Cold War ISOT

[David Howery]

suppose that in 1953, during the height of the Cold War, the White House and an area 200 miles around it was sent back in time to 1000 BC (same geographical location). Simultaneously, the Kremlin and an area 200 miles around it are sent back to the exact same time, but in their corresponding geographical location. Thus, we have the leaders of democracy sitting in their city on the Potomac, and the leaders of Marxism in their city in what will someday be Russia, both surrounded by nothing but wilderness and primitive people.
What will happen next? Will the cold war end out of lack of interest, or will both sides busily recruit all the natives they can find, preparing for a Bronze age WW3?

[Amerigo Vespucci]

200 miles is pretty big. That'll take in Annapolis, Baltimore, most of Virginia, part of West Virginia, up into Pennsylvania--not sure if it would reach Philly or Richmond, but it's close either way.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Upon consulting a map, Richmond would be included, as would Hampton Roads, Philadelphia, Frederick, Gettysburg, and much of the Eastern Shore of Maryland.

[RMG]

What would the Kremlin get?

[David Howery]

yeah, I wanted to give each side some industry and population... otherwise, they'd just starve to death..

[Amerigo Vespucci]

What would the Kremlin get?

Tula, Yaroslavl, Kaluga, Vyazma, Rzev, Rjazan, and Novomoskovsk. The problem with the Soviet Union is that outside the cities, there's not really much of anything. The Soviet Union does have a plus in that by operating at a lower technology level generally, it will be easier to adjust to a world of 1000 BC.

In general, the Cold War will stop in its tracks, as both sides are too busy trying to survive. The USA, with a much larger up-time population, will have somewhat of an advantage, but this will be more than balanced by the fact that they will also have to feed that larger population, a situation which could easily degenerate into chaos and destruction. The Soviet Union's centralized nature will aid in adjustment, particularly since the higher leadership came along. The Soviets will take an early lead, but the US's larger uptime resource and population base will take the lead once food production and distribution problems are hammered out.

[robertp6165]

Well, given the large area being ISOTed, there will certainly be enough scientists and technicians available to recreate a version of the modern world within a relatively short time. There will be a temporary disruption of life as the industries and services are re-established, perhaps lasting several years, but it won't last very long. The chemists at DuPont in Delaware will rapidly recreate modern gunpowder, and at least some of the Pennsylvania steel mills will be ISOT, so the military is going to see no significant decline in effectiveness, at least in America (I am not sure about the situation in Russia...are any major Russian chemical plants within 200 miles of Moscow?). Also, the populations of the transported areas will be so large...numbering literally in the millions...that the local nomads (in the case of Russia) or Indians (in the case of America) won't pose much of a threat either. Given all of these facts, I don't see the two transported regions having to adapt much to the bronze age in the long term...the bronze age will have to adapt to them.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Tula's a decent-sized industrial center, or at least it was during the 1940s and 50s, so the Soviets won't be sitting in the dark for too long, either.

[David Howery]

OTOH, all those millions of people have to be fed too. Think there will be enough modern farm equipment, seed, and livestock in the area? If not, the US will be in a particularly dicey situation, as no one around them has any either. Russia could conceivably make contacts with bronze age people to get cattle, sheep, hogs, and grain.

[robertp6165]

OTOH, all those millions of people have to be fed too. Think there will be enough modern farm equipment, seed, and livestock in the area? If not, the US will be in a particularly dicey situation, as no one around them has any either. Russia could conceivably make contacts with bronze age people to get cattle, sheep, hogs, and grain.

Well, as far as America goes, Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Northern Virginia are prime farming regions. There will be plenty of farming equipment, seeds, livestock, and whatnot there. There will also be a substantial fishing fleet which will be ISOT along with the ports at places like Baltimore. Besides that, the surrounding forests are full of game...so quite a lot of food can be had simply by organized hunting. So yes, the food situation could be dicey for some short time...but not for long. Another option they have that the Russians don't...the port cities will have a merchant marine associated with them. If they have to, they can sail over to places like Egypt and trade for grain....

