elsewhere to say they've seen it and are coming to contribute.

[Blackbeard]

One step ahead of you Glen. It will be called the Diet of Halicz

[Glen]

One step ahead of you Glen. It will be called the Diet of Halicz

Don't need to give it a fancy name. This will be an OOC discussion. You wouldn't get all those people in the same room without a knife fight breaking out.

[marl_d]

i will, but i won't be able to do much till tomorrow

ok, for a couple of comments, the Golden Horde is more or less gone by this time, being absorbed by the remaining Khanates and Russia, also i control the Astrakhan and Kazan Khanate, as well as the Sibir Khanate and am currently working on some plans for them. I don't believe that the Crimean's would submit to the Poles unless they are crushed, but at this point they are almost TOO powerful for the Poles to take on by themselves. before sevarbsky left i we were trying to work out less tenuous relationships between Russia and Lith/Poland, part of that came from the Division of Livonia, and the sale of some land by Lith in exchange for Courtland/Simoland of Livonia due to their financial issues, but he left before we were able to hammer out the sale and what exactly was sold.

Riga is an Open Trade city but i controlled by the Russians

[Glen]

i will, but i won't be able to do much till tomorrow

ok, for a couple of comments, the Golden Horde is more or less gone by this time, being absorbed by the remaining Khanates and Russia,

And thus is fair game for Poland to absorb as well, unless you already wrote that you did in the timeline.

also i control the Astrakhan and Kazan Khanate, as well as the Sibir Khanate and am currently working on some plans for them.

Ah, well, looks like the Russians are going to beat you to it, Blackbeard. If you'd like to try for it opposed in the 1520s, you may. But marl d has the advantage since he can manipulate those areas to his advantage.

I don't believe that the Crimean's would submit to the Poles unless they are crushed, but at this point they are almost TOO powerful for the Poles to take on by themselves. before sevarbsky left i we were trying to work out less tenuous relationships between Russia and Lith/Poland, part of that came from the Division of Livonia, and the sale of some land by Lith in exchange for Courtland/Simoland of Livonia due to their financial issues, but he left before we were able to hammer out the sale and what exactly was sold.

Riga is an Open Trade city but i controlled by the Russians

Well, sounds like this is an area you two can brief each other on.

[Blackbeard]

1493- John Albert reorganizes Poland, Moldavia, and Lithuania.
Begins building an army.

1495- As the Polish noblemen grow increasingly unruly, the Seim threatens to withdraw funding for John Albert's large army. He sees the consequences of an unfinished army, and so establsihes a reward system for good deeds done, giving parcels of land and other gifts for good behavior. He also puts military service as a large reward. He allows Moldavia to stay in the Anti-Ottoman League, for the sake of having allies in case of attack.

1497- John Albert begins negotiations with the Khanate of Krimea. (Diplomats)

[Keenir]

He sees the consequences of an unfinished army, and so establsihes a reward system for good deeds done, giving parcels of land and other gifts for good behavior.

isn't this par for the course when it comes to feudalism?

1497- John Albert begins negotiations with the Khanate of Krimea. (Diplomats)

trying to steal my client state?
:)

[Blackbeard]

isn't this par for the course when it comes to feudalism?
Of course:D



trying to steal my client state?
:)
no sultan, I am, uh, clean up crew, this place is a mess!:p
But seriously, what's your response to my negotiations with the khanate trying to get em to pay tribute to me?

[Keenir]

But seriously, what's your response to my negotiations with the khanate trying to get em to pay tribute to me?

if you're not doing a good job of keeping it exceedingly secret (which is a tough thing to do in an age of foot messengers), then I threaten war in retaliation...you back down*.

* = I'd suggest letting it be a sore point to your lord of Poland (possibly something the Seim remind him of from time to time).....the alternative to Poland backing down for now is that the 20+ years after your attempted negotiations with the Khanate, gets retconned. that's the Smashing of Venice, the Conquest of Arabia & Yemen, and yet another retcon of the Mamluk War.

[marl_d]

personally i think you need to wait on the Crimean thing...push it back to the late 20's maybe early 30's...I know i haven't done much with them yet...but don't worry things are going to be heating up for Russia and Co soon

[Blackbeard]

Well, I guess we will back down, retcons are annoying.:rolleyes:

[Blackbeard]

1493- John Albert reorganizes Poland, Moldavia, and Lithuania.
Begins building an army.