[Norman]

200 miles from Washington DC also gets a good portion of the coast with Naval vessels and fishing fleets (at least in 1000 BC), while I do not believe that 200 mile from Moscow will provide much in the way a sea power.

Further, as time goes on and the two sides contact eachother, much of the previous competitiveness will have vanished. If being instantly transported 3000 years into the past doesn't convince these two nations that ASBs or god exists, nothing will.

[LDoc]

wait are you including such things as the earth and sea itself with in 200 miles? Cause then the situation could be much worse for the US. the land it has has mostly been run into the ground because of years of tabacco farming. Only Penn could be of any use. Also their will be a lack of wild life and lots of pollution that could destory the land and sea wildlife much farther out.

[David Howery]

yes, like in most ISOTs, the land and sea go with it. True, the ISOTed areas would be heavily polluted, but the air and water pollution would flat out disappear into the pristine areas around it. Of course, the two areas could pump out more pollution and ruin more area around it... except that oil is going to run out before too long (no wells around anywhere).
Hmm... sounds like I unintentionally gave the US the advantage....

[Amerigo Vespucci]

yes, like in most ISOTs, the land and sea go with it. True, the ISOTed areas would be heavily polluted, but the air and water pollution would flat out disappear into the pristine areas around it. Of course, the two areas could pump out more pollution and ruin more area around it... except that oil is going to run out before too long (no wells around anywhere).
Hmm... sounds like I unintentionally gave the US the advantage....

I really don't think so. The US is saddled with an enormous population that it has to care for and feed. In addition, it must develop the oil fields in the non-ISOTed Pennsylvania ASAP, as that's where the large portion of it's technological advantage lies, in the internal combustion engine. The Soviet Union is in much better shape immediately, what with its centralized government, lower population to care for, and about the same food supply. The Soviet Union will probably make out better at transition, but if the United States doesnt degenerate into a mob looking for food, they'll eventually catch up and pass the Soviet Union. The US does have an advantage in the availability of water transport, as some elements of the US navy will have ISOTed, but overall the Soviet Union has the initial advantage. It all depends on how quickly the US can rebuild oil and food supplies.

[Grey Wolf]

IMHO the USA has the huge advantage here as it has the poets, dockyards and fleets. It can impose its presence upon the Eastern seaboard, and can project its power with much more certainty than the Soviets can. In addition, it can get access to natural resources more easily, send out expeditionary forces to exploit them etc. It can even CONSERVE its fossil fuels and do this - there would not be too much of a problem sending a sailing ship up the coast with a crew of drillers onboard. In comparison the Soviet Union is going to have to rely on airpower - without roads its vehicles will just vanish into the morass, apart from the tracked ones which have some kind of chance. But use of airpower is far less economical than use of seapower in terms of returns per trip, and cannot be replaced by less fuel-hungry technology (I can't see a sudden Balloon Corp !). The USA can fish and feed itself with greater certainty than the USSR can, and in just a couple of years I can see a strong US state stretching along the E coast in comparison to a fractured and weakening Soviet state

Grey Wolf

[Norman]

Don't forget, the weather of the US for the two hundred miles around Washington is also better than the weather around Moscow. Also, with respect to the food supply issue, at this time in PA, MD and Delaware were still largely agricultural, and probably able to serve the needs of the populations that would go across.

[Leej]

The US has the advantage if it gets through the 'OMG WHAT JUST HAPPENED!' stage intact. America is a better place then Russia and they have the higher tech and all that.

[David Howery]

Grey> the US has the advantage because it has poets , dockyards and fleets? I'll assume you meant ports instead of poets.... or do you have some idea that poets are extremely vital to the survival of modern society?
;)

[Amerigo Vespucci]

I'm revising my thoughts a bit. After closer examination of the map and the scale of the map, Norfolk, Newport News, Trenton, Roanoke, Harrisburg, and Dover are all within range of the ISOT as well. This puts the United States in a much better position, as it has access to the largest military naval base on the American East Coast, as well as having access to the farms of Delaware, southern Virginia, and the Eastern Shore. There will still be massive problems with food production and distribution, as the increased farming area won't come close to making up for the larger population, but the larger military presence will help expansion following the ISOT and the solving of food and petroleum problems.