1495- As the Polish noblemen grow increasingly unruly, the Seim threatens to withdraw funding for John Albert's large army. He sees the consequences of an unfinished army, and so establsihes a reward system for good deeds done, giving parcels of land and other gifts for good behavior. He also puts military service as a large reward. He allows Moldavia to stay in the Anti-Ottoman League, for the sake of having allies in case of attack.

1497- John Albert begins negotiations with the Khanate of Krimea. (Diplomats)

1498-Poland backs down negotiations in Krimea after a threat of war from the Ottoman empire.

1499- John Albert enters Poland into the Anti-Ottoman League.

1501- Polish and Lithuanian troops invade Mazovia.

1503- The Polish kingdom spreads into the Southwestern corner of the decaying Golden Horde's lands.

1504- Poland spreads out further, current borders are Northeast with Riazan. East with the Khantes in the Golden Horde lands. Southeast with the Ottomans and Astrakhan, South with Krimea, and now Lithuanian territory spreads all the way to Krimea, giving a Western border with Moldavia.

[marl_d]

ok, after reading up on the Khanates, the Golden Horde was fully absorbed by the Crimean's by 1502 in OTL...and as i've not done anything to change things with them, it still stands.

[Glen]

ok, after reading up on the Khanates, the Golden Horde was fully absorbed by the Crimean's by 1502 in OTL...and as i've not done anything to change things with them, it still stands.

Or he could just beat them to it by moving his event to 1501....

[marl_d]

true, but i meant as it is now

[Blackbeard]

Okay change the absorbtion to 1501, change the borders to 1502.

[marl_d]

ok...i was just reading on wiki


The further extension of the Muscovite dominion was facilitated by the death of Casimir IV in 1492, when Poland and Lithuania once more parted company. The throne of Lithuania was now occupied by Casimir's son Alexander, a weak and lethargic prince so incapable of defending his possessions against the persistent attacks of the Muscovites that he attempted to save them by a matrimonial compact, and wedded Helena, Ivan's daughter.

this is pre-POD...blackbeard, you're going to have to reunite Poland and Lith, probably after Alexander's death

[Blackbeard]

Ohh **** oh *******************
That pretty much sums it up...so when you think old Al should die?

[Glen]

ok...i was just reading on wiki


The further extension of the Muscovite dominion was facilitated by the death of Casimir IV in 1492, when Poland and Lithuania once more parted company. The throne of Lithuania was now occupied by Casimir's son Alexander, a weak and lethargic prince so incapable of defending his possessions against the persistent attacks of the Muscovites that he attempted to save them by a matrimonial compact, and wedded Helena, Ivan's daughter.

this is pre-POD...blackbeard, you're going to have to reunite Poland and Lith, probably after Alexander's death

Yes, there is an error in some of the information. It appears that indeed Poland and Lithuania were seperate at the time of the POD and only reunited with the death of John Albert in 1501.

As I understand it, Poland is Blackbeard's and Lithuania is AJ's now?:confused:

[Glen]

ok...i was just reading on wiki


The further extension of the Muscovite dominion was facilitated by the death of Casimir IV in 1492, when Poland and Lithuania once more parted company. The throne of Lithuania was now occupied by Casimir's son Alexander, a weak and lethargic prince so incapable of defending his possessions against the persistent attacks of the Muscovites that he attempted to save them by a matrimonial compact, and wedded Helena, Ivan's daughter.

this is pre-POD...blackbeard, you're going to have to reunite Poland and Lith, probably after Alexander's death


we could just kill off Alexander sometime in 1493 or shortly thereafter; pretty sure the throne would go to John Albert (someone check, please).

[marl_d]

that would mess this event up

1499 Eastern Europe:

Russia and Livonia go to war over demands for back taxes and the closing of the Hansa office in Novgorod.

Ivan’s daughter, Helena wife of Alexander of Lithuania comes to visit him and try and talk him out of attacking her husband, instead offering to sell a portion of the lands that Ivan claimed where Russian and also promising not to intervene in any war with Livonia and in exchange they would get Courland and Semigallia.

Russia contacts the Kalmar Union about a partition of Livonia. It is decided that the Union will take Estonia, but Estonia will be added onto the Duchy of Finland, ruled by Duke Sten Sture, under the sovereignty of the Kalmar Union.

Ivan proposes leaving the port city of Riga semi-autonomous to enable trade throughout the region, but under the influence of Russia.


in particular the highlighted parts

[Glen]

that would mess this event up




in particular the highlighted parts

Good catch.

[Blackbeard]

Aaaarrg!:(:(:(