The Soviet Union will come close to being self-sufficient in food, but has no easy access to petroleum products at all, unlike the United States, which can exploit the oil fields of Pennsylvania just north of the ISOT. The Soviet Union will also have a larger non-nuclear military component than the United States, particularly in ground forces. However, since hostilities are unlikely to break out for several years if at all, this probably will not be a factor, except where it considers keeping order in the ISOTed area.

[robertp6165]

IMHO the USA has the huge advantage here as it has the poets, dockyards and fleets. It can impose its presence upon the Eastern seaboard, and can project its power with much more certainty than the Soviets can. In addition, it can get access to natural resources more easily, send out expeditionary forces to exploit them etc. It can even CONSERVE its fossil fuels and do this - there would not be too much of a problem sending a sailing ship up the coast with a crew of drillers onboard. In comparison the Soviet Union is going to have to rely on airpower - without roads its vehicles will just vanish into the morass, apart from the tracked ones which have some kind of chance. But use of airpower is far less economical than use of seapower in terms of returns per trip, and cannot be replaced by less fuel-hungry technology (I can't see a sudden Balloon Corp !). The USA can fish and feed itself with greater certainty than the USSR can, and in just a couple of years I can see a strong US state stretching along the E coast in comparison to a fractured and weakening Soviet state

Grey Wolf

The sea advantage will be vital. There are areas of the world in 1,000 BC which are already producing a grain surplus and which can be reached by sea...Egypt, for instance. The Soviets are closer, but hemmed in by forest and undeveloped steppelands. A steamship can reach Egypt from the United States 2 or 3 weeks. Also, they will know where the various oil reserves are, for example in eastern Texas and Louisiana. They can just send a colonization force there, take possession of the oilfields, and start drilling.

[Brilliantlight]

I don't see why the USSR would have the advantage in food. The US has lots of food in storage which could last until it gets some oil wells running particularly if the US starts rationing food for the interim. The USSR had to import food so it is in worse shape then the US in that regard.

[Anthony Appleyard]

The non-ISOTed area round Moscow would likely be pine and birch forest thinly inhabited by hunters or reindeer nomads speaking languages distantly related to Lappish and Finnish.

[Nik]

If Kremlin lose comms, will they launch surviving ICBMs East, West and/or South ?? (Yes, I know, North OTP gets them West sooner... ;-)

As CNN is gone, they *may* take it as a North Korean first-strike -- or guess OBL has nuked US West Coast...

Assuming the silos stay shut, and the recon aircraft don't collide, how flexible are their mind-sets ?? I'd expect US would absorb scenario a bit quicker and react responsibly, but perhaps that's just my Western Arrogance...

Given the population densities, I fear the US could get very hungry, very quickly. After the first months, dunno what most of the Russians could eat, but remember there's an un-fished Atlantic off US...

Nik

[Thande]

OBL isn't born yet, Nik - this is still 1953. ;)

[Dave Howery]

also, no CNN... are there even ICBMs and silos at this time?

[Brilliantlight]

also, no CNN... are there even ICBMs and silos at this time?

No, I am virtually certain that bombers are all there is.

[Brilliantlight]

Given the population densities, I fear the US could get very hungry, very quickly. After the first months, dunno what most of the Russians could eat, but remember there's an un-fished Atlantic off US...

Nik

Again, the US has a huge amount of food stored in grain silos and the ilk and did in 1953. That would hold a while with food rationing. Probably long enough for some oil wells to start pumping oil and some oil being refined. I imagine further oil production/transport and farming being at the head of the line in rationed oil.

[Thyme]

Grain silos tend to be in food producing areas. They're in Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, not maryland. I'm not saying there aren't a few of them, but not many.

[Brilliantlight]

Grain silos tend to be in food producing areas. They're in Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, not maryland. I'm not saying there aren't a few of them, but not many.

Quite a few in Pennsylvania and Virginia